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 Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:30 am
perhaps you meant "quit", not "quite".
but are you out of arguments? it would appear to me that we have crushed every illogical half-point you have attempted to make.
simply put, it may not be a sin specifically, but that does not make it acceptable or right.
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:11 pm
divineseraph perhaps you meant "quit", not "quite". but are you out of arguments? it would appear to me that we have crushed every illogical half-point you have attempted to make. simply put, it may not be a sin specifically, but that does not make it acceptable or right. My statement is, "Abortion is not a sin." Pray tell how you have "crushed" anything when you seem to agree. What you decide is wrong or right has no bearing on me, unless it is supported by God. You have done nothing to show your position is supported by God and in fact have agreed it is not. As such, you are wrong. On a more personal note, i wonder what point of mine you have "crushed." Aside from showing one spelling mistake i made (a petty action considering you made several grammatical mistakes while doing so), i can see nothing you have won or corrected. In fact, you have clearly made a logical fallacy, as shown: divineseraph and by basic biological law, feti are human. they contain human DNA and human genes, they are human. the only thing missing is personhood, the same fleeting definition which justified slavery, the same thing which justified the holocaust. You clearly state feti are human because they contain human DNA. Next: divineseraph since when has a hair follicle grown up to be a composer or teacher or even gang member? you fail at even basic biology. cells that reproduce into complete humans are unlike any other cells in the human body simply for that reason. plus, hair cells are dead. You claim i am wrong and that i "fail at even basic biology" because "cells that reproduce into complete humans are unlike any other cells." I posted under your definition and showed your flaw; you immediately changed your definition and said i was wrong. Logical fallacy. An interesting note: divineseraph and when does this "personhood" exist? when you say so? jews weren't people. kill them, melt their fat into candles and soap. bllacks aren't people. enslave them. feti aren't people. kill them. unless you believe in the personhood fairy, a magical creature who sprinkles life-dust on babies once they pop out of the mother. because as we all know (minus yourself, now that i think about your lack of biological wisdom) growth does not occur is steps as we like to label it- firstly, changes are gradual, a gradient. secondly, all humans grow at different speeds. although they stick around 9 months, they can be born before or after by months. Resorting to the Holocaust and insults does not help your case. More importantly, the Jewish community believes personhood begins when a child draws its first breath, so... Too bad no fairies are involved, then you would really look silly.
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:32 pm
zz1000zz -Sunset Wahine- zz1000zz Now, onto the issue that disturbs me most. Christians are condemning people for actions which are not clearly condemned by god. That means people are proclaiming their own views as the views of god. By doing so, they are making their views more important than god, and thus are proclaiming themselves as superior to god. Perhaps god would despise abortions; however, he has not proclaimed that as a fact. If you say he has, you lie about god and are a heretic. As a true Christian we live in absolute obedience to God. We take what He says seriously and actually follow it. We don't just read something and excuse it as nothing because Jesus did not specifically state it. If a person truly wanted to walk with God, they'd take God's word seriously with fear and reverence for the Lord. There are also sins that fall under rebellion, which is abortion because it is not done out of LOVE. Uh-huh. You can decide for yourself if you want to believe something is a sin. I will not try to change your personal beliefs. What i will do is point out that you have no leg to stand on when you tell other people they are sinning if they have an abortion, or are gay. If you do tell them such, i will call you out as a heretic. Beyond that, i do not care. You can believe whatever you want, i have no desire to disillusion you. If you are a Christian, where you truly walk with Christ, He will show you what is a sin and what isn't. That happens because you have a RELATIONSHIP with Christ, which is what being a Christian is all about! It's easy for a sinner to see a decision as no sin.
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Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:08 am
-Sunset Wahine- zz1000zz -Sunset Wahine- zz1000zz Now, onto the issue that disturbs me most. Christians are condemning people for actions which are not clearly condemned by god. That means people are proclaiming their own views as the views of god. By doing so, they are making their views more important than god, and thus are proclaiming themselves as superior to god. Perhaps god would despise abortions; however, he has not proclaimed that as a fact. If you say he has, you lie about god and are a heretic. As a true Christian we live in absolute obedience to God. We take what He says seriously and actually follow it. We don't just read something and excuse it as nothing because Jesus did not specifically state it. If a person truly wanted to walk with God, they'd take God's word seriously with fear and reverence for the Lord. There are also sins that fall under rebellion, which is abortion because it is not done out of LOVE. Uh-huh. You can decide for yourself if you want to believe something is a sin. I will not try to change your personal beliefs. What i will do is point out that you have no leg to stand on when you tell other people they are sinning if they have an abortion, or are gay. If you do tell them such, i will call you out as a heretic. Beyond that, i do not care. You can believe whatever you want, i have no desire to disillusion you. If you are a Christian, where you truly walk with Christ, He will show you what is a sin and what isn't. That happens because you have a RELATIONSHIP with Christ, which is what being a Christian is all about! If you are a Christian, then Christ and God have told you what is a sin. They did that in the Bible. Anything beyond that is false and a heresy. And i know that is a sin. God does not tell you as an individual something is a sin, unless you are a prophet or such. Quote: It's easy for a sinner to see a decision as no sin. A Christian is a sin, so by the logic it is easy for a Christian to see a decision as no sin. Which seems to contradict what you just said...
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Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:28 pm
If you believe that abortion is okay then explain this.
1)Explain to me Jesus' words in Matthew 5:17-20. I suggest reading it. It says he came not to abolish the law but to fulfill the law.
2) Also explain Psalm 139:13, Jeremiah 1:5 Both exlaining God being in the womb putting together the baby in the womb. Abortion kills the work that God is actively involved in.
3) Explain the 10 Commandments especially Exodus 20:13 and Deuteronomy 5:7 about not "Murdering."
4) Also explain Exodus 21:22 where it explains a punishment for injury to an unborn child who is hurt or killed because of someone's actions.
Please read those. Read not just in an English version. read the OT in Hebrew and the NT in Greek. You will get a more acurate translation. Find an interlinear Bible that shows the Hebrew and the Greek and does a literal translation of these passages.
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Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:44 pm
zz1000zz -Sunset Wahine- zz1000zz -Sunset Wahine- zz1000zz Now, onto the issue that disturbs me most. Christians are condemning people for actions which are not clearly condemned by god. That means people are proclaiming their own views as the views of god. By doing so, they are making their views more important than god, and thus are proclaiming themselves as superior to god. Perhaps god would despise abortions; however, he has not proclaimed that as a fact. If you say he has, you lie about god and are a heretic. As a true Christian we live in absolute obedience to God. We take what He says seriously and actually follow it. We don't just read something and excuse it as nothing because Jesus did not specifically state it. If a person truly wanted to walk with God, they'd take God's word seriously with fear and reverence for the Lord. There are also sins that fall under rebellion, which is abortion because it is not done out of LOVE. Uh-huh. You can decide for yourself if you want to believe something is a sin. I will not try to change your personal beliefs. What i will do is point out that you have no leg to stand on when you tell other people they are sinning if they have an abortion, or are gay. If you do tell them such, i will call you out as a heretic. Beyond that, i do not care. You can believe whatever you want, i have no desire to disillusion you. If you are a Christian, where you truly walk with Christ, He will show you what is a sin and what isn't. That happens because you have a RELATIONSHIP with Christ, which is what being a Christian is all about! If you are a Christian, then Christ and God have told you what is a sin. They did that in the Bible. Anything beyond that is false and a heresy. And i know that is a sin. God does not tell you as an individual something is a sin, unless you are a prophet or such. Quote: It's easy for a sinner to see a decision as no sin. A Christian is a sin, so by the logic it is easy for a Christian to see a decision as no sin. Which seems to contradict what you just said... No. A Christian knows Christ. Do you know what it means to know a person? God does tell an individual Christian what is a sin, through conviction of the Holy Spirit.
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:03 am
zz1000zz divineseraph perhaps you meant "quit", not "quite". but are you out of arguments? it would appear to me that we have crushed every illogical half-point you have attempted to make. simply put, it may not be a sin specifically, but that does not make it acceptable or right. My statement is, "Abortion is not a sin." Pray tell how you have "crushed" anything when you seem to agree. What you decide is wrong or right has no bearing on me, unless it is supported by God. You have done nothing to show your position is supported by God and in fact have agreed it is not. As such, you are wrong. On a more personal note, i wonder what point of mine you have "crushed." Aside from showing one spelling mistake i made (a petty action considering you made several grammatical mistakes while doing so), i can see nothing you have won or corrected. In fact, you have clearly made a logical fallacy, as shown: divineseraph and by basic biological law, feti are human. they contain human DNA and human genes, they are human. the only thing missing is personhood, the same fleeting definition which justified slavery, the same thing which justified the holocaust. You clearly state feti are human because they contain human DNA. Next: divineseraph since when has a hair follicle grown up to be a composer or teacher or even gang member? you fail at even basic biology. cells that reproduce into complete humans are unlike any other cells in the human body simply for that reason. plus, hair cells are dead. You claim i am wrong and that i "fail at even basic biology" because "cells that reproduce into complete humans are unlike any other cells." I posted under your definition and showed your flaw; you immediately changed your definition and said i was wrong. Logical fallacy. An interesting note: divineseraph and when does this "personhood" exist? when you say so? jews weren't people. kill them, melt their fat into candles and soap. bllacks aren't people. enslave them. feti aren't people. kill them. unless you believe in the personhood fairy, a magical creature who sprinkles life-dust on babies once they pop out of the mother. because as we all know (minus yourself, now that i think about your lack of biological wisdom) growth does not occur is steps as we like to label it- firstly, changes are gradual, a gradient. secondly, all humans grow at different speeds. although they stick around 9 months, they can be born before or after by months. Resorting to the Holocaust and insults does not help your case. More importantly, the Jewish community believes personhood begins when a child draws its first breath, so... Too bad no fairies are involved, then you would really look silly. common sense dictates that a finger is different from an eye, a lung different from a kidney. human cells, yes, but they are not the same regardless. they are not interchangable either in purpose or definition despite their similar makeup. the same goes with feti and hair cells. biologically hair cells ARE human. but, they do not contain seperate DNA, they will not grow on their one, they are dead cells AND, most importantly, they will never become full grown humans. my point is not that abortion is a sin, because honestly i don't give a flying ******** about a system that would allow the killing of a child over swearing. my point is that abortion is not RIGHT by HUMAN standards, by tangible standards in the here and now.
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:02 am
divineseraph my point is not that abortion is a sin, because honestly i don't give a flying ******** about a system that would allow the killing of a child over swearing. my point is that abortion is not RIGHT by HUMAN standards, by tangible standards in the here and now. And thus the conversation ends, at least between the two of us. You admit abortion is not a sin, therefore there is no disagreement. Your "human standards" can be anything they want, i have no issue with them. I suppose it is good to have someone agree...
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:07 am
-Sunset Wahine- No. A Christian knows Christ. Do you know what it means to know a person? God does tell an individual Christian what is a sin, through conviction of the Holy Spirit. ... I would rather trust a holy document then the claims of a random person who rejects said holy document as the absolute truth. With the document anyone can see the truth, whereas, with your "relationship" we can only trust *your* word. It would seem our disagreement is this. I believe Christians should rely on the Bible for all decisions regarding sin, while you believe your private communications with God are more valid. I am not sure how you could defend such a belief.
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:23 am
It is rude to give references without quoting them, but we can ignore that for now. jamesthelittle If you believe that abortion is okay then explain this. 1)Explain to me Jesus' words in Matthew 5:17-20. I suggest reading it. It says he came not to abolish the law but to fulfill the law. I am not sure what disagreement this passage is supposed to bring up, but okay... Quote: 2) Also explain Psalm 139:13, Jeremiah 1:5 Both exlaining God being in the womb putting together the baby in the womb. Abortion kills the work that God is actively involved in. Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified [set apart] thee. God knew him before he formed him in the womb (i.e. before conception). Presumably, an omniscient God would know: when the conception would occur, that a miscarriage would not happen, the time when Jeremiah would be born, the name that the baby would be given, and the important role that Jeremiah would play as an adult. The passage does not appear to be related to the morality of abortion or whether a fetus is human person. Quote: 3) Explain the 10 Commandments especially Exodus 20:13 and Deuteronomy 5:7 about not "Murdering." As i mentioned in a previous post, Jewish tradition did not consider babies to be humans until they drew their first breath (or were halfway out of the birth canal if they came out backwards). Killing a fetus would have no bearing on this law. Quote: 4) Also explain Exodus 21:22 where it explains a punishment for injury to an unborn child who is hurt or killed because of someone's actions. Please read those. Read not just in an English version. read the OT in Hebrew and the NT in Greek. You will get a more acurate translation. Find an interlinear Bible that shows the Hebrew and the Greek and does a literal translation of these passages. Yeah, this passage actually damns you, not me. This verse describes a situation in which a man, who is fighting another man, accidentally hits a pregnant woman, and causes a termination of her pregnancy. The following verse, 23, explains that if the woman died, the guilty man would be executed by the state. The accidental killing of a woman under these circumstances was considered a capital offense, because she was a human person. However, if the women lives the man would only have to pay a fine. Thus we can see that if the baby is lost, it does not require a death sentence -- it is not considered murder. But if the woman is lost, it is considered murder and is punished by death. Game, set, match?
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Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:29 pm
no, i am not finished. i want you to think. i want you to use reason rather than a half-assed excuse based on the absense of a specific quote in the bible.
i want you to make your own thoughts and think for yourself. there is no way to prove or disprove this point by biblical standards, just as there is no way to prove the existene of God by scientific means.
one cannot make laws based on what is or is not in the bible, one cannot deprive or allow life based on what is or is not in the bible. be they jews, blacks, catholics, whites, protestants, feti, women, men.
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Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:34 pm
zz1000zz It is rude to give references without quoting them, but we can ignore that for now. jamesthelittle If you believe that abortion is okay then explain this. 1)Explain to me Jesus' words in Matthew 5:17-20. I suggest reading it. It says he came not to abolish the law but to fulfill the law. I am not sure what disagreement this passage is supposed to bring up, but okay... Quote: 2) Also explain Psalm 139:13, Jeremiah 1:5 Both exlaining God being in the womb putting together the baby in the womb. Abortion kills the work that God is actively involved in. Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified [set apart] thee. God knew him before he formed him in the womb (i.e. before conception). Presumably, an omniscient God would know: when the conception would occur, that a miscarriage would not happen, the time when Jeremiah would be born, the name that the baby would be given, and the important role that Jeremiah would play as an adult. The passage does not appear to be related to the morality of abortion or whether a fetus is human person. Quote: 3) Explain the 10 Commandments especially Exodus 20:13 and Deuteronomy 5:7 about not "Murdering." As i mentioned in a previous post, Jewish tradition did not consider babies to be humans until they drew their first breath (or were halfway out of the birth canal if they came out backwards). Killing a fetus would have no bearing on this law. Quote: 4) Also explain Exodus 21:22 where it explains a punishment for injury to an unborn child who is hurt or killed because of someone's actions. Please read those. Read not just in an English version. read the OT in Hebrew and the NT in Greek. You will get a more acurate translation. Find an interlinear Bible that shows the Hebrew and the Greek and does a literal translation of these passages. Yeah, this passage actually damns you, not me. This verse describes a situation in which a man, who is fighting another man, accidentally hits a pregnant woman, and causes a termination of her pregnancy. The following verse, 23, explains that if the woman died, the guilty man would be executed by the state. The accidental killing of a woman under these circumstances was considered a capital offense, because she was a human person. However, if the women lives the man would only have to pay a fine. Thus we can see that if the baby is lost, it does not require a death sentence -- it is not considered murder. But if the woman is lost, it is considered murder and is punished by death. Game, set, match? First it isn't rude to give a reference without qouting it. Especially since we are talking about a guild for Christians. Second before you start quoting Scriptures, it is important to not just use on version (ie. KJV, NIV, NAS...etc) One will get a purer translation by going back to the Hebrew, Aramaic, and the Greek. So your explanaiton for some of the Scriptures is off. Matthew 15:17-20 states that Jesus came to fulfill the law and that the OT is just as important as the NT. That is important because that means any OT text is valid and useful. It also menas there is punishment still for not following the OT as well as the NT. The Psalm 139:19 and the Jeremiah 1:5 are best translated as meaning God himself was and is inside the womb forming the baby. That means life starts with conception, because God is putting the baby together. Exodus 21:22 does support punishment for an "UN-BORN" Child. Which using the word child means "LIFE." You using the word child means you mean life. That means there is life before the "first breath." And just because the Jews first believed that life began at first breath doesn't mean they are right. The Jews also didn't believe in Jesus as the Messiah. They were wrong on that. Please tell me what translation or translations you use for Scripture? Thanks.
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Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:15 am
divineseraph no, i am not finished. i want you to think. i want you to use reason rather than a half-assed excuse based on the absense of a specific quote in the bible. i want you to make your own thoughts and think for yourself. there is no way to prove or disprove this point by biblical standards, just as there is no way to prove the existene of God by scientific means. one cannot make laws based on what is or is not in the bible, one cannot deprive or allow life based on what is or is not in the bible. be they jews, blacks, catholics, whites, protestants, feti, women, men. I made this topic with the sole purpose of showing certain things commonly viewed as sins are not sins. I have accomplished this, at least in regards to you. If you wish to discuss a tangent, please either create a new topic or do it through private messages.
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Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:31 am
Quote: Second before you start quoting Scriptures, it is important to not just use on version (ie. KJV, NIV, NAS...etc) One will get a purer translation by going back to the Hebrew, Aramaic, and the Greek. If you can find a source willing to disagree with any translations i have used, i will gladly review it. However, i based my response primarily off Religious Tolerance's article on this topic, and they do take that into account. The version i use generally is the KJV unless there is some reason to not, in which case i generally review several versions, possibly even the original Hebrew/Greek. Quote: So your explanaiton for some of the Scriptures is off. You make this claim without showing evidence. I will gladly correct any mistakes i may have made, but you have to show them to me first. Quote: Matthew 15:17-20 states that Jesus came to fulfill the law and that the OT is just as important as the NT. That is important because that means any OT text is valid and useful. It also menas there is punishment still for not following the OT as well as the NT. I know fully well what this passage states, and it has no bearing on the topic of abortion. Old Testament or New Testament, the Bible does not condemn abortion. Quote: The Psalm 139:19 and the Jeremiah 1:5 are best translated as meaning God himself was and is inside the womb forming the baby. That means life starts with conception, because God is putting the baby together. Best translated? I doubt that, but whatever. I quoted the KJV which disagrees, now you show me what source disagrees with me, and why it is better. Until you do so, it is impossible for me to respond as all you have offered is baseless claims. Exodus 21:22 does support punishment for an "UN-BORN" Child. Which using the word child means "LIFE." You using the word child means you mean life. That means there is life before the "first breath." Actually, the Jews did not have a word for fetus, so they were forced to use the same word for fetus and child. That in no way shows they viewed a fetus as a living being. More to the point, why did you not respond to my main point on this passage. Namely, if the mother dies it is a capital offense, while if the mother lives it requires only a fine? Clearly this passage does not view an "unborn child" as having the same value as a human being. Quote: Please tell me what translation or translations you use for Scripture? Thanks. Please tell me what translation(s) you used, and please quote them if they disagree with something i have said. I am getting extremely tired of people making baseless claims and not being able to defend them. You have done nothing to show abortion is a sin, and if you continue to do so i doubt i will respond. Please offer biblical passages that actually show killing a fetus goes against the will of God, or please do not post on this topic.
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Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:24 am
zz1000zz Please tell me what translation(s) you used, and please quote them if they disagree with something i have said. I am getting extremely tired of people making baseless claims and not being able to defend them. You have done nothing to show abortion is a sin, and if you continue to do so i doubt i will respond. Please offer biblical passages that actually show killing a fetus goes against the will of God, or please do not post on this topic. You say you are tired of people making baseless claims, yet you do the same without qoting some of your sources. You do it by admitting that you use "Religious Tolerance Articles." Is their information credible? Where does their infor come from? YOU do it as well, when you can't defend your claims with anything other than the KJV, which has been proven time and time again by many theologians as a flawed version, just like the NIV and the NAS. You have to go back to the original language (Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic) do a literal translation, and then base a translation for today off the context (history, audience,etc). Your claims about abortion not being in the Bible are you ignoring Biblical and apostolic principle. Are you going to tell me that drugs are okay and euthenasia is okay, and abuse of women is okay because it isn't talked about in the Bible?
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