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High-functioning Businesswoman
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 Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:35 pm
Lethkhar That depends; Are you an objectivist? You don't think killing is moral, so it's beside the point. Lethkhar I know you're not. That's my point. Talking to you about religion is like talking to a brainwashed zombie, which is basically what I'm doing. Lethkhar No. Your beliefs (currently) are based on a single book. They are not your own beliefs. Even you think your own beliefs are immoral. You should leave it. And trust me, atheism feels at least ten times better.
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Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:27 pm
Fushigi na Butterfly Lethkhar That depends; Are you an objectivist? You don't think killing is moral, so it's beside the point. Exactly. But your morals are determined by the society you grow up in. The society you grew up in did not advocate murder, so murder would not be moral in your case. Quote: Lethkhar I know you're not. That's my point. Talking to you about religion is like talking to a brainwashed zombie, which is basically what I'm doing. Do you go to Church? Quote: Lethkhar No. Your beliefs (currently) are based on a single book. They are not your own beliefs. Even you think your own beliefs are immoral. You should leave it. And trust me, atheism feels at least ten times better. So you disagree with the standard morals set up by the beliefs system you yourself have chosen as moral? eek That's...Strange...You're sure you chose this religion for yourself?
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:24 pm
this is one of the most idiotic accusations I have seen in a very long time. Being exposed to something in no way brain-washes you into believing it.
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:03 pm
Fushigi na Butterfly So we finally started discussing the Fall of man and the creation stories in Genesis in my religion class, and my professor pointed out that if everything God created was good, how could man choose to sin? If there was no sin in the world yet, how could man choose to disobey God? Yes, there was free will, but there would have to be something inherently sinful or bad about man and nature that would cause man to choose anything but God when given the opportunity. So ... does that mean everything God created was not good, or were we set up? One thing I would like to point out is that there was sin LONG before Adam and Eve, in the form of Satan. Now, I can't remember where the Scripture is located, but I do know that it was stated that Satan(a.k.a Lucifer) was originally one of God's elite angels. But Satan thought that he was more powerful or greater than God, which was stupid. God cast Satan out of Heaven and onto earth. Or hell, depending on how you want to look at it. What I find interesting, is that He pretty much gave the same treatment to Satan as He did to us. I'll try to find that Scripture for you, and see if I'm mistaken on any of this. *some time later* I FOUND IT!!! It's in Isaiah chapter 14 and they talk about it till verse 23, and then it talks about a prophecy against Assyria. In my Bible, they have these little fact bubble things, and they talk about whatever may be confusing or whatever. For this chapter, they talk about the meaning of Satan's first name(Lucifer) which is "morning star" or actually refers to Venus as the brightest object in the night sky-aside from the moon and sun, of course. But in context, Isaiah was originally refering to the Babylonian king of that time and his cruelty, and also how he would be brought down. Although, you can tell that he's strongly hinting at Satan's past and definite future. Honestly, how can this not be God-breathed? How could Isaiah know this without God's help? Seems pretty dang clear to me.
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:59 pm
Cometh The Inquisitor this is one of the most idiotic accusations I have seen in a very long time. Being exposed to something in no way brain-washes you into believing it. How on earth would you brainwash someone into believing something without exposing them to it?
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:02 pm
kisa-chan9 Fushigi na Butterfly So we finally started discussing the Fall of man and the creation stories in Genesis in my religion class, and my professor pointed out that if everything God created was good, how could man choose to sin? If there was no sin in the world yet, how could man choose to disobey God? Yes, there was free will, but there would have to be something inherently sinful or bad about man and nature that would cause man to choose anything but God when given the opportunity. So ... does that mean everything God created was not good, or were we set up? One thing I would like to point out is that there was sin LONG before Adam and Eve, in the form of Satan. Now, I can't remember where the Scripture is located, but I do know that it was stated that Satan(a.k.a Lucifer) was originally one of God's elite angels. But Satan thought that he was more powerful or greater than God, which was stupid. God cast Satan out of Heaven and onto earth. Or hell, depending on how you want to look at it. What I find interesting, is that He pretty much gave the same treatment to Satan as He did to us. I'll try to find that Scripture for you, and see if I'm mistaken on any of this. *some time later* I FOUND IT!!! It's in Isaiah chapter 14 and they talk about it till verse 23, and then it talks about a prophecy against Assyria. In my Bible, they have these little fact bubble things, and they talk about whatever may be confusing or whatever. For this chapter, they talk about the meaning of Satan's first name(Lucifer) which is "morning star" or actually refers to Venus as the brightest object in the night sky-aside from the moon and sun, of course. But in context, Isaiah was originally refering to the Babylonian king of that time and his cruelty, and also how he would be brought down. Although, you can tell that he's strongly hinting at Satan's past and definite future. Honestly, how can this not be God-breathed? How could Isaiah know this without God's help? Seems pretty dang clear to me. How could Isaiah know what? confused He could've easily made up the story about Satan. So why do we call it Original Sin? And the point still stands, doesn't it? God created a world already with sin in Satan.
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:22 pm
yeah, just as easily as create a story about you or anyone else and actually be right. stare As to why we call it the original sin, it was the first sin made by man and /or woman. And I may have said it wrong in the first post, but God had thrown Satan out before He made the world. There couldn't have been sin in the world if it wasn't even there yet! The world is the realm of Satan, and Satan is the father of all sin. It all comes back to him. Satan had the choice in the beginning to follow God or be cast out and eventually defeated, and he chose to be cast out. It was his choice the entire time.
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:55 pm
kisa-chan9 yeah, just as easily as create a story about you or anyone else and actually be right. stare What the Hell are you talking about? Isaiah was probably completely high when he made that story up. He didn't have to be "right". It's a myth. Just like I can make a myth about a purple flying walrus. It doesn't have to be "right" because the purple flying walrus doesn't exist.
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:11 pm
Lethkhar kisa-chan9 yeah, just as easily as create a story about you or anyone else and actually be right. stare What the Hell are you talking about? Isaiah was probably completely high when he made that story up. He didn't have to be "right". It's a myth. Just like I can make a myth about a purple flying walrus. It doesn't have to be "right" because the purple flying walrus doesn't exist. Now what on earth are you talking about??? He was writing this in the middle of a civil war between Israel and Judah. I don't even know if they had drugs to get high off of in that time! I know they could get drunk, but I highly doubt that he could get seriously drunk then write a big ole book depicting the end of it all. Different subject: When you say that we are brainwashed into this, what do you mean by that? People can be brainwashed by toture, or solitary confinement, or any other method. Is that what you think happened to us? I'm just trying to undertand where you're coming from is all.
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:49 pm
Language. Lethkhar rofl How on earth would you brainwash someone into believing something without exposing them to it? just the same, exposure does not equate brain washing, for the same reason that commercials don't force us to buy their products and Hillary Clinton is an idiot. Note: Yes, it's wikipedia. It's to prove a point succinctly.
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Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:33 pm
kisa-chan9 Lethkhar kisa-chan9 yeah, just as easily as create a story about you or anyone else and actually be right. stare What the Hell are you talking about? Isaiah was probably completely high when he made that story up. He didn't have to be "right". It's a myth. Just like I can make a myth about a purple flying walrus. It doesn't have to be "right" because the purple flying walrus doesn't exist. Now what on earth are you talking about??? He was writing this in the middle of a civil war between Israel and Judah. I don't even know if they had drugs to get high off of in that time! I know they could get drunk, but I highly doubt that he could get seriously drunk then write a big ole book depicting the end of it all. Now you're telling me that Isaiah was actually there when Satan tried to overthrow God? lol So much for Adam and Eve being the first humans... Quote: Different subject: When you say that we are brainwashed into this, what do you mean by that? People can be brainwashed by toture, or solitary confinement, or any other method. Is that what you think happened to us? I'm just trying to undertand where you're coming from is all. Children that are told that your religion is the only right one from an early age are usually quite susceptible. Also, people who are unusually gullible, weak-minded, or simply have a genetic susceptibility to believing in God are easily tricked and eventually brainwashed by having the existance of God repeatedly told to them with little to no outside beliefs disrupting their "education".
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Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:35 pm
Note: I'm very Sorry Lethkhar. I mean to click 'quote' and I seem to have accidentally clicked 'edit'. It was a mistake that I will try not to make again.
~CtI
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Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:21 pm
Lethkhar kisa-chan9 Lethkhar kisa-chan9 yeah, just as easily as create a story about you or anyone else and actually be right. stare What the Hell are you talking about? Isaiah was probably completely high when he made that story up. He didn't have to be "right". It's a myth. Just like I can make a myth about a purple flying walrus. It doesn't have to be "right" because the purple flying walrus doesn't exist. Now what on earth are you talking about??? He was writing this in the middle of a civil war between Israel and Judah. I don't even know if they had drugs to get high off of in that time! I know they could get drunk, but I highly doubt that he could get seriously drunk then write a big ole book depicting the end of it all. Now you're telling me that Isaiah was actually there when Satan tried to overthrow God? lol So much for Adam and Eve being the first humans... Quote: Different subject: When you say that we are brainwashed into this, what do you mean by that? People can be brainwashed by toture, or solitary confinement, or any other method. Is that what you think happened to us? I'm just trying to undertand where you're coming from is all. Children that are told that your religion is the only right one from an early age are usually quite susceptible. Also, people who are unusually gullible, weak-minded, or simply have a genetic susceptibility to believing in God are easily tricked and eventually brainwashed by having the existance of God repeatedly told to them with little to no outside beliefs disrupting their "education". I never said that Isaiah was there when it happened! He wrote his book in the 8th century B.C., about the time when Homer was writting The Illiad and The Odyssey. I apologize for not clearing that. *To the second* To children being exposed at a early age, I understand and agree with you that they are susceptible. But to the rest, are you just saying that we're idiots? I'm sorry, but your last statement sounded an aweful lot like a personal insult. There are many of us who've explored other possibilities in religion(or lack there of), and have found that the Christian God to be the best logical answer. My youth pastor is a great example! All through his youth, up till his late teens, he'd been exposed to atheism, buddhism(sp?), hinduism, catholics, protestants, and a lot other stuff that I can't really remember. Though both his parents were practicing Christians, he wasn't so sure about it. He wanted to browse around. In the end, after looking at all of the evidence, he decided that the Christian God is real and the only way to go. Now, he's my mentor on this very subject as well as others. But it wouldn't be saying much unless you actually met the guy. He is a good, stong-minded man; I can say at least that much.
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Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:05 pm
kisa-chan9 Lethkhar kisa-chan9 Lethkhar kisa-chan9 yeah, just as easily as create a story about you or anyone else and actually be right. stare What the Hell are you talking about? Isaiah was probably completely high when he made that story up. He didn't have to be "right". It's a myth. Just like I can make a myth about a purple flying walrus. It doesn't have to be "right" because the purple flying walrus doesn't exist. Now what on earth are you talking about??? He was writing this in the middle of a civil war between Israel and Judah. I don't even know if they had drugs to get high off of in that time! I know they could get drunk, but I highly doubt that he could get seriously drunk then write a big ole book depicting the end of it all. Now you're telling me that Isaiah was actually there when Satan tried to overthrow God? lol So much for Adam and Eve being the first humans... Quote: Different subject: When you say that we are brainwashed into this, what do you mean by that? People can be brainwashed by toture, or solitary confinement, or any other method. Is that what you think happened to us? I'm just trying to undertand where you're coming from is all. Children that are told that your religion is the only right one from an early age are usually quite susceptible. Also, people who are unusually gullible, weak-minded, or simply have a genetic susceptibility to believing in God are easily tricked and eventually brainwashed by having the existance of God repeatedly told to them with little to no outside beliefs disrupting their "education". I never said that Isaiah was there when it happened! He wrote his book in the 8th century B.C., about the time when Homer was writting The Illiad and The Odyssey. I apologize for not clearing that. So how the Hell was he there when it was happening?!? How was he an eyewitness? You're not making any sense. Quote: *To the second* To children being exposed at a early age, I understand and agree with you that they are susceptible. But to the rest, are you just saying that we're idiots? I'm sorry, but your last statement sounded an aweful lot like a personal insult. There are many of us who've explored other possibilities in religion(or lack there of), and have found that the Christian God to be the best logical answer. *Snort* Quote: My youth pastor is a great example! All through his youth, up till his late teens, he'd been exposed to atheism, buddhism(sp?), Buddhism is a form of atheism, but go on... Quote: hinduism, catholics, protestants, and a lot other stuff that I can't really remember. Though both his parents were practicing Christians, he wasn't so sure about it. He wanted to browse around. In the end, after looking at all of the evidence, he decided that the Christian God is real and the only way to go. Now, he's my mentor on this very subject as well as others. But it wouldn't be saying much unless you actually met the guy. He is a good, stong-minded man; I can say at least that much. I never said religious people are stupid. I said that stupid people tend to be religious. There is, actually, a big difference.
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Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:53 am
Isaiah was never there when it happened!!I never said he was! You need to understand that he was writting this, originally, about the king of Babylon-but it also applies to Satan. The parallel is very clear to me, but perhaps not to you. I would ask you that if you have already read the passage, to read it again. And maybe take it in my perspective. You don't have to, but I ask that you would, please? I can't find the referance right now, but I think it was mentioned earlier in the forum.
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