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I completely believe that.

I have read through the entire Bible, including the passages in which God specifically says the old rules written about in Leviticus don't need to be followed. I will agree that I follow the new testament more than the old testament because it is the new "testament" or new covanent God created with man. You think you have had some bad experiences with the church. Believe me I have had a really, really bad experience with a church institution that took me years to recover from. That is why I know better than to follow any church institution.


I know, I just said "Fine, I suppose I got lazy and didn't quote everything for you." I suppose I alluded to the evidence instead of actually giving the evidence. Truthfully, do you want me to go look up the prophecies?


sweatdrop That is the same as asking me why I believe in God. I believe wholly in God, so I believe the Bible.


eek eek eek When in the world did I ever say anything even remotely like that?


I said the class was studying some world religions. The class only covered Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, and "Christianity" in general, but this led me to want to study other religions.


Like I said, I don't really follow my church as much as I follow what is in the Bible. The church I do attend is a church that also believes that: Calvary Chapel. The church teaches through the Bible chapter by chapter, meaning one sunday they do, say, Matthew 8 then the next sunday they do Matthew 9 then Matthew 10, etc. That way, the pastor only teaches specifically what the Bible teaches, instead of the pastor choosing a topic and finding a bunch of verses to support his topic. My pastor only explains what is already in the text, like the meaning of words in the original Greek and the traditions behind the parables and allusions Jesus uses, and, on the rare occasion that he does give his own opinion, he always specifically says that it is only his opinion. My church is more for the people who want to really deeply study the Bible. For example, my aunt really doesn't like our church because it's not all touchy feely, preachy, and gospel like. It's not that we don't praise the Lord and sing songs and stuff. It's just more like a college class or something. *shrug* It's not for everybody.


Because God gave him power, which he abused. I don't think it should matter what Hell is like if you know how not to go there and that you will go there if you do certain things. Why do some people go to jail for ... oh, blowing up a mailbox (or some other simple crime that didn't technically hurt any noticible person) the same as people go to jail for asault?

Very clever use of verses out of context. You've had practice. Believe me, I have faced plenty of people who try and prove a point by quoting a specific verse in the bible.








You seem to be a very devote Christian, Lethkar.

Do you get my point?

Luke 18 talks about one very specific man asking Jesus what he alone had to do to get into heaven. This man was described as a very rich man, and Jesus obviously saw that he put his wealth above God. Jesus says "There is still one thing left for *you:"
*He was talking to that man.
I agree that if you come to a point where your possessions are more important than God, you should sell them. If God specifically tells you that is your sin, I agree you should do that; however, Jesus did not teach this lesson to a crowd of people, only to one man.

Luke 14 does talk about hating your family, but there are numerous other verses that talk about loving your family and everyone else. I believe (now this is only my interpretation) that Jesus was speaking about the fact that you can not serve two masters. I know that sounds weird, so just let me explain.

*Note*As always, feel free to read the verses surrounding my quotes to ensure the passage was interpretid correctly. Any verse I use, I would actually feel better if you went to check it out in context for yourself, so we don't misunderstand each other.

I believe that Jesus was saying in Luke 14 that you cannot place anyone, even your most beloved family members above God. If there comes a time when I have to choose between my family and God, I will follow the words of Luke 14 and choose God.

At the same time Jesus was saying the words in John 6, He was passing out bread and wine, clearly showing that it was a metaphor, otherwise He would have peeled some of his flesh off and poured some of His blood into cups to give to the disciples. Like I said, I don't believe there aren't metaphors in the Bible, just that there are clear ways to know when a metaphor is being used. Believing the lesson behind a metaphor is still believing in the words of the metaphor.


Yes, those are my words, taken out of context. I think I already pointed out that you can get someone to say anything they want out of context. We were talking about the physical fitness and overall strength of a species in that thread. Physically, humans are stronger in groups. True, humans can create good mental ideas when together. And, yes, spiritually, there can be wisdom gained from groups. But, ultimately I believe the true strength of a person comes from what they decide as individuals. That is why I don't believe I should try to "convert" you to Christianity. I can only offer some wisdom I believe in, but the choice is ultimately yours alone.


sweatdrop I think I already said which ones.



But, they both go to jail. Jails are essentially the same thing, confinement with less than ideal living conditions.


Why does it matter what Hell is like? God made the choice to design Hell as He saw fit. Honestly, no one really knows what Hell is going to be like other than really bad. I believe God created Hell to have conditions that fit the crime of the men there.


I agree that prisons should be safe and humane because jails are run by humans who are imperfect beings. God says in the Bible that men should not judge other men because men are quite capable of making mistakes. That is not to say I don't believe people should go to jail. I believe it is within man's responsibilities to protect others from criminals, but I don't believe that man has the right to decide ultimately and eternally what will happen to these people. And, Jesus calls us to love our enemies, so we should treat prisoners with respect.

I am sure you could explain your quotes and why you used them and what you meant by them, that's not my point. On their own, out of context, they sure make you sound like you are a Christian.


You really think it is unfair to base what each person should do on what that individual person is like? God knows what sins are hardest for a particular person to overcome, and tries to help them accordingly. This man's greatest sin was putting wealth above God, and in the end, he choose not to give up his wealth for God. There are some very rich people in the Bible who God blesses. It isn't so much about the wealth, but the mind of the individual.


To truly argue this point, I would have to know what the word "hate" is in the original greek. I will look it up. If it really means hate as we see it in English, I'll read it in context. If it means something a little different, I'll show you what I found. I know for a fact there are like three different words for three different kinds of love in Greek. I really don't think it would be fair for me to argue this verse any further until I know specifically what God meant. Please don't think I am trying to avoid the subject, I will gladly argue it, but I want to know what it means first.


What indications do you have that imply a metaphor in Revelations? John very clearly says this is what he saw in his dream. A revelation means "something revealed or disclosed, esp. a striking disclosure, as of something not before realized" (dictionary.com). The very definition of the word John uses says it is not a metaphor, but something discovered. The passage in John was clearly a metaphor because Jesus showed it as such with the use of the bread and the wine.


I didn't change my mind. Biologically, which is the context we were using when I said this, the human species is strong as a group. And, yes, an individual can have physical strength. Strength of the mind and spirit relies on the individual that is all I am saying. Though I do acknowledge that an individual can gain strength from a group, it is still the individual who grows stronger.

Baha'i? I'll check it out.


Instead of trying to figure out how horrible their lives are going to be in hell, why not try to help them to heaven? I believe a lot of people don't want hell to exist because they don't want to have the burden of trying to minister their loved ones. Again, don't be so quick to jump down my throat for calling you a bad person. I don't think this is you. I personally think you are still trying to figure out what you believe, and the Bible says you should figure out your own spirituality before trying to help others with their spirituality.


Everything. I don't get everything either. That has been point through this entire argument: that we can not completely understand Hell because we don't know everything that happens. God is omnipotent, so He understands all the sins a person has committed and all the stuff that happened because of those sins. There is no one who has never sinned, and, in fact, I don't believe there is anyone who has only sinned once. A person who has blown up one mailbox may not go to the same prison as a murderer, but a person who has blown up lots of mailboxes and injured some people in the process might.

Christians believe they are sinners, Jesus is the Messiah, and God is in control. Do you doubt that if someone was shown those quotes without knowing you that they would probably believe you were a Christian?


There are very obvious rules that you must follow, and then there are areas where God will speak to you specifically. In this case, the issue is whether or not you have to sell all your possessions to become a christian. The Bible says that you should have nothing above the Lord, so if you, as an individual, place possessions above God, you should take away those possesions because they disobey the rule about not having anything above God. The Bible has guidlines for the individual, you just have to figure out for yourself what the Bible says to your personality, which is why I believe you have to read through the whole Bible not just bits and pieces.


Agreed. But, there is no indication that it is a metaphor, so I guess in the end of the world we are going to see some pretty amazing creatures. 4laugh


Are you intent on making me a hypocrit or do you just like to have the last word? I believe my last quote was pretty specific.


I don't like to give up on people, but I don't doubt that there are people who will not believe no matter what you say. These people then commit the sin of pride.


Yeah, probably both. I wonder if you can be one and not the other?


How do you know, for either of these situations? A person who blew up a mailbox may have the same evil mind, but the serial killer just had a situation in which to escalate.


That is kind of my point. You really don't know if your sin has harmed anyone. God knows that sins will harm others, so He specifically tells us what things are sins. I believe He is warning us that our little sins have big consequences, which are the topics of several Bible stories and parables of Jesus.

And, were these same people the ones who weren't able to convince you to believe in Christianity? I find people who believe that often have a very warped idea of what it means to be a christian because they pick and choose the verses that let them live the "christian" life they want to live. That is why there are so many sects of christianity.



I believe that humans are biologically more fit for their environment in a group, but their mental and spiritual strength comes from the individual.


Even Christians are called, by God, to question their religion, so they do not fall into the sin of blind obedience.


3nodding That's an interesting idea ...


I think what I said for the first part applies to the second part. Even if you don't know that a simple sin would harm someone, God does, and warns you not to do the little sins because he knows that.