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Jarlaxle Baenre

PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:39 am


Nope, Wild Mages still beat Bards.

Imprisonment at level one. Fun fun.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:08 pm


Ahah, so I convinced my DM to let my ranger buy some 'mithril arrows' which would be 2d6+5. Then, I got to level 6 and got manyshot and two attacks.

All of that equalled:

Me rolling 8 d6's and adding 20.

I think I made, like, 40- something damage xD I rolled, like, 3 6's. xD That was fun. Too bad my DM wouldn't let me buy mithril arrows anymore >.>

Yo_Landa
Vice Captain


Jarlaxle Baenre

PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:23 pm


My DM let me be an artificer and gave me 100 gold with which I bribed people and used my business skills to raise some more money and rent a lab... which began my Warforged army of DOOOOOOM!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:58 pm


Jarlaxle Baenre
Nope, Wild Mages still beat Bards.

Imprisonment at level one. Fun fun.


An eleventh level bard can't despite their best efforts, lose a fight. Ever. Against any numbers, any monster, anywhere. He just says "HEY! WHAT YOU'RE DOING THERE! THAT'S NOT NICE!" and he's so good at it, everyone just agrees with him. At 15th level, the entire world becomes the Bard's puppet. He wants money from a total stranger? He doesn't even have to roll, he just has to ask. He wants the evil overlord he's been fighting to just join his party? Yep, that's fine too! He's not even epic leveled yet and he can already exert the power of gods.

Excuse me if that seems slightly more powerful than a single spell.

Soloist


Jarlaxle Baenre

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:48 pm


But of course a player can kill him. Mindless creatures as well. Not to mention traps and so forth.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:06 pm


Heh...in my last campaign, my DM sorta decided that we all had to die. Soo...I ended up basically wasting my last level up before the campaign ended...

In about 20 minutes, I had amassed a +45 modifier to "Perform: Strip". I created a feat (+10, I think) used all my skill points and all my money to buy a n****e piercing of +10 strip and a crown of +5 strip. Also, there was an intelligent item that I couldn't take off (ended up being a horcrux for the lich we were fighting) which sang lewd songs and added +5 to my strip.

As well, I used a wish and got Bangles of +10 strip.

Heh.

Ironically, I was the only one who died in that campaign. My friends used dimension door >>

It ended with me having a strip off with a dinosaur in which I had to roll a natural 20 to avoid being eaten and escape. Didn't happen xD

Yo_Landa
Vice Captain


RogueKazimeras
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:31 pm


Jarlaxle Baenre
But of course a player can kill him. Mindless creatures as well. Not to mention traps and so forth.


Then note the flaws of your own 'godly Wild Mage.' Hey, wow, great, on the off-chance that your little wild magic effect grants an imprisonment, that's once out of, oh, say, how many players that can just walk up and own you with a couple of hits? That's because, well, mages of any sort really aren't known for their hit points. Traps could also wipe the floor with your Wild Mage, and he'd probably fall sooner than that high-diplomacy bard Soloist spoke of.

And besides, players would sooner attack a Wild Mage than they'd attack a bard. Bards are far more entertaining.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:37 pm


In 2E the level one Friends spell stacks, letting the player have insane ammounts of charisma. Also, the attacker would be dead by the time he'd be a foot from the Wild Mage. No casting delay for their special spell. Imprisonment is not one of the possible wild surge effects. The 2E Wild Mage could be more powerful than a bard physically through spells, even in hitpoints as the level six Tenser's Transformation doubles them.

Jarlaxle Baenre


Soloist

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:49 am


I think you are understimating the fact that the bard's godlike abilities dont spawn from any of his spells, weapons, armor, feats, instruments, or items.

He just talks. This vastly overwhelming ability to dominate 95% of encounters in D&D both hostile and otherwise is overpowered enough, but that's when the bard invests a completely normal amount of points in Charisma and Perform(It requires a base charisma of 16, and at least 3 ranks in perform or diplomacy per level in 3E or 3.5E, average for a bard at best). He still has a wide array of ridiculously powerful spells and songs at his command, in case, gods forbid, he has to fight.

I understand that my entire point rests on a flaw in the prewritten mechanics of the D&D ruleset (Static DCs = lose), but exploited properly there is literally nothing in the universe an epic leveled bard can't do.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:13 pm


Jarlaxle Baenre
In 2E the level one Friends spell stacks, letting the player have insane ammounts of charisma. Also, the attacker would be dead by the time he'd be a foot from the Wild Mage. No casting delay for their special spell. Imprisonment is not one of the possible wild surge effects. The 2E Wild Mage could be more powerful than a bard physically through spells, even in hitpoints as the level six Tenser's Transformation doubles them.


I was a bigger fan of the first Baldur's Gate anyway. More direction to it...

RogueKazimeras
Vice Captain


Lykus

PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:06 pm


Soloist
there is literally nothing in the universe an epic leveled bard can't do.

Can he teach a golden robot about H-E-A-R-T and the power of love?

