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zz1000zz

PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:18 pm


Now, onto the issue that disturbs me most. Christians are condemning people for actions which are not clearly condemned by god. That means people are proclaiming their own views as the views of god. By doing so, they are making their views more important than god, and thus are proclaiming themselves as superior to god.

Perhaps god would despise abortions; however, he has not proclaimed that as a fact. If you say he has, you lie about god and are a heretic.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:40 pm


so then, the baby's death causes a fine. thus, it is a sin to kill the unborn. and, as we all know, all sins are equal. therefore, abortion is equal to murder on the sin-scale.

snap. you done bin loopholed.



and so you know, i never called abortion a sin before this point, and only did so to get through your thick head. i said it was wrong, using common logic and common sense. i never siad "god says that abortion is wrong", as it is in fact a crappy way of thinking, a stupid way of thinking that makes me understand groups like slipknot, nine-inch-nails, the likes.

see it visually, do not shroud it with excuses or euphemisms. do not hide under the half-truth of God never speaking agaisnt it specifically.


THINK. FOR. YOURSELF.

divineseraph


zz1000zz

PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:47 pm


divineseraph
so then, the baby's death causes a fine. thus, it is a sin to kill the unborn. and, as we all know, all sins are equal. therefore, abortion is equal to murder on the sin-scale.

snap. you done bin loopholed.


Because, you know we still go by the old testament here.

Quote:
and so you know, i never called abortion a sin before this point, and only did so to get through your thick head. i said it was wrong, using common logic and common sense.


It is wrong, but not a sin? Since when should your moral beliefs be seperate from religious beliefs?

Quote:
i never siad "god says that abortion is wrong", as it is in fact a crappy way of thinking, a stupid way of thinking that makes me understand groups like slipknot, nine-inch-nails, the likes.


Okay, you just lost the right to talk to me. You have no right to tell me what is wrong as a christian unless it is from god. That "crappy way of thinking" happens to be the only non-heretical way of being a christian.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:59 pm


zz1000zz
First, shooting someone in the head as that is murder, which god condemned. However, the bible never gives any indication an unborn child is considered a human for matters of this sort. Indeed, one passage you mentioned implies the opposite (as i stated earlier in this topic).

Exodus 21:22:
If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she has a miscarriage but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.


Now let us look at the next few verses.

Exodus 21:23-25
But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.


The baby's death causes a fine while the woman's injury causes more severe punishment. This implies the unborn child's life is not considered the same.

As most pro-abortion arguments, yours depends entirely on the notion that an unbron baby is somehow inhuman. You commit the same fallacy by saying that since God never specifically says unborn babies are people, they are not. God also never says "the sky is blue," is that also false? While the Bible is God's word, and represents what He says, it by no menas covers everything. A book could not hold everything God has to say about everything. As to the humanity of unborn children, the Bible also never specifically states the humanity of any number of groups of people. This does NOT mean they are not people. It just means that God didn't feel we needed to be told that. You cannot say, "God doesn't specify, so I can do whatever I want," regarding any specific topic.
Another passage: "Thus says the LORD, 'For three transgressions of the sons of Ammon and for four I will not revoke its punishment, Because they ripped open the pregnant women of Gilead In order to enlarge their borders.'" (Amos 1:13) This demonstrates God's disposition towards the situation, somewhat.
I found one site which put it like this: "Jesus demonstrated the love of God for children often during His ministry. In one passage, Jesus took a child to him and sat with him. He said, "See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you, that their angels in heaven continually behold the face of My Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 18:10). Jesus tells us not to despise or look down upon the least powerful and significant (by human standards) of humans. It is ironic that the most helpless humans are those inside the womb."
In general, I don't feel that humanity is somehow endowed upon a person by the mere act of passing through the birth canal. Given the location of this thread, I assume it would be unfitting to go into the secular reasoning against abortion (even though, as we both have said, the Bible is indirect).
Interesting way of putting the issue: "Everyone who supported slavey was free; Everyone who supports abortion was born; that's how opression works."

zz1000zz
Onto the issue of homosexuality. First, the translation of 1 Corinthians 6:9 is unclear, and there is little reason for it to include homosexuality. Indeed, the same is true of the passage from 1 Timothy you quoted. (For example, the NIV does not list homosexuality while the KJV does.) There is no clear condemnation of homosexuality upon which we can base beliefs.

Each passage that may condemn homosexuality can be brought into question as being a ceremonial law (which no longer applies) or as poor translation.

Do you have any proof of this? Can you bring a Hebrew-English analysis of the passages? Can you prove that they were "ceremonial" whatever that means? The statements you've just made prove nothing; they take lack of linguistic precision and try to make it nullify meaning. You must provide more support.

Jocken


zz1000zz

PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:19 pm


Jocken
-snip-


I offered an example of the bible implying a baby is not the same as a human. You failed to address it. As for your passage:

Amos 1:13
I will not revoke the punishment because they have ripped up women with child in Gilead, that they might enlarge their borders.


This refers to atrocities allegedly committed by Ammonite soldiers. Disemboweling pregnant women in that era would be almost certain to kill both the women and their fetuses. The reference to enlarging their border may mean that the Ammonites wanted to prevent children from being born who later might grow up to fight the Ammonites. The horrible nature of the crime appears to be directed at the killing of defenseless women; the deaths of the fetuses is not discussed.

Quote:
God also never says "the sky is blue," is that also false? While the Bible is God's word, and represents what He says, it by no menas covers everything.


The difference is that one is an observerable trait (humans can see the sky) while the other is an individual's thought (humans *cannot* read god's mind.)

Quote:
zz1000zz
Onto the issue of homosexuality. First, the translation of 1 Corinthians 6:9 is unclear, and there is little reason for it to include homosexuality. Indeed, the same is true of the passage from 1 Timothy you quoted. (For example, the NIV does not list homosexuality while the KJV does.) There is no clear condemnation of homosexuality upon which we can base beliefs.

Each passage that may condemn homosexuality can be brought into question as being a ceremonial law (which no longer applies) or as poor translation.

Do you have any proof of this? Can you bring a Hebrew-English analysis of the passages? Can you prove that they were "ceremonial" whatever that means? The statements you've just made prove nothing; they take lack of linguistic precision and try to make it nullify meaning. You must provide more support.


I will offer a brief response i found with a quick google search.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:22 pm


From ReligiousTolerance.org

Quote:
The Mosaic code, and its applicability today:

The Torah is composed of the first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). It contains numerous laws which make up the Mosaic code. Rabbi Simlai wrote in the Talmud (Jewish traditional commentary about the Hebrew Scriptures) that God gave 613 commandments to Moses. One list finds 3 commandments in Genesis, 111 in Exodus, 247 in Leviticus, 52 in Numbers and 200 in Deuteronomy. These included 365 prohibitions -- a number equal to the nominal number of days in the year. Also included 248 positive commandments which Rabbi Simlai said corresponded "to the number of organs and limbs in the human body." Hundreds of these dealt with animal sacrifices and other topics that are not currently practiced. That leaves about 300 commandments that can be practiced today.

The Holiness Code in the Torah permits:
bullet slavery (Leviticus 25:44)

The code requires:
a child to be killed if he/she curses their parent (Leviticus 20:9)
all persons guilty of adultery to be killed (20:10)
the daughter of a priest who engages in prostitution to be burned alive until dead (21:9)
the bride of a priest to be a virgin (21:13)
ritual killing of animals, using cattle, sheep and goats (22:19)
observation of 7 feasts: Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread, Feast of Firstfruits, Feast of Pentecost, Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, Feast of Tabernacles (23)
a person who takes the Lord's name in vain is to be killed (24:16)

The code prohibits:
heterosexual intercourse when a woman has her period (Leviticus 18:19),
harvesting the corners of a field (19:9),
eating fruit from a young tree (19:23),
cross-breeding livestock (19:19),
sowing a field with mixed seed (19:19),
shaving or getting a hair cut (19:27),
tattoos (19:2 cool ,
even a mildly disabled person from becoming a priest (21:1 cool ,
charging of interest on a loan (25:37),
collecting firewood on Saturday to prevent your family from freezing,
wearing of clothes made from a blend of textile materials; today this might be cotton and polyester, and
eating of non-kosher foods (e.g. shrimp).

Of the 613 laws, most Christian denominations regard very few as binding on Christians today. Conservative Christians often discuss:
the Ten Commandments found in three places -- one of them being Exodus 20:3-17.
Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 which relate to homosexuality.

They also accept laws which prohibit:
sexual contact between individuals who are too closely related,
out-of-species sexual contact,
adultery, and
laws regarding the execution of properly convicted murderers.

21st century Christians are free to wear tattoos, eat shrimp, pork or rare meat, wear polyester-cotton blends, seed their lawns with a grass mixture, and get their hair cut. But most conservative Christians consider homosexual behavior -- and sometimes merely having a homosexual orientation -- as taboo. At first, we were unable to find any logical explanation that would justify conservative Christians concentrating so much on these two laws against homosexuality while abandoning most of the remaining 611 Mosaic laws.

But further examination found the reason. Using an Protestant English translation of the Bible, they believe that the validity of the two anti-homosexual "clobber" passages in Leviticus has been verified by passages in Paul's Epistles. The NIV and KJV of the Bible clearly condemn homosexual behavior at 1 Corinthians 6:9 and Romans 1:28 in the Christian Scriptures. These translations generally interpret the Greek words "malakoi" and "arsenokoitai" as referring to homosexuals. We can be fairly certain that this is not the meaning that Paul wanted to convey. If he had, he would have used the Greek word "paiderasste." That was the standard term at the time for male homosexuals. We can conclude that he probably meant something different from persons who engaged in male-male adult sexual behavior. Down through the years, Christians have interpreted these words as referring to people of lacking a high moral standing, or to masturbators, or to men who sexually abuse boys, or to boys who are the victims of sexual abuse. Interpreting these passages as referring to sexually active homosexuals is simply the latest in a long series of attempts to make sense out of obscure words. The precise meaning is unknown.

zz1000zz


divineseraph

PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:49 pm


so, i' m a heretic for thinking for myself?

-prepare for sarcasm-

the bible doesn't say anything about slaves being bad. in fact, slaves are mentioned in the bible as normal. it's not a sin, so who are you to tell me that black people are really human, step on my rights? we all know they are just animals who can't read or learn or think, because God doesn't say they can.


see you at the next Klan meeting.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:19 pm


divineseraph
so, i' m a heretic for thinking for myself?

-prepare for sarcasm-

the bible doesn't say anything about slaves being bad. in fact, slaves are mentioned in the bible as normal. it's not a sin, so who are you to tell me that black people are really human,


In the bible, slaves are considered humans.

zz1000zz


ioioouiouiouio

PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:37 pm


zz1000zz

In the bible, slaves are considered humans.

As well as property.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:22 pm


and by basic biological law, feti are human. they contain human DNA and human genes, they are human. the only thing missing is personhood, the same fleeting definition which justified slavery, the same thing which justified the holocaust.

divineseraph


Atarashi No Sensei

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:07 am


zz1000zz
Now, onto the issue that disturbs me most. Christians are condemning people for actions which are not clearly condemned by god. That means people are proclaiming their own views as the views of god. By doing so, they are making their views more important than god, and thus are proclaiming themselves as superior to god.

Perhaps god would despise abortions; however, he has not proclaimed that as a fact. If you say he has, you lie about god and are a heretic.
As a true Christian we live in absolute obedience to God. We take what He says seriously and actually follow it. We don't just read something and excuse it as nothing because Jesus did not specifically state it. If a person truly wanted to walk with God, they'd take God's word seriously with fear and reverence for the Lord. There are also sins that fall under rebellion, which is abortion because it is not done out of LOVE.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:59 pm


-Sunset Wahine-
zz1000zz
Now, onto the issue that disturbs me most. Christians are condemning people for actions which are not clearly condemned by god. That means people are proclaiming their own views as the views of god. By doing so, they are making their views more important than god, and thus are proclaiming themselves as superior to god.

Perhaps god would despise abortions; however, he has not proclaimed that as a fact. If you say he has, you lie about god and are a heretic.
As a true Christian we live in absolute obedience to God. We take what He says seriously and actually follow it. We don't just read something and excuse it as nothing because Jesus did not specifically state it. If a person truly wanted to walk with God, they'd take God's word seriously with fear and reverence for the Lord. There are also sins that fall under rebellion, which is abortion because it is not done out of LOVE.


Uh-huh. You can decide for yourself if you want to believe something is a sin. I will not try to change your personal beliefs. What i will do is point out that you have no leg to stand on when you tell other people they are sinning if they have an abortion, or are gay. If you do tell them such, i will call you out as a heretic. Beyond that, i do not care.

You can believe whatever you want, i have no desire to disillusion you.

zz1000zz


zz1000zz

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:01 pm


divineseraph
and by basic biological law, feti are human. they contain human DNA and human genes, they are human. the only thing missing is personhood, the same fleeting definition which justified slavery, the same thing which justified the holocaust.


By your definition a strand of hair is a human. I suppose we should stop organ transplants, since those livers are humans too. "Personhood," or rather the soul, is the defining element in this topic, and you have done nothing to show a fetus has a soul.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:09 pm


since when has a hair follicle grown up to be a composer or teacher or even gang member?


you fail at even basic biology. cells that reproduce into complete humans are unlike any other cells in the human body simply for that reason. plus, hair cells are dead.

and when does this "personhood" exist? when you say so? jews weren't people. kill them, melt their fat into candles and soap.

bllacks aren't people. enslave them.

feti aren't people. kill them.

unless you believe in the personhood fairy, a magical creature who sprinkles life-dust on babies once they pop out of the mother. because as we all know (minus yourself, now that i think about your lack of biological wisdom) growth does not occur is steps as we like to label it- firstly, changes are gradual, a gradient. secondly, all humans grow at different speeds. although they stick around 9 months, they can be born before or after by months.


Sin is irrelevant compared to the lives thrown out every day.

1.4 million a year. not two or three single choices for women raped and injured. 1.4 million, 95% of which are not in the case of rape or health issues. this is not acceptable, regardless of wether or not God specifically says it.

divineseraph


zz1000zz

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 6:56 am


divineseraph
since when has a hair follicle grown up to be a composer or teacher or even gang member?


you fail at even basic biology.


When you quite being an a** and you want to have a discussion, feel free to post again. Until then, stop being a jerk in my topic.
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