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 Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:34 pm
ShadowCat495 PirateEire ShadowCat495 Se Ga Takai PirateEire >< Can we get back on topic? that, or we could just delete this thread and get back on topic in teh Original Topic. Wasn't that topis more on homosexuality in general, rather than marriage. Either way, I don't feel we were getting anywhere. We all were sticking to our own opinions and I didn't feel comfortable with all the fighting. I think healthy debate is a good thing. Hell, we might learn something here from one another. I think the problem lies in the ad hominems being tossed around here. Difference between that topic and this one, is that this one is outside of religious context, for the most part. While in the other, we will debate on the interpretations of various Bible passages, we will debate about the legal aspect of gay marriage in this topic. Seemed to me we were moving on to the following: Assuming (though I disagree) that Christianity states that homosexuality and gay marriage is a sin, should Christianity have any say in U.S. politics? If you ask me, being a European and not-too-long-ago immigrant to the U.S., I would say that church and state being seperate improves things quite a bit. Keep in mind that I come from a country where Christianity has a heavy influence, and causes a ridiculous amount of problems, and ten million social issues, not only with the general public, but between different Christian denominations as well. The U.S. being mostly free of such, I think it is best to keep church and state as seperate as possible. I think that human rights in an of themselves need to be recognized here, and that any right that does not harm another need not be denied. U.S. history is astounding. If you ask a number of people of this country what they think of the whites of the past who lived in the United States and actively denied blacks the same rights as themselves, subhumanizing them because they were a minority group who was much, much different from them, they will respond that they think the history of the U.S. is a bit shameful, and they will testify that they cannot understand how anyone could deny such a group basic things like the right to even walk amongst white people as a free black. Many people still struggle to understand those who denied interracial marriage as a right. Perhaps they would never marry someone of another race themselves, but they would never tell people they could not marry because of this difference. I think the issue is clear. Human rights are being denied. These rights harm no one, if granted. Why not grant them? Because of some religious/moral tabboo? I think that is utterly depressing. I was just saying that if we lets gay people get married, sooner or later it will become intergrated into normal american life style. Being a sin, this wouldn't be a good thing. I know everyone has their beliefs, but I don't like the thought of "anyone" going to hell. I mean, no matter what religion you are, you will more than likely think about other religions. I can see myself being an athiest....for like a second, until I realized that I'm doomed in almost every religion, and in the religions I'm not, it wouldn't matter how I acted, I'd share the same fate as everyone else. Even you, I can't bare the thought of you spending eternity in agony, but through my religion, that will be your fate if you don't change. {Now don't ask how I got there, but I did, and i mean what I say.} But basically, from what I said earlier, legalizing gay marriage will end up bringing more sinners, a lot of which won't know what they're doing is wrong. The reason I'm so determined not to have gay marriage legalized, is, I don't think my heart can take it gonk . The problem is, you believe, in a religious context, that homosexuality, and homosexual marriage, are both sins. There is nothing wrong with this. It is your religious belief. However, religious beliefs cannot have any place in making U.S. law. It violates a fundamental principle on which this country was founded. No matter what you believe, or who you pray to, laws should not ever be made on religous principles.
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Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:36 pm
DemigoddessHalfdemon No matter what you believe, or who you pray to, laws should not ever be made on religous principles. I think this is the general consensus thus far for most of us.
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Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:06 pm
Kawaii_Senpai I will take Abrahams stance on this (As well as Taki and Row). God destroyed Sodom and Gamorah for thier sexual imporality. Including homosexual imorality. Abraham lived there. Not once do I recall in the bible Abraham picketing or screaming at them or telling them they were wrong, etc. He lived the best life he knew how keeping it personal between him and Christ. He shared Christ with his family. And in all this God blessed Him. I say that to say that while I don't agree with the homosexual way of life basied off what the word says They have to get right with God for themselves just as much as we have to. We may not be homosexuals but there are other things in our lives that God dosen't like. All sins are the same to Him. And think of this, who would want to be a Christian if Christians are the ones yelling at them? Why would they want to be someone that hates them? (Not all Christians, im just giving a point here). They will see nothing in us that shows them love. They won't want what we should have. Personally I don't vote becasue my opinion is im prolonging the inevitable. I'd rather put my energy into sothing more lasting then that. I'd reather make a real difference in a pesonal relationship. Senp, Lot lived in Sodom. sweatdrop
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Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:40 pm
i like burnination Kawaii_Senpai I will take Abrahams stance on this (As well as Taki and Row). God destroyed Sodom and Gamorah for thier sexual imporality. Including homosexual imorality. Abraham lived there. Not once do I recall in the bible Abraham picketing or screaming at them or telling them they were wrong, etc. He lived the best life he knew how keeping it personal between him and Christ. He shared Christ with his family. And in all this God blessed Him. I say that to say that while I don't agree with the homosexual way of life basied off what the word says They have to get right with God for themselves just as much as we have to. We may not be homosexuals but there are other things in our lives that God dosen't like. All sins are the same to Him. And think of this, who would want to be a Christian if Christians are the ones yelling at them? Why would they want to be someone that hates them? (Not all Christians, im just giving a point here). They will see nothing in us that shows them love. They won't want what we should have. Personally I don't vote becasue my opinion is im prolonging the inevitable. I'd rather put my energy into sothing more lasting then that. I'd reather make a real difference in a pesonal relationship. Senp, Lot lived in Sodom. sweatdrop She said Sodom and Gamorah
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Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:56 pm
Se Ga Takai i like burnination Kawaii_Senpai I will take Abrahams stance on this (As well as Taki and Row). God destroyed Sodom and Gamorah for thier sexual imporality. Including homosexual imorality. Abraham lived there. Not once do I recall in the bible Abraham picketing or screaming at them or telling them they were wrong, etc. He lived the best life he knew how keeping it personal between him and Christ. He shared Christ with his family. And in all this God blessed Him. I say that to say that while I don't agree with the homosexual way of life basied off what the word says They have to get right with God for themselves just as much as we have to. We may not be homosexuals but there are other things in our lives that God dosen't like. All sins are the same to Him. And think of this, who would want to be a Christian if Christians are the ones yelling at them? Why would they want to be someone that hates them? (Not all Christians, im just giving a point here). They will see nothing in us that shows them love. They won't want what we should have. Personally I don't vote becasue my opinion is im prolonging the inevitable. I'd rather put my energy into sothing more lasting then that. I'd reather make a real difference in a pesonal relationship. Senp, Lot lived in Sodom. sweatdrop She said Sodom and Gamorah oh. i just remember Lot and Abraham going different directions in Genesis. i didn't know Abraham lived in that valley too. that's what i get for missing a Sunday ... whee
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Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:12 pm
Rowena Marion Whether or not it should be legal and whether or not I agree with it are two entirely different things. I don't agree with gay marriage. I do think it should be legal, based on our constitution and my (albeit somewhat limited) knowledge of civil liberty and the pattern of granted rights in our history. THE US constitution is against discrimination....and telling two people they legally can't marry is discrimination. I can sit around until the cows come home thinking about how I believe they shouldn't, but I have no right to tell them they can't. I agree with Rowena. I don't think it is right, and I don't think that the clergy should be allowed to be gay. But gay marriage can't be deemed illegal under the constitution. By the way, is this whole 'gay clergy in the Episcopal Church' thing making anyone else wondering about the state of the modern day church?
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Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:45 pm
Xairip By the way, is this whole 'gay clergy in the Episcopal Church' thing making anyone else wondering about the state of the modern day church? There is alot making me question the state of the modern church....I actually read the "religion" section of the local paper today....and, well, after reading an article about whether or not Catholics should stand or kneel during a section of service and a Dioseces in Orange Country where people who kneel when asked to stand are being asked to leave---FOLLOWED by an article about the new era of "home churches" (which sound IDENTICAL to my church's small group structure....well....I guess I'm just really thankful for my church family right now.
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:29 am
Xairip I don't think it is right, and I don't think that the clergy should be allowed to be gay. You don't think clergy should be allowed to be gay, or you don't believe gays should be allowed to be clergy? Are you against it because in your eyes, homosexuality is a sin, and the clergy should be free of sin? How long has it been since clergy in some denominations were actually allowed to marry to make an already "sinful" thing a little less sinful? Isn't it terrible that clergymen have sex nowadays? rolleyes Again, I fail to understand what makes homosexuality such an important sin, and others matter not. Kawaii_Senpai I will take Abrahams stance on this (As well as Taki and Row). God destroyed Sodom and Gamorah for thier sexual imporality. Including homosexual imorality. Abraham lived there. Not once do I recall in the bible Abraham picketing or screaming at them or telling them they were wrong, etc. He lived the best life he knew how keeping it personal between him and Christ. He shared Christ with his family. And in all this God blessed Him. I really don't think that homosexuality is the issue at hand in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. It is quite obviously the desire to rape two random strangers that is at hand. When was the last time you heard a case of an entire town of men, young and old, knocking on the door of someone who had two houseguests over, demanding to be able to have sex with them? I think the problem is that many people think gay people are only in to sex, and that they can't possibly love eachother. Does anyone here think like this? Does anyone here think that a homosexual is inherentley more perverted than a heterosexual? ShadowCat495 I was just saying that if we lets gay people get married, sooner or later it will become intergrated into normal american life style. Being a sin, this wouldn't be a good thing. I know everyone has their beliefs, but I don't like the thought of "anyone" going to hell. I mean, no matter what religion you are, you will more than likely think about other religions. I can see myself being an athiest....for like a second, until I realized that I'm doomed in almost every religion, and in the religions I'm not, it wouldn't matter how I acted, I'd share the same fate as everyone else. Even you, I can't bare the thought of you spending eternity in agony, but through my religion, that will be your fate if you don't change. {Now don't ask how I got there, but I did, and i mean what I say.} But basically, from what I said earlier, legalizing gay marriage will end up bringing more sinners, a lot of which won't know what they're doing is wrong. The reason I'm so determined not to have gay marriage legalized, is, I don't think my heart can take it gonk . What's wrong with it being integrated "normal" American lifestyle? Canada has allowed gay marriage. Is everyone suddenly gay in Canada due to this law? You believe that homosexuals will go to hell? How about aldulterers? Oh wait, didn't Jesus Christ wash away their sins or some such thing? Why is homosexuality punishable by eternal hellfire and brimstone if so many other sins are not? Keep in mind that Heaven and Hell cannot be proven, and your tenents cannot be proven as the law of the universe. Due to this, the US is not going to adopt religious law as it's own. I don't believe in an afterlife, period. I wish to live my life while I've got it, and not have someone denying me rights due to what I believe to be a hopeful delusion of an afterlife. If Heaven and Hell do exist, I won't be going to hell for being a lesbian--I'll go for being a Satanist. Then again, you have to think about what the Bible says Hell is. I'll never go to Gehenna, because I have no interest in going to Israel, much less a place where garbage is burnt. Hades--again, I don't believe in an afterlife, but should it exist, anyone and everyone who dies will go there. Tartarus isn't for silly mortals like me. Nothing in the Bible that is translated to "Hell" ought to concern me. I think you really shouldn't concern yourself with who's going to Hell, and who is not. If I am not mistaken, is there not a verse in the Bible that states that such a thing is not your's to decide? For someone like me, who will never ever believe in Heaven and Hell, much less any kind of afterlife, being told that I am not allowed to live my life the way I wish because a ton of other people are concerned with how I spend the time after I waste away... is like being told that I am not to ever enjoy a cookie in my entire life, because it will offend Santa Clause and I will never get to ride in his sleigh.
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:49 am
Yes, but the Bible also tells us to Witness to people who don't know the Truth. And Homosexuality is a sin, ergo people that are gay should not be clergy. All sins are punishable by going to hell, if you don't repent and accept Jesus Christ into your heart.
1 Corinthians 6:8-10 (New International Version):
8Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
And frankly, if you don't believe in the afterlife, then why are we arguing about something that concerns the afterlife? Its obvious neither of us is going to change our minds.
Also Pirate, you are correct about some things. Some things that have to due with Religion can only be proved through Faith, but others, like the existence of Christ, and his resurrection (or at least the fact that his body was not in his tomb, and was not taken away), and be proved through historical fact. By that I mean, historical fact in the sense that more than one source has confirmed that Christ's body at least was not in the tomb on Easter, and nobody took it. I can't really type out the whole thing here, so for more information, I suggest reading Lee Strobel's A Case for Easter, and perhaps even reading some of his other work.
Rowena: Why is the Church fighting about such trivialities when they could be helping other people come to Christ? Or raising money for their Church? My own Church is in severe money trouble. The state of today's Church is indeed troubling.
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:16 am
Xairip By the way, is this whole 'gay clergy in the Episcopal Church' thing making anyone else wondering about the state of the modern day church?
Something I never understood, though it is completely off-topic... how did we go from Jesus dying on the cross and being buried, then being resurected and ascending to heaven, to giant bunnies giving us little chocolate eggs? What the hell?
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:40 am
Superior Jazz Something I never understood, though it is completely off-topic... how did we go from Jesus dying on the cross and being buried, then being resurected and ascending to heaven, to giant bunnies giving us little chocolate eggs? What the hell? lol....wow...I actually have NO idea. but I don't think the two are actually connected...Christians began celebrating the resurection on the same day as a major pagan festival to avoid, basically, being killed for having a party, and I think that as the holiday evolved, both meanings kind of...melded. because really....where did the easter bunny comefrom.....?
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:54 pm
Xairip Yes, but the Bible also tells us to Witness to people who don't know the Truth. And Homosexuality is a sin, ergo people that are gay should not be clergy. All sins are punishable by going to hell, if you don't repent and accept Jesus Christ into your heart. "You're going to Hell, sinner" is not a good way to convert people. It's... actually incredibly uneffective. Xairip And frankly, if you don't believe in the afterlife, then why are we arguing about something that concerns the afterlife? Its obvious neither of us is going to change our minds. Because it concerns human rights in the here and now. Maybe your afterlife will be free of homosexuals. Right now, though, homosexuals exist, and we are people who should be entitled to the same rights as everyone else. I think conservative Christians against homosexual marriage fail to see that they are not "saving" anyone, they are using their tenents as an excuse to discriminate. Xairip Also Pirate, you are correct about some things. Some things that have to due with Religion can only be proved through Faith, but others, like the existence of Christ, and his resurrection (or at least the fact that his body was not in his tomb, and was not taken away), and be proved through historical fact. By that I mean, historical fact in the sense that more than one source has confirmed that Christ's body at least was not in the tomb on Easter, and nobody took it. I can't really type out the whole thing here, so for more information, I suggest reading Lee Strobel's A Case for Easter, and perhaps even reading some of his other work. I wasn't disputing the existence of Jesus Christ, though I have heard it disputed before... Whether he existed or not has nothing to do with the topic at hand: Gay Rights. Do you think Jesus would be for equal rights if he existed nowadays?
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:02 pm
PirateEire Xairip Yes, but the Bible also tells us to Witness to people who don't know the Truth. And Homosexuality is a sin, ergo people that are gay should not be clergy. All sins are punishable by going to hell, if you don't repent and accept Jesus Christ into your heart. "You're going to Hell, sinner" is not a good way to convert people. It's... actually incredibly uneffective. Xairip And frankly, if you don't believe in the afterlife, then why are we arguing about something that concerns the afterlife? Its obvious neither of us is going to change our minds. Because it concerns human rights in the here and now. Maybe your afterlