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CH1YO

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:05 pm


brainnsoup
CH1YO
brainnsoup
CH1YO
Shadows-shine


Yes, maybe, but there is no way to prove who is 100% correct or not. Just like there is no way to prove that God exists or doesn't exist.


Thankfully that is not a very important endeavour.

Although it is perfectly simple to prove that GOD exists, one has simply to find Him.
Hehe, really?
Care to show your work?


Of course- it's the scientific way.

To know you've found something it must be identified, if you can identify GOD then He must exist.

I don't know how one might go about finding Him but it's simple enough to determine that that is how you prove He exists.
So you're saying that what we identify as God, even if we are mistaken (which some of us must be), exists to us?
And that God is real to us as we percieve Him(/Her/It/They)?
Not that there is objective proof of a higher power controlling everything?
I'm not completely sure if I understand.


Not at all- to prove GOD's existence we must simply locate and identify Him.

It may still be difficult to convince others but that is often the case with science and indeed should be so.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:56 pm


brainnsoup
xxEternallyBluexx
@Zslone: Sorry, I'm really trying not to. It's hard to post your (religious) opinion sometimes without sounding preachy. xp And, my point was if you can't prove He doesn't exist, it's a little illogical to assert that He doesn't. If you have an inner conviction (which comes with loving Him. How can you accept the denial of the existance of someone you love who means the world to you? Some do, but personally it'd tear me up inside not to at least assert He exists. Do athiests have that same emotional attachment to their disbelief? Would you die to deny Him or any other God?) that He does exist then it would be silly of you to deny it.

@dio: I'm trying to come from a place where thing make sense, not where my opinion means more then yours. What makes sense to me is that in Christianity there's a powerful evil being who can cause lies to take people away from the truth. If you come from a place that makes more sense then that, please share it, and I'll think about to see if it makes any more sense, okay?

@Raven: Thanks, and I see what you mean. Just wondering (I'm trying not to offend anyone, but I really do wonder), do you have a jealous god who wants to be loved and loves people or a villian who would cause false miracles to lead people away from that god?

@brainn: That's what Christians assert, that ours is the only true religion. That makes sense to me in that, if the supernatural is real, then there's rules governing it, so only one religion dealing withe supernatural could be correct.

There's miracles, like my mom and the bee (anyone want me to go over the story again?) and the woman who couldn't walk, and a visiting pastor who didn't know her says run bacuse of the Holy Ghost, and she RUNS. Those things still happen. But inner conviction is all some people need too. It does depend.

Not always, and everything requires a reason. If the miracle is based around faith (as with my mom and the bee), if prayer is involved, if you feel the Holy Ghost, all the above the reasons are good reasons to think it might be the Lord. And honestly, how many other religions have Satans, or jealous gods who truly care for people. As much as the Greek gods interest me, they're too human to be gods. My God is the model we were shaped after, but He's GOD, and He CARES. If you can name god like that, I'll look into it, okay?


But why do you care if you believe He doesn't? I'm emotionally invested, you aren't (are you?). To me, should the athiest be right, and thiests really are delusional, well it's a bit like telling a kid there's no Santa Claus, except that all a kid has invested in Santa Claus is presents and a holiday. My life is invested in my religion. Do you see?

Besides that, all it takes for there to be be a god is for one of the many, many people who experienced any greater power to be right. All it takes for it to be the Christian God, is any one of the millions who have experienced the Holy Ghost to be right.

And I apologize if I was preachy sweatdrop . I'll try and keep that to a minimum if I can help it.
But yours is not the only religion that explains what is unexplained.
That's what religion does. It explains what we can't yet.
And if you wish to believe that the reason for something is God's will, then that's fine and I will respect that, but there really isn't any evidence unless you believe in God, and even then you can't say for sure, so you really can't expect us to believe that those are miracles of God.
Or even for people who believe in God but aren't Christian, it could be any God.
And I know that both of those stories have some link to Christ, but hey, maybe God has a sense of humor.
My point is, you're free to believe whatever you wish but you have to see things from a neutral perspective if you want to make sense to those of us who aren't Christian.

And to say that your religion is correct because your religion says its correct is circular logic and doesn't really prove anything unless you first decide that Christianity is correct, which is often what we're debating.

And yes, everything requires a reason.
But why automatically assume that it's God?

And you're biased as to how God should be, because that's the perception that you were raised with.
As someone who wasn't really taught too much about the details of Christianity until later in life, the fact that He had no problem with killing off his creations when he didn't like how they turned out, kicking us out of Eden into a world of suffering, damning us to hell for not worshiping him concerns me.
A lot of religions don't even have a hell.
In fact, the worst hell I think I've ever heard of is the one depicted in the bible.

Why do I care? Well first of all, knowing the consequences, I'd better be pretty sure that I'm right. So I think about this stuff a lot.
But also I love learning about different religions and trying to understand people's faith.
It offers an amazing window into what drives other people.
For example, it's pretty clear that we don't agree on religion very much, right?
But I can always follow your logic and understand how you see the world and why, even if I don't agree with it.
And I understand that you are devoted to your religion. And I'm not trying to change that.

I want to be very clear here.
I'm not intentionally trying to tear down people's beliefs or spread atheism.
In fact, in real life when people ask me why I'm an atheist, I usually don't tell them because it's probably contrary to what they believe and I don't want to offend them.
The only reason I do so here is because this is a debate guild and I assume that people who approach me with questions can handle having them answered, even if it's contrary to everything they believe.
I try not to be condescending or insulting.
And I'm not trying to get you to turn your back on your religion either.
I'm just giving my point of view.

And just because millions of people believe something doesn't make it right.

True, religion does explain the unexplainable, and that is one facet of Christianity. Christianity's main purpose is to give Man a way back to God.
There's God's promises in the Bible, and what is seen and felt. It's kinda how you tell a kid to put a plate of shallow water to demonstrate evaporation. You go by faith, and you always get an answer. Sure there are prayers where He doesn't us give what we want, but that just means the answer is no, or it's not the right time.
That's making God human. I think He has a sense of humor (He made the platypus, didn't He? There's a lot of animals with strange features, that must have seen pretty hilarious in the making) but I doubt He plays with people.
And I would go from a neutral perspective if I could (I actually want to), but I can't. I'm too used to seeing things through the Christian POV. Sorry. sweatdrop

I wasn't trying to debate a point with that statement, just state that Christianity does say that there isn't another true religion. It's more like stating a fact about the religion then making a point.

Why assume it's not when no other reason presents itself? You could wonder about it, but when the evidence points one way, and that's then shouldn't you assume it's that unless or until another option presents itself? You refer to the child who survived the accident. There's a lot of miracles that don't make sense that way, like a person has a brain tumor, it's confirmed more then once, and that person goes to the church and gets prayer. Should said tumor be found to be gone, then it makes sense that it'd be God, because science doesn't work that way, but God does.

I am biased, I freely admit that. It's one of the results of being raised Christian. But most people have biased opinions. We absorb them from our society and our home, and they follow us no matter what we do. Besides that, as long as I'm not biased to think Christians are better then non-Christians (and I'm not) then who better to discuss from a Christian perspective then a biased Christian?
If He's the Creator, He can do whatever He likes. An artist can destroy his paintings, and a musician can burn his music. As it is, He hasn't gone that far, and He's actually been rather good to us. He gave us a planet (which we gave to Satan) and He made us like Him. And then when we walked away from Him by eating the fruit, He sent His Son to die for us. Yes, He's killed people, but who could judge man but man's Creator? He kicked us out so we wouldn't live forever in a fallen state, and because by eating that fruit we chose to leave His Presence. We still had the entire planet! It's not like He doomed us to Mars or the moon or even Hell. And as for Hell: Good comes from God. Evil is what results from leaving Him. God can use evil for good (that's probrably why bad things happen to good people) but in the end good and evil must be seperated. Jesus had to die so the price could be paid, and sin nature could be washed away from those who wanted it. Then those people could go on to Heaven after death because they aren't evil anymore; they can be in His Presence. He wants us back and He's made it simple, all we have to do is choose Him.

That's really cool. I mean, there's a lot of people who don't even think about this stuff, so the fact you do is admirable. And as for making sure you're right, that's great too. If you want any help with that, you might read CS Lewis's Mere Christianity. He's great with the logic of Christianity, and He explains things far better then I'm able to.
It does. I have Asperger's Syndrome, so I read a lot to understand people, because I don't have the natural understanding most do. It's also why I sometimes have a hard time going from another perspective.

I really respect that. If I didn't come from a place that said people need Jesus, that's exactly where I'd want to come from, and you aren't condescending or insulting in the least. You're actually are really good at presenting your view without being offensive.

No, it doesn't, but if millions feel, see and/or experience something that seems to point at something, then wouldn't that make it at least a possibility?

xxEverBluexx

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brainnsoup
Crew

Dapper Shapeshifter

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:58 pm


CH1YO
brainnsoup
CH1YO
brainnsoup
CH1YO
Shadows-shine


Yes, maybe, but there is no way to prove who is 100% correct or not. Just like there is no way to prove that God exists or doesn't exist.


Thankfully that is not a very important endeavour.

Although it is perfectly simple to prove that GOD exists, one has simply to find Him.
Hehe, really?
Care to show your work?


Of course- it's the scientific way.

To know you've found something it must be identified, if you can identify GOD then He must exist.

I don't know how one might go about finding Him but it's simple enough to determine that that is how you prove He exists.
So you're saying that what we identify as God, even if we are mistaken (which some of us must be), exists to us?
And that God is real to us as we percieve Him(/Her/It/They)?
Not that there is objective proof of a higher power controlling everything?
I'm not completely sure if I understand.


Not at all- to prove GOD's existence we must simply locate and identify Him.

It may still be difficult to convince others but that is often the case with science and indeed should be so.
How is that possible?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:17 pm


xxEternallyBluexx
brainnsoup
xxEternallyBluexx
@Zslone: Sorry, I'm really trying not to. It's hard to post your (religious) opinion sometimes without sounding preachy. xp And, my point was if you can't prove He doesn't exist, it's a little illogical to assert that He doesn't. If you have an inner conviction (which comes with loving Him. How can you accept the denial of the existance of someone you love who means the world to you? Some do, but personally it'd tear me up inside not to at least assert He exists. Do athiests have that same emotional attachment to their disbelief? Would you die to deny Him or any other God?) that He does exist then it would be silly of you to deny it.

@dio: I'm trying to come from a place where thing make sense, not where my opinion means more then yours. What makes sense to me is that in Christianity there's a powerful evil being who can cause lies to take people away from the truth. If you come from a place that makes more sense then that, please share it, and I'll think about to see if it makes any more sense, okay?

@Raven: Thanks, and I see what you mean. Just wondering (I'm trying not to offend anyone, but I really do wonder), do you have a jealous god who wants to be loved and loves people or a villian who would cause false miracles to lead people away from that god?

@brainn: That's what Christians assert, that ours is the only true religion. That makes sense to me in that, if the supernatural is real, then there's rules governing it, so only one religion dealing withe supernatural could be correct.

There's miracles, like my mom and the bee (anyone want me to go over the story again?) and the woman who couldn't walk, and a visiting pastor who didn't know her says run bacuse of the Holy Ghost, and she RUNS. Those things still happen. But inner conviction is all some people need too. It does depend.

Not always, and everything requires a reason. If the miracle is based around faith (as with my mom and the bee), if prayer is involved, if you feel the Holy Ghost, all the above the reasons are good reasons to think it might be the Lord. And honestly, how many other religions have Satans, or jealous gods who truly care for people. As much as the Greek gods interest me, they're too human to be gods. My God is the model we were shaped after, but He's GOD, and He CARES. If you can name god like that, I'll look into it, okay?


But why do you care if you believe He doesn't? I'm emotionally invested, you aren't (are you?). To me, should the athiest be right, and thiests really are delusional, well it's a bit like telling a kid there's no Santa Claus, except that all a kid has invested in Santa Claus is presents and a holiday. My life is invested in my religion. Do you see?

Besides that, all it takes for there to be be a god is for one of the many, many people who experienced any greater power to be right. All it takes for it to be the Christian God, is any one of the millions who have experienced the Holy Ghost to be right.

And I apologize if I was preachy sweatdrop . I'll try and keep that to a minimum if I can help it.
But yours is not the only religion that explains what is unexplained.
That's what religion does. It explains what we can't yet.
And if you wish to believe that the reason for something is God's will, then that's fine and I will respect that, but there really isn't any evidence unless you believe in God, and even then you can't say for sure, so you really can't expect us to believe that those are miracles of God.
Or even for people who believe in God but aren't Christian, it could be any God.
And I know that both of those stories have some link to Christ, but hey, maybe God has a sense of humor.
My point is, you're free to believe whatever you wish but you have to see things from a neutral perspective if you want to make sense to those of us who aren't Christian.

And to say that your religion is correct because your religion says its correct is circular logic and doesn't really prove anything unless you first decide that Christianity is correct, which is often what we're debating.

And yes, everything requires a reason.
But why automatically assume that it's God?

And you're biased as to how God should be, because that's the perception that you were raised with.
As someone who wasn't really taught too much about the details of Christianity until later in life, the fact that He had no problem with killing off his creations when he didn't like how they turned out, kicking us out of Eden into a world of suffering, damning us to hell for not worshiping him concerns me.
A lot of religions don't even have a hell.
In fact, the worst hell I think I've ever heard of is the one depicted in the bible.

Why do I care? Well first of all, knowing the consequences, I'd better be pretty sure that I'm right. So I think about this stuff a lot.
But also I love learning about different religions and trying to understand people's faith.
It offers an amazing window into what drives other people.
For example, it's pretty clear that we don't agree on religion very much, right?
But I can always follow your logic and understand how you see the world and why, even if I don't agree with it.
And I understand that you are devoted to your religion. And I'm not trying to change that.

I want to be very clear here.
I'm not intentionally trying to tear down people's beliefs or spread atheism.
In fact, in real life when people ask me why I'm an atheist, I usually don't tell them because it's probably contrary to what they believe and I don't want to offend them.
The only reason I do so here is because this is a debate guild and I assume that people who approach me with questions can handle having them answered, even if it's contrary to everything they believe.
I try not to be condescending or insulting.
And I'm not trying to get you to turn your back on your religion either.
I'm just giving my point of view.

And just because millions of people believe something doesn't make it right.

True, religion does explain the unexplainable, and that is one facet of Christianity. Christianity's main purpose is to give Man a way back to God.
There's God's promises in the Bible, and what is seen and felt. It's kinda how you tell a kid to put a plate of shallow water to demonstrate evaporation. You go by faith, and you always get an answer. Sure there are prayers where He doesn't us give what we want, but that just means the answer is no, or it's not the right time.
That's making God human. I think He has a sense of humor (He made the platypus, didn't He? There's a lot of animals with strange features, that must have seen pretty hilarious in the making) but I doubt He plays with people.
And I would go from a neutral perspective if I could (I actually want to), but I can't. I'm too used to seeing things through the Christian POV. Sorry. sweatdrop

I wasn't trying to debate a point with that statement, just state that Christianity does say that there isn't another true religion. It's more like stating a fact about the religion then making a point.

Why assume it's not when no other reason presents itself? You could wonder about it, but when the evidence points one way, and that's then shouldn't you assume it's that unless or until another option presents itself? You refer to the child who survived the accident. There's a lot of miracles that don't make sense that way, like a person has a brain tumor, it's confirmed more then once, and that person goes to the church and gets prayer. Should said tumor be found to be gone, then it makes sense that it'd be God, because science doesn't work that way, but God does.

I am biased, I freely admit that. It's one of the results of being raised Christian. But most people have biased opinions. We absorb them from our society and our home, and they follow us no matter what we do. Besides that, as long as I'm not biased to think Christians are better then non-Christians (and I'm not) then who better to discuss from a Christian perspective then a biased Christian?
If He's the Creator, He can do whatever He likes. An artist can destroy his paintings, and a musician can burn his music. As it is, He hasn't gone that far, and He's actually been rather good to us. He gave us a planet (which we gave to Satan) and He made us like Him. And then when we walked away from Him by eating the fruit, He sent His Son to die for us. Yes, He's killed people, but who could judge man but man's Creator? He kicked us out so we wouldn't live forever in a fallen state, and because by eating that fruit we chose to leave His Presence. We still had the entire planet! It's not like He doomed us to Mars or the moon or even Hell. And as for Hell: Good comes from God. Evil is what results from leaving Him. God can use evil for good (that's probrably why bad things happen to good people) but in the end good and evil must be seperated. Jesus had to die so the price could be paid, and sin nature could be washed away from those who wanted it. Then those people could go on to Heaven after death because they aren't evil anymore; they can be in His Presence. He wants us back and He's made it simple, all we have to do is choose Him.

That's really cool. I mean, there's a lot of people who don't even think about this stuff, so the fact you do is admirable. And as for making sure you're right, that's great too. If you want any help with that, you might read CS Lewis's Mere Christianity. He's great with the logic of Christianity, and He explains things far better then I'm able to.
It does. I have Asperger's Syndrome, so I read a lot to understand people, because I don't have the natural understanding most do. It's also why I sometimes have a hard time going from another perspective.

I really respect that. If I didn't come from a place that said people need Jesus, that's exactly where I'd want to come from, and you aren't condescending or insulting in the least. You're actually are really good at presenting your view without being offensive.

No, it doesn't, but if millions feel, see and/or experience something that seems to point at something, then wouldn't that make it at least a possibility?
You always get an answer, whether or not it's correct.
I'd rather have no answers than to have to blindly believe something.
You should try questioning things some of the time or trying to see the world through a not-necessarily-Christian perspective once in a while. You don't have to believe those thoughts, but it's a lot of fun and it lets you see the world through someone else's eyes.
Maybe I'm playing the part of the serpent in Eden, and maybe you're not comfortable with it.
But when I was agnostic, before I ruled out Christianity in my mind, I believed that even if Christianity was the one true religion, then that would mean that we were given free will and this amazing ability to use logic and reason and to question by God. Why would He punish me for using it?
If you really truly believe that Christianity is the one way to heaven than you'll keep returning to that.
At least that's my opinion.

And other religions do present themselves. You just refuse to see them. How else can you explain other people being just as sure of their religion as yours?
Christianity doesn't even present itsself at all in a lot of parts of the world until people come marching in with bibles.

And do you remember the thread made in the Islamic subforum in this guild a while back? I use this as an example because, whether you acknowledge it or not, you both make very similar points, just for different religions.

And for the man with the brain tumor, it doesn't make sense to assume that he was saved through prayer. Like I said before, statistically things like this are bound to happen every once in a while.
But to say that he had a tumor, went to church, and was better and therefore was saved by prayer, by that logic anything that happened in between his sick test and his cured test could have fixed him.
Like, if he ate a salad for lunch, he must have been cured by ranch dressing.
Even if it is a possibility, there's much too many possibilities.
Or what is the same man had prayed with his family, but they weren't Christian, and weren't even praying to your god?
Is it logical to assume that that God/s saved him?
And again, what of the millions of people who pray and don't get better?
How do they not outweigh the one person who got better?

Is it alright for a mother to kill her child when she tires of it?
According to Christianity, He had no problem killing everyone (well, almost everyone) in a flood.
I wouldn't be too cool with it if someone wanted to drown me in a flood...
How can God say that human life is important when he's killed more than any one person ever could?
And then claim that those were the actions of a loving god?

And I don't think I could ever agree that Hell, or at least Christian Hell, is justifyable.
If someone goes out and murders five people, but then says he is truly sorry and prays before he dies, he goes to Heaven.
But one of his victims happened to be Jewish and did not believe in Jesus, he doesn't get in, and gets to spend eternity, eternity in Hell?
I'm not sure if you believe that people who don't accept Jesus go to Hell, but that idea is so messed up to me.
Most of the nicest, most selfless people I know are not Christian.
I would not want to be part of heaven if they were not welcome.

And thank you! (: I really love studying people and the way they think. We're pretty fascinating creatures. XD
Actually I only got really interested in religion since becoming stronger in my atheism, I think because it allows me to look into religions without feeling like I'm doing something wrong. XD
And I might look into that book too. I love having my own perception of the world shaken.

And I don't know too much about Asperger's, but I do know what's it's like to not know how to act the way people expect you to, so I know how frustrating that can be sometimes.
I got better by watching my peers and how they interacted with eachother and building from that.
That probably doesn't help much though. :/ Sorry.

And thanks! That means a lot.
I try really hard to find a ballance between being respectful of religion without tiptoeing around it.

And it's possible.
But it's just as possible for the people of countless other religions all feeling the same thing to be correct too. (:

brainnsoup
Crew

Dapper Shapeshifter


CH1YO

PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:31 am


brainnsoup
CH1YO
brainnsoup
CH1YO
brainnsoup
Hehe, really?
Care to show your work?


Of course- it's the scientific way.

To know you've found something it must be identified, if you can identify GOD then He must exist.

I don't know how one might go about finding Him but it's simple enough to determine that that is how you prove He exists.
So you're saying that what we identify as God, even if we are mistaken (which some of us must be), exists to us?
And that God is real to us as we percieve Him(/Her/It/They)?
Not that there is objective proof of a higher power controlling everything?
I'm not completely sure if I understand.


Not at all- to prove GOD's existence we must simply locate and identify Him.

It may still be difficult to convince others but that is often the case with science and indeed should be so.
How is that possible?


If it were so simply that I would know for sure then surely much difficulty in life would be averted but I would suppose something along these lines would suffice: visit whatever location He is made manifest, allow the effect of the God-head to identify Him, jobs a good 'un.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:19 am


CH1YO
brainnsoup
CH1YO
brainnsoup
CH1YO
brainnsoup
Hehe, really?
Care to show your work?


Of course- it's the scientific way.

To know you've found something it must be identified, if you can identify GOD then He must exist.

I don't know how one might go about finding Him but it's simple enough to determine that that is how you prove He exists.
So you're saying that what we identify as God, even if we are mistaken (which some of us must be), exists to us?
And that God is real to us as we percieve Him(/Her/It/They)?
Not that there is objective proof of a higher power controlling everything?
I'm not completely sure if I understand.


Not at all- to prove GOD's existence we must simply locate and identify Him.

It may still be difficult to convince others but that is often the case with science and indeed should be so.
How is that possible?


If it were so simply that I would know for sure then surely much difficulty in life would be averted but I would suppose something along these lines would suffice: visit whatever location He is made manifest, allow the effect of the God-head to identify Him, jobs a good 'un.
Again, I'm not sure if I understand.
But there's no way you would get objective proof.
In such places only believers will tell you that it's the work of God.
Unless you want to be more specific.
Because any places/things I've heard of that are tied to God require quite a bit of blind faith and assumptions.

No, I think if God does exist then He/She/It/They does not want to be identified.
He's certainly made it difficult enough.

brainnsoup
Crew

Dapper Shapeshifter


Zslone2

PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:03 pm


xxEternallyBluexx
@Zslone: Sorry, I'm really trying not to. It's hard to post your (religious) opinion sometimes without sounding preachy. xp And, my point was if you can't prove He doesn't exist, it's a little illogical to assert that He doesn't. If you have an inner conviction (which comes with loving Him. How can you accept the denial of the existance of someone you love, someone who means the world to you? Some do, but personally it'd tear me up inside not to at least assert He exists. Do athiests have that same emotional attachment to their disbelief? Would you die to deny Him or any other god?) that He does exist then it would be silly of you to deny it.

@dio: I'm trying to come from a place where thing make sense, not where my opinion means more then yours. What makes sense to me is that in Christianity there's a powerful evil being who can cause lies to take people away from the more powerful being who not only created them, but loves them. If you come from a place that makes more sense to you then that, then please share it, and I'll think about it, okay?

@Raven: Thanks, and I see what you mean. Just wondering (I'm trying not to offend anyone, but I really do wonder), do you have a jealous god who wants to be loved and loves people or a villian who would cause false miracles to lead people away from that god?

@brainn: That's what Christians assert, that ours is the only true religion. That makes sense to me in that, because if the supernatural is real, then there's rules governing it, so only one religion dealing with supernatural could be correct.

There's miracles, like my mom and the bee (anyone want me to go over the story again?) and the woman who couldn't walk, and a visiting pastor who didn't know her says run because of the Holy Ghost, and she RUNS. Those things still happen. But inner conviction is all some people need too. It depends on the person.

Not always, and everything requires a reason. If the miracle is based around faith (as with my mom and the bee), if prayer is involved, if you feel the Holy Ghost, all the above the reasons are good reasons to think it might be the Lord. And honestly, how many other religions have Satans, or jealous gods who truly care for people. As much as the Greek gods interest me, they're too human to really be gods (if they were, our universe would be so much more chaotic). My God is the model we were shaped after, but He's GOD, and He CARES. If you can name god like that, tell me please.


But why do you care if you believe He doesn't? I'm emotionally invested, you aren't (are you?). To me, should the athiest be right, and thiests really are delusional, well it's a bit like telling a kid there's no Santa Claus, except that all a kid has invested in Santa Claus is presents and a holiday. My life is invested in my religion. Do you see?

Besides that, all it takes for there to be be a god is for one of the many, many people who experienced any greater power to be right. All it takes for it to be the Christian God, is any one of the millions who have experienced the Holy Ghost to be right.

And I apologize if I was preachy sweatdrop . I'll try and keep that to a minimum if I can help it.

It's all good Blue I know your not trying to sound preachy your just telling me your views. Lol don't worry I aint made just it's something I had to point out. I understand what your saying though but you have to realize I don't know much about other religions aside from my own and some things about Christianity that other people seem not to know. It's kinda funny but sad when I correct someone who is christian and I get a good laugh outta that. But to the main point What you call the "Holy Ghost" I could call Amon-Re or Poseidon or any number of the gods I believe in.
@ CH1YO like wtf are you trying to say cause I dont get any idea wtf your attempting to say. Like if I can't prove "God" exists can you prove that my gods don't exist? Plus Figuring out if "God" exists doesn't mean locating him it's determining if He/She/They are even remotely real and not fictional.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:27 pm


brainnsoup
CH1YO
brainnsoup
CH1YO
brainnsoup
So you're saying that what we identify as God, even if we are mistaken (which some of us must be), exists to us?
And that God is real to us as we percieve Him(/Her/It/They)?
Not that there is objective proof of a higher power controlling everything?
I'm not completely sure if I understand.


Not at all- to prove GOD's existence we must simply locate and identify Him.

It may still be difficult to convince others but that is often the case with science and indeed should be so.
How is that possible?


If it were so simply that I would know for sure then surely much difficulty in life would be averted but I would suppose something along these lines would suffice: visit whatever location He is made manifest, allow the effect of the God-head to identify Him, jobs a good 'un.
Again, I'm not sure if I understand.
But there's no way you would get objective proof.
In such places only believers will tell you that it's the work of God.
Unless you want to be more specific.
Because any places/things I've heard of that are tied to God require quite a bit of blind faith and assumptions.

No, I think if God does exist then He/She/It/They does not want to be identified.
He's certainly made it difficult enough.


I apologise.
As objective as proof of any phenomenon can be.
What speak you of work- I speak of the Lord made manifest.
Indeed.
To see Heaven surely is to believe.

That would, appear at least, to be tantamount to the problem.
It may well be that He only wills to be known to those as will to know Him, never to measure the immeasurable.

CH1YO


CH1YO

PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:31 pm


Zslone2
@ CH1YO like wtf are you trying to say cause I dont get any idea wtf your attempting to say. Like if I can't prove "God" exists can you prove that my gods don't exist? Plus Figuring out if "God" exists doesn't mean locating him it's determining if He/She/They are even remotely real and not fictional.


I assert that to prove the existence of GOD one must simply visit wherever He happens to be sat and to allow observation to suffice for the rest.
No one can ever, under any real circumstance, prove a negative.
Proof is far removed from merely figuring out. To locate Him is to prove Him, that- at present- He is a particularly real fiction does not at all factor into our affairs.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:33 pm


Still unclear and Please speak in Normal English I can't tell if ur using olden English or modern so In Laymen terms explain to me wtf your attempting to say. I got that to prove gods exists is to find him and since we don't know if we can find him he must exist which makes no sense by the way. But from what I got your saying because we cant prove if he does or doesn't exist u say he exists so My gods exist as well as yours going by your logic correct?

Zslone2


brainnsoup
Crew

Dapper Shapeshifter

PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:25 pm


CH1YO
brainnsoup
CH1YO
brainnsoup
CH1YO
brainnsoup
So you're saying that what we identify as God, even if we are mistaken (which some of us must be), exists to us?
And that God is real to us as we percieve Him(/Her/It/They)?
Not that there is objective proof of a higher power controlling everything?
I'm not completely sure if I understand.


Not at all- to prove GOD's existence we must simply locate and identify Him.

It may still be difficult to convince others but that is often the case with science and indeed should be so.
How is that possible?


If it were so simply that I would know for sure then surely much difficulty in life would be averted but I would suppose something along these lines would suffice: visit whatever location He is made manifest, allow the effect of the God-head to identify Him, jobs a good 'un.
Again, I'm not sure if I understand.
But there's no way you would get objective proof.
In such places only believers will tell you that it's the work of God.
Unless you want to be more specific.
Because any places/things I've heard of that are tied to God require quite a bit of blind faith and assumptions.

No, I think if God does exist then He/She/It/They does not want to be identified.
He's certainly made it difficult enough.


I apologise.
As objective as proof of any phenomenon can be.
What speak you of work- I speak of the Lord made manifest.
Indeed.
To see Heaven surely is to believe.

That would, appear at least, to be tantamount to the problem.
It may well be that He only wills to be known to those as will to know Him, never to measure the immeasurable.
Can you use specifics?
I'm not sure what you mean by "whatever location He is made manifest".
And are you speaking of Jesus? Because I'm assuming you're speaking of a God who walked the Earth.
And even if we went to those places, how do you propose we prove that he was there?
:/ I'm sorry, I really don't follow your logic. I'm more lost now than I was when you first explained it.

This is a possible way to provide objective, tangible proof of the existence of God?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:28 pm


Yes, it is true that you cannot objectively prove or disprove the existence of any god.

However, if we want to examine the truth that is in religions, we might want to look at religions in a way which doesn't talk exclusively about their beliefs. Emile Durkheim, one of the earliest sociologists and anthropologists discusses the social phenomenon of religion in a society. While I won't go as far as my professor in interpreting Durkeim as calling religion "a society's symbolic worship of itself", I will mention that his definition of religion involved a group of people who followed it, and a set of applicable Symbols (including deities) which frame much of the context for people's experiences.

Why call them "symbols"? These stories, myths, gods, and other characters hold a lot of meaning in them. Since we can't talk about literal truth, we can talk about their effect on the society.

PrometheanSet


brainnsoup
Crew

Dapper Shapeshifter

PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:39 pm


CH1YO
Zslone2
@ CH1YO like wtf are you trying to say cause I dont get any idea wtf your attempting to say. Like if I can't prove "God" exists can you prove that my gods don't exist? Plus Figuring out if "God" exists doesn't mean locating him it's determining if He/She/They are even remotely real and not fictional.


I assert that to prove the existence of GOD one must simply visit wherever He happens to be sat and to allow observation to suffice for the rest.
No one can ever, under any real circumstance, prove a negative.
Proof is far removed from merely figuring out. To locate Him is to prove Him, that- at present- He is a particularly real fiction does not at all factor into our affairs.
I think I understand now.
But I do think what you're saying is impossible, even if I believed that there was a God.
Even from a religious POV, most popular religions don't place God on earth.
I mean, if I saw God standing in line at Starbucks or reading the paper at a bus stop, going about daily life like the rest of us, you wouldn't need to prove His existence, there would be no question.
But he is intangible, an idea, and even if He does exits, he does not mingle with us on earth.
So to say that we just have to find God and we'll have our answer is like saying we should simply walk up to Him and ask Him ourselves if He existed, no?

And even if you did find Him, and not in the way that inmates on death row find Him, how would you prove that He was God?
It's not like we have a machine to measure holiness.
No, I think the way to prove that He exists is through blind faith.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:14 am


Zslone2
Still unclear and Please speak in Normal English I can't tell if ur using olden English or modern so In Laymen terms explain to me wtf your attempting to say. I got that to prove gods exists is to find him and since we don't know if we can find him he must exist which makes no sense by the way. But from what I got your saying because we cant prove if he does or doesn't exist u say he exists so My gods exist as well as yours going by your logic correct?


If you know what old English sounded like then I am sure you are using a gross exaggeration, if not then I shall correct you- I am most certainly and clearly communicating in modern English.

You're very close and yet so far. It is indeed my argument that to prove the existence of GOD we must simply locate Him and proof will be forthcoming. Whilst this is admittedly hard to impossible according to various unknown factors it is all we can do but to bicker.
Also it is true that a negative cannot be proven so we lack an exit from that route.
I do not argue that GOD or indeed any God should exist or not but rather we be pragmatic in the use of the tools we have- both that we respect the reality and value of fictions and that we conduct ourselves properly as though there was a GOD even if the contrary seems more likely.

CH1YO


CH1YO

PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:23 am


brainnsoup
CH1YO
Zslone2
@ CH1YO like wtf are you trying to say cause I dont get any idea wtf your attempting to say. Like if I can't prove "God" exists can you prove that my gods don't exist? Plus Figuring out if "God" exists doesn't mean locating him it's determining if He/She/They are even remotely real and not fictional.


I assert that to prove the existence of GOD one must simply visit wherever He happens to be sat and to allow observation to suffice for the rest.
No one can ever, under any real circumstance, prove a negative.
Proof is far removed from merely figuring out. To locate Him is to prove Him, that- at present- He is a particularly real fiction does not at all factor into our affairs.
I think I understand now.
But I do think what you're saying is impossible, even if I believed that there was a God.
Even from a religious POV, most popular religions don't place God on earth.
I mean, if I saw God standing in line at Starbucks or reading the paper at a bus stop, going about daily life like the rest of us, you wouldn't need to prove His existence, there would be no question.
But he is intangible, an idea, and even if He does exits, he does not mingle with us on earth.
So to say that we just have to find God and we'll have our answer is like saying we should simply walk up to Him and ask Him ourselves if He existed, no?

And even if you did find Him, and not in the way that inmates on death row find Him, how would you prove that He was God?
It's not like we have a machine to measure holiness.
No, I think the way to prove that He exists is through blind faith.


*I'm not ignoring your previous post but much of it's content is of course shared or answered by this one- sorry if I missed anything*

Surely though if you believed in GOD you would happily accept that should He want to be so known He could and thus would?
Then we must look elsewhere.
Indeed so and most religious indeed do not belabour such searches, content as they are in their proof.
A large number of Christians and the movie Dogma would disagree with that claim.
In essence, yes- although here is a more pragmatic answer.

Surely if He is found He wishes to be known, if He is known then it is proved- what authority is higher than divine mandate?
Certainly not an external device, granted.
Blind faith refuses any proof- the mechanism is by open eyed faith.
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