Cannot compute data: "Haveadrink"

Wild mages are more powerful by themselves. Bards are more powerful because they are never by themselves. I figure that you can get the RP aspect in there too if you're not so focused on how quickly you can destroy a thing that you forget you're making a character, not a catapult. Of course, the overpoweredness of the classes is based almost entirely on laughably enormous oversights in the game system that any reasonable DM would patch up with simple judgement. No, you cannot convince the level 25 evil king of half the world to be your level 17 bard's cohort because he managed to roll a 27 diplomacy. No, you cannot do that stuff with a wild mage because, frankly, the class is as ill-conceived as exotic weapon master. Besides, it's based upon the allowance for a physical nature of magic that is not always present in every campaign setting. I would, for example, have a hard time letting someone be a wild mage in a low-magic setting. Many high-magic settings also would be not conducive to wild magic because the magic system and/or nature of magic in that world is described in excess detail.

If I were a DM and a player made a bard only because he expected to be able to diplomacy anyone anywhere, no matter what, I'd laugh in his face as his character went through gross disfigurements lowering his charisma to levels at which it is impossible to even cast his spells (not that those are the real draw of the bard anyway). If I were a DM and a player wanted to roll a wild mage solely to exploit the ridiculous oversights in the class design, I'd simply point out that the campaign setting I'm in does not have the kind of physical condition under which wild magic can be manipulated, let alone exist. Or I'd let him redesign the class to cover up what flaws there are while retaining whatever legitimate things about the class he liked. I'm a nice guy.

But yeah, for bards, if you follow the ridiculous static DC, you don't take points in any skill except diplomacy. You just spent points on languages.

As fantastic as Battlestar Galatica is and has remained, come on guys. I predicted three out of five of the "ZOMGTWISTS" that happened on the season finale.

Also: The, say, three RPs that I was brewing didn't pan. They were too geared toward having a main character, and that's not good for RPs

What is up?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:21 am


Well again, I was considering only the core rule structure, because it is impossible to predict the discrepancies in DM stylings.

Our diplomacy system for example, encourages roleplaying (with modifiers running as high as +5 for persuasive verbal arguments), but has a very structured rule set in place wherein you have to consider how beneficial the request being made to the listener is, their ability to divulge the intended motive of the speaker, the relationship between speaker and listener, the persuasion of a large group versus a single person, and of course, how hard the listener is to convince (I.e. A character with high wisdom is harder to sway from his beliefs)

I know that no realistic DM lets a bard play god, but it's still funny to see such a gross oversight in one of the core classes.

Edit: And oh yeah, I totally called Starbuck getting to live because she has boobs. Too much fanboy anger over her essploding.

Further predictions for the series: Hot Dog will survive the entirety of the series because the actor that plays him is Edward James Olmos' youngest son. And you do not ******** with Edward James is Olmos. His face is an orange peel and he isn't dead, this is clear evidence that he is not to be trifled with.

Soloist


Lykus

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:32 pm


Soloist
Edit: And oh yeah, I totally called Starbuck getting to live because she has boobs. Too much fanboy anger over her essploding.

Plus, she's STARBUCK. Killing her would be like remaking the original Star Wars trilogy, except with Han Solo dying in the first ten minutes.

I called Tigh and Tyrol too. Anders and the president's aide chick I didn't catch because they haven't been really important characters at all until now.

Everyone was seriously like "ADAMA IS A CYLON IOLOOLOLOL" But gimme a break dudes. Cylons aren't replacements of people who exist and they're planning a prequel series about the Adama family. Unless they're planning to trash all that, neither of the Adamas are cylons.

And no way in hell is Baltar a Cylon. Starbuck? Probably.

LOL SPOILERS
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:00 pm


I don't watch Dustbuster Galactica...

I don't play bard often mainly because I find it difficult to start with one if you're playing one of the games (specifically Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights, until you get to the exploitation, yay!). I mean, you can't benefit from your bard song unless you're not doing anything else, and the spells they get in either of those games are not nearly as potent as any pure caster.

That and their hit points suck, stats are too hard to balance, and therefore they generally end up sucking hardcore in most any use. So I don't use them.

Now, the Baldur's Gate II Bard subclasses were okay (though the only real useful one was Blade, because that was combat-based), and I liked most of the Baldur's Gate II subclasses (The Paladin ones, Kensai, the thief ones, and sometimes even Wild Mage, though those ended up screwing me over in some big battles). I was just kinda sad they got rid of those...

RogueKazimeras
Vice Captain


Jarlaxle Baenre

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:53 pm


Within BGII the Wild Mage was the most powerful class in the game, hands down. There was a nifty bug to go along with it. As for Bards, a Blade could easily demolish a single class fighter, no problem there. I'd sacrifice some of my hitpoints, weapon proficiency as well as the use of some items at the beginning of the game. Blades beat fighters in almost every single way possible. Thieves were overpowered. There were bugs and cheeses with many of the caster classes, including the bard and excluding the priests (although an Assassin/Cleric kicked the most a** for backstabing) and yeah, I never got into paladins. They don't feel right. NWN... one level of Shadowdancer with a rogue character and you're all set for the rest of the game. Backstab then hide right in front of their face. Fun fun.
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