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Ayy....I knew this would happen.........Okay...Pinkspider, please stop provoking us. You know that we'll just argue back.

I wasnt trying to provoke you! The reason I posted the pictures in the first place was to ranma's comment. She asked when and where Cloud showed passion towards Aerith and thats what I showed. I didnt say even mention CxT but I guess you assumed I meant CxT didnt have any passion scenes so lunarsong wanted to defend that. It was a missunderstanding you know I just wanted to reply to ramna's comment thats all : D I'm not trying to provoke you. And I'm trying to make you angry sweatdrop So if it sounds that way I'm sorry! But what I'm sick of you saying I twist facts when you say lies like: "Cloud has slept with her" and "SE has claimed that Cloud and Tifa should be together" because thats obviously not true and telling me to the pay attention is just a bad case of hypocricy.

I commented on the pictures to say how they werent related to passion, I'm trying to insult your scenes, as I said I said how I dont think they relate to passion. Everything you commented to realted to other themes such "understanding, care, desperation." but the point was discussing passion. So basically thats it.

Barret lol jk xp

Here let me donate these pictures for this thread 3nodding :

Oh no you couldn’t try to see it from another point of view because that might actually make you unbiased and we can’t have that. I know, I bet you're thinking "Who is she to say I'm biased when she's bised herself." True I do hate Aeris and love Tifa but at least I'm not dumb enough to ignore the obvious. As far as the first disk is concerned I think Cloud liked both Aeris and Tifa equally, as far as romance is concerned. However there is no way he could LOVE anyone at that point in time. People seem to forget that the guy was an emotional wreck, not to mention that Sephiroth kept messing with his head. Having true love for someone is making a commitment. There is no way Cloud could commit to anyone being as psychologically damaged as he was. Perhaps if Aeris were still around after he had gotten him memories back, it would be a different story but that's not what happened. For the sake of argument, even assuming that he was fine (Which he wasn't) He didn't have enough progression with either girl in the first disk to constitute any kind love. Anyway that's how I see it.



There are actually two times you can sleep with her but one is optional. The first is under the high wind and the second one is in the beginning at the 7th heaven. Cloud has the option to say "Next to you of course." or something like that. BTW seeping together doesn't always mean having sex.



In CoT duh.

"Everything starts now. A new..." Cloud looked for the right words, "A new life."
"I'm going to live. I think that's the only way I can be forgiven. We've been through... all sorts of things."
"I guess you're right..."
"But when I think about how many times I've thought about starting a new life, it's funny."
"Why?"
"I've always failed to do it."
"That's not funny."
"...I think it will be all right this time."
Cloud became very quiet for a moment. Then he said, "Because you're always with me."
"I haven't always been with you."
"That's how it will be starting from tomorrow," Cloud replied smiling again.

Cloud only says this to Tifa. Not Aeris, not Yuffie, not Barret, or Red 13; just Tifa. He wants to start a new life with her by his side. How much more proof do you need. Oh and please don't give me that whole "Oh but when Barret leaves their relationship falls apart." Wrong! Cloud, Tifa, and Marlene live happily for several months after he left. (That’s 7 months or more). Also the only reason he gets emo isn't because he realizes he loves Aeris. Think about it. He's happily living with Tifa for almost two years and then suddenly wants forgiveness form Aeris. Why? Well, seeing as he most likely has Geostigma at this time perhaps he thinks it's his karma for not protecting her and perhaps Zack as well. (Which is why he keeps asking for forgiveness) It doesn't make any since that he would be living happily and raising two children with a women he has promised to live his life with and then suddenly out of nowhere decide he's in love with another women. That’s just stupid.



Sweetheart/lover/girlfriend is the same thing. Sweetheart is an old fashioned term for girlfriend/boyfriend. My grandparents along with a other old people use it all the time to describe their relationships. Don't believe me, here are two dictionary terms.

1. Somebody who is a boyfriend, girlfriend, or lover
2. Used as a term of endearment, usually addressed to a lover or child

Unless Tifa's a child, I don't think that applies to her.



It's in the Reunion Files Book.



Being immature isn't helping you're side, just so you know.



It seems like the only parts you pay attention to is the Cleris parts.



Yeah that was from years ago, before AC. And that idea must have been promising, since they never made it and never plan on making it.



Oh lets have a list of lies that you have said

“Cloud met Aeris in her flower fields at the end of AC”
“The Calling is a Cloud and Aeris music video”
“Cloud and Tifa’s relationship breaks up right after Barret leaves”
“Cloud runs and hides from Tifa in Aeris’s church because he loves Aeris”
“Cloud wants Aeris's forgiveness because he's really in love with her”
“Because Amano drew them together Cloud and Aeris are cannon.”
“Pink and red means love while Black means depression which means Aeris is Cloud's love interest not Tifa.”
"Cloud and Aeris are cannon in KH so it's evidence that they are also cannon in FF7"

So who's the real fool. And just in case you didn't get it- that was a rhetorical question.

Well did you know that "I want to meet you" in japanese context also pertains to a sexual request? So their is a possibility for Cloud and Aerith you see? But the point is, I dont go around saying they slept with each other.
Ok well if you meant not having sex then you should have used a different choice of words to make it more clear.



You know its funny how you used CoT and say its acceptable yet MotP is a "platonic novella where Aerith is jealous"? Reguardless you better have time to read this next part xD

Cloud also comforts Tifa when she is letting out her grief over Aerith's death, putting his hand on her shoulder and 'holding onto her firmly as if he didn't want her to go anywhere'. He suggests, with a blush, that he'll help her remember how she used to be cheerful and strong.

So as we can see by the examples above, there are hints at the beginning of CoT that Cloud is considering becoming closer to Tifa romantically. However, by the end of the novella, things have changed.

What's the reason for the change? Well, some may chalk it down to Geostigma, but I don't think that it can be dismissed as only that. I think it's to do with his grief over Aerith more than depression over Geostigma. And also that Tifa isn't capable of healing Cloud's wounds.

But I'm getting a little ahead of myself here. Let's backtrack a little.

Okay, in my opinion, it would be a valid statement to say that Cloud doesn't really understand Tifa, even after all they've been through. He comments to her that 'it's not like [her] to be troubled by [her] thoughts'. Barret thinks differently.

"It won't be tough. If Tifa doesn't work she'll end up thinkin' about all sorts of things. She'll end up not being able to do anything."

So who's more correct? It's plain to see in the game and novella that Tifa is troubled by her thoughts constantly. She feels that she's selfish, she feels she has sinned because of the Plate crushing Sector Seven of Midgar as a result of AVALANCHE's actions. So it seems that Barret understands Tifa more than Cloud does.

When Cloud, Tifa and Barret are busy rebuilding the Seventh Heaven, they all share a close friendship. They drink together, Barret helps with the construction, Cloud buys the ingredients for the drinks and meals. They share a peaceful, happy time together. But when the bar opens and Barret leaves on his journey, things start to go downhill. It's as though Barret is what's tying the family together, and when he leaves, things fall apart between Cloud and Tifa, even though Barret told them to 'keep the family together'.

It begins when Cloud brings Fenrir back to Seventh Heaven and tells Tifa about his new job as a courier. He's been doing it for a while, but has kept it a secret from Tifa. This in itself seems quite strange, if we're to believe that Cloud and Tifa are close and understand each other.

Cloud gazed at Tifa like a kid who got his secrets found out.

"Why are you looking at me like that?

"Well... I'm sorry I kept quiet about it."

"About what?"

"Doing what I wanted."

Cloud is sorry for not telling Tifa that he was doing what he wanted? Wouldn't Cloud have discussed this with Tifa to start with instead of keeping it from her? When he apologises, she laughs and thinks that he's like a kid. We can gather from Cloud keeping it from her that he didn't expect her to react like that. If he really knew her so well, wouldn't he be able to guess how she'd react more accurately?

"It may have been a little sad that Cloud had found another world that I didn't know about but, I thought the fact that his world was expanding should be welcomed. Yes, it was similar to the feelings a mother would have. Tifa walked Cloud outside and was enjoying the new feeling that was blooming in her. "

This really suggests that Tifa and Cloud are more like family, like brother and sister, rather than like lovers. Tifa feels motherly towards Cloud, (which is a sweet touch) and is proud of him, but there is no mention of any romantic feelings on either side - even though we're seeing events through Tifa, she never mentions her love for Cloud, or her hopes for a relationship. It looks like family is more important to her than a romantic relationship.

So, after Strife Delivery Service gets underway, the family life changes greatly. It '[isn't] too good'. Cloud is always on the road and never at home, and though Tifa closes the bar so that she and Marlene can spend family time together with Cloud, he doesn't stop his job to spend time with them. Marlene notices a change in Cloud at this time. She says that he 'sometimes looked up at the sky and didn't listen to her'. Maybe Cloud is lost in memories of those he's lost when he does this? It's likely. It may be during this time when Cloud begins to visit Aerith's church again. He calls the church 'his place' later on in the novella, so we can gather that he's visited there quite frequently. (He is on a visit to the church when he finds Denzel.)

On a day when the bar is closed, Tifa finds a delivery slip for a bouquet of flowers that Cloud took to the Forgotten City for Elmyra.

Tifa put the slip away with the others as if nothing happened. But she was trembling severely. Transporting mail around the world meant he was travelling around his past too. She knew that Cloud was in great pain because he couldn't protect Aerith. Cloud was on the verge of overcoming it but now, going back to the place where he and Aerith got seperated meant that his sorrow and regret was going to tear his heart again.

Notice how it isn't 'the place where the team and Aerith got separated', but only where 'he and Aerith got seperated'? This implies that Tifa recognises that though they all lost her, Aerith was someone who was very dear to Cloud in particular. She fears that visiting this place will be painful enough to actually set Cloud back to square one where his grief and sorrow is concerned.

After this, Tifa gets angry with Cloud when he rejects her company while he's drinking.

Hearing that, Tifa lost control and said, "Then drink in your room."

Instead of persevering and being patient with Cloud (considering she knows that he's delivered the bouquet and is most likely hurting), she sends him away. It seems that she doesn't know how best to deal with Cloud's grief, and doesn't know how to help him through it. She know's he's struggling with his sorrow, but she can't comfort him. In fact, she has to 'force herself to talk to him' for Marlene's sake. Doesn't really sound like they're happy together.

When Cloud finds Denzel, things seem to pick up. Cloud spends more time with the family now that Denzel is there, and 'the silly little conversations he had with Tifa' are back. (Aww.) We soon learn the reason that Cloud brought Denzel back (when there were many orphans in the same situation as the little boy) and is so fond of him. Cloud begins by saying that the problem he has isn't resolved because that can't 'retrieve lost lives'. He may be talking about not just Aerith, but Zack and others too, but Aerith is the person who immediately comes to mind when Cloud mentions 'lost lives'. That is what is affecting him the most, I think.

Cloud then confesses to Tifa that he found Denzel at 'my place', Aerith's church, and that he thought that Aerith had led the child to him. This seems to by why Cloud is so close to Denzel, because he thinks that looking after him is what Aerith would have wanted.

When Tifa suggests that they both go to Aerith's church next time, Cloud is 'dubious'. This might be because he didn't expect her to suggest such a thing, or it might just be that he likes to be alone with his memories of Aerith there.

Tifa then tells him that 'Aerith didn't bring the child to [him]. Aerith brought that child to [them].' In response, Cloud smiles kindly. Tifa feels that everything will be fine. However, a few days later, Cloud leaves.

Days after having that conversation, Cloud left. I wonder if that smile he showed me was an illusion. After kissing the sleeping children on the face, I went into Cloud's office. I brushed away the dust on the family photo we took then tried calling him. After several rings, the messaging service took over.

This must be when Advent Children begins. We know that Cloud has contracted Geostigma, and this is part of the reason why he leaves. But if Cloud was deeply in love with Tifa, wouldn't he want to spend as much time as possible with her before Geostigma killed him? Wouldn't he fight it as hard as he could, as Denzel does, for her sake?

He doesn't, and to me, this is what really sheds light on things where the love triangle is concerned.

He leaves Seventh Heaven, Tifa, his family, and goes to live in Aerith's church. The place they first introduced themselves, and the place where he crashed through the roof into her flowerbed. The place where he agreed to protect her and be her bodyguard. I think this is the place where he feels closest to Aerith, and the place he wants to be after he learns he's dying. Not with his family, but with Aerith.

I think the jist of it is that no matter how many opportunities they have to get any farther in a relationship, in the end it doesnt work out because they dont understand each other.



Ok this right here wikipedia vandalism xD You dont get it do you? Pertaining to the context of how koibito was used they did not say Tifa is Cloud's koibito, for gods sake! It was used to describe attributes of her character saying she's like a mother like a lover etc etc. But does that mean she IS a mother, or she IS a lover? No, its saying how she is LIKE one. Cloud was not even mentioned!! And if she was his koibito why the hell is there a LTD?! No matter how many times you try to not listen that doesnt stop the fact that this koibito thing has been blown out of proportion and lost its initial meaning.



quotes?



It seems like the only parts you pay attention to is the Cloti parts.



Hmm, well what about KH, Tactics, Itadaki street? They all seem like side stories to me?



“Cloud met Aeris in her flower fields at the end of AC”
They did in the credits did they not?

“The Calling is a Cloud and Aeris music video”
It pertains far more to CxA then to CxT and cloud and aerith are featured when the song is playing. But I dont every remember saying it was a CxA "music video".

“Cloud and Tifa’s relationship breaks up right after Barret leaves”
It was a gradual process, read what I wrote about CoT earlier.

I have to go so I can finish whatever this was later.

Crap I've been overloaded with homewrok latly. You know, mid turms and all. Anyway back on track.



First of all, we all know that it wasn't a sexual request because then it wouldn't make sense with what she says in The Madden. Second, even if it were a "sexual request" (which it wasn't) Cloud didn't even know what the hell she was talking about. He kept saying that he didn't understand. And even assuming that it was sexual and Cloud did understand what she was saying, nothing is ever said or shown to support this. However the seen under the high wind is actually shown to the player and the optional narrative is actually spoken from Clouds mouth. It's the same with the ending of AC. Cloud is NEVER shown with Aeris at any time. Their never once even in the same frame during the whole ending, however Cloud is actually seen in the picture with Tifa and everyone else at the party.



And I find it funny that Cleris use "The Madden" to support Cloud and Aeris since Aeris gave all of her feelings for Cloud to Tifa (Which Cleris like to forget about) Also she was jealous, because she said so herself.

In truth, Aerith really wanted to do it herself. But she couldn't carry out the task. That's why she entrusted Tifa with it. She entrusted Tifa with all the feelings she had for Cloud in her heart. She entrusted them to the one that was going to "live" together with Cloud...

"You did it, Tifa. Thank you... I'm a little jealous of you but, do take care of Cloud and the upper world.



He was never "considering becoming closer to Tifa romantically." He outright states he wants her by his side from now on. That's not a consideration that an outright commitment



"I'm going to live. I think that's the only way I can be forgiven.

Cloud had come to terms with Aeris's death after the game. Think about it. Why would he want forgivness two years later when he already thought he was forgiven? This strongly and logically suggests that he though his Geostigma was his karma for not protecting Aeris and possibly Zack. This also goes right in line with the fact that he keeps asking for her forgiveness through the whole movie. Oh and Tifa does heal Cloud's wounds, since it is her words that convince him to fight once more.



Although Cloud and Tifa have know each other since they were children, they were not always together and even though the game took about a year to complete, Cloud and Tifa didn't get a lot of time to truly now each other because they had other priorities, like saving the world and killing Sephiroth. In fact, only after the Life Stream event do they start to get romantically involved. So from the Life stream event on, they are just starting to truly know each other. Things like that take time, in fact it could take a life time even in marriage.



I have already proven this NOT true. I don't know how many times I have to say this before you get it. They live almost a whole year happily without Barret. Nothing fell apart for almost a year, until he got sick.



Perhaps if Cloud were a mature person he would have talked it over with Tifa, but as Nomura has told us in the Reunion Files, Cloud is a very childish character. In fact, a lot of married men do the exacted same thing with their wives everyday. Also I don't know how this seen really helps you with CxA. Cloud and Tifa aren't even fighting by this time.



What planet do you live on where feeling similar to a mother = a brother/sister relationship? So because Tifa has pried in Cloud similar to what a mother would feel, that suddenly means that she's not in love with him anymore? That's sounds stupid, since the entire game and beginning of the novel supports otherwise. And no mention of romantic feelings on either side? Have you been playing deaf this whole time or something? There are at least three or more times thought the entire game where she almost tells Cloud she loves him and Cloud specifically tells her that "he wants her by his side from now on." There is plenty of romance.

Oh and just so you know, we can play mother games all day with both Aeris and Tifa.



He wants forgiveness from Aeris so it would make sense to go to her church seeking forgiveness.



Yes Aeris is someone who was close to Cloud but that doesn’t diminish his love for Tifa.



Tifa has been being patient with Cloud, for about a month or more at this point, so of course she's going to lose it eventfully, and rightfully so. Cloud might think that he's doing the right by her, trying to hiding things and so on but he doesn’t realize that he's being immature and childish. Also at this point, Tifa has no idea why Cloud is feeling regret after almost two years of living happily. So yes, she is frustrated. Tifa is only human and if it were Aeris in Tifa's place she would most likely be just as frustrated at Cloud, or even more so seeing as she is more forward with her feelings.



Just because Aeris might be the first one that comes to mind doesn't make her Cloud's true love.



Or perhaps (and more logically) because their both boys they have more in common, like father and son, while Marleen would rather hang around with Tifa since their both girls.



Dubious
Meaning: Uncertain about an outcome or conclusion.

So in the context of this sentence, we can safely say that he was in all honesty surprised, that she had offered to come with him. If Cloud wanted to be "alone with his memories of Aerith" logically he would have been annoyed or emotionless rather then just dubious.



As I have already said before, it's the most logical to assume that Cloud is now feeling guilty again (after more then two years of living happily with Tifa) because he feels that his geostigma is his karma for not protecting Aeris and Zack. He feels that this is his sin; his cross to bare; not Tifa's. The fact that he doesn't tell her about it actually goes to show how much he truly lover her. He obviously doesn't want to see her suffering anymore then she already is with Denzel's geostigma. He also doesn't want to fight it because it's incurable and he feels that no mater what he does he will always fail. This isn't about Cloud realizing that "his true love was really Aeris and not Tifa." This is about Cloud feeling bad for his karma in his failures.



Oh, but he does decide to start fighting when Tifa finally confronts him about his childish behavior. When Cloud comes back to deal with Bahamit (Sin) he and Tifa make amends. He even says "I feel like I've lost weight, all that dilly dally shilly shally" Cloud had talked to Tifa, Aeris, and even Vincent but it wasn’t until he remembered Tifa’s words from earlier that he finally decided to fight on.



Again, it is Aeris he wants forgiveness from, so it is in Aeris's church he stays in, hopping to be forgiven. If Cloud was really just waiting to die with so he could be with her then why does he keep asking her to forgive him? What would he care about being forgiven if he's going to be with his "true love" anyway? It's obvious that he wants to be forgiven for his sins so that he can live on with his family.



Now here is what I mean by making things up or just ignoring what was written. They get plenty far before Cloud gets Geostigma and after AC when he finally moves on (For good this time). Just look at that picture at the end. Their a happy family again and in DC the both of them are geting along just fine, smiling and what not. Oh and you think Aeris understood Cloud better when she was alive? No.



Yeah right "wikipedia vandalism." If it's nothing but vandalism then why did a whole bunch of you Cleris get all pissy about it?



Oh, then who the hell else’s koibito/lover would she be? Maybe Red 13, or perhaps Berret? Please use you're brain. If SE says she's like a lover theirs no one else they would be talking about except for Cloud.



Yeah, you Claeris like to make a big deal about is and like but in reality the difference is very minute. "Like" is used all the time in common English to make direct comparisons. So we can conclude that in the said sentence, Tifa is at least referred to as a lover/girlfriend/sweetheart by SE, in which Aeris never was.



Because of people like you who will do, say, and ignore, anything so they can make Cleris seem cannon.



It's no more blown out of proportion the "I want to meet you" Or perhaps you think that way because it up a damper on your "Cleris being cannon" thing.



I'm not going to rune my book trying to scanning it just so you can see the quote. If you want to see it then look at a friends or buy you're own.



Wow, I'm so proud that you like what I say so much that you feel the need to copy my sentences.



Is this all you could come up with. It's really lame how you always argue the same crap even though it's been proven wrong over and over again. First, none of those are cannon to FF7. Second, I don't count two minuets of Cloud and Aeris walking together a side story. It's meant to be cute and that is all.



Again, making things up. NEVER at any time does he stop his bike to meet her. In fact he doesn't even turn his head to acknowledge she's there, instead he's calling Tifa and the children right when he's riding past the flower fields. Aeris and Cloud are NEVER SHOWNE meeting in the flower fields. End of story.



Oh yes it's soooooooo CxA. Thats why he's calling Tifa while Aeris is watching him go by. Oh and "CxA music video" were youre exacted words.



Hmm... A year of living happily together (without Berret ) vs five months or less of fighting and and living in Aeris's church. Not really a comparison especially since they make up with each other before the fight seen with Bahamit anyway.

You know you seem to see Cloud in a certain way, in which the creators have not created him to be. Cloud acts like a child (like a lot of men) and there for, makes immature and childish decisions. Does that mean that he's not in love with Tifa? No. It just means that he makes bad decisions, while thinking he’s making the right ones. Also you keep saying that Cloud and Tifa's relationship is dysfunctional, and that because of their dysfunction, that gives support to Cloud and Aeris. Every romantic relationship, no mater how in love they are, has their moments of dysfunction. Cloud and Tifa are going to have disagreements and arguments because they care and love each other. I give kudos to the creators for putting such realism into their characters. Not to mention that their arguments, even the ones in "The case of Tifa" aren’t even that bad considering all that’s happened. What doesn't make since to me that you keep using Cloud and Tifa's relationship problems as proof that Cloud and Aeris would make a better couple. First of all, I don't know how you have come to this assumption considering that you have nothing to compare it too, and second, that Cloud is how Cloud is no mater who it's with. The creators have made Cloud a very childish character, so it wouldn't mater if it were Aeris there instead of Tifa because he would have reacted and done the same things.

I don't think Cloud had any romantic interest in Yuffie whatsoever. As for Aeris and Tifa, it becomes difficult and I've thought about it many times. I'm sure he probably had feelings for both of them at one time or another. That's normal. However, I have to agree with others in saying that he never really got a chance to get to know Tifa or Aeris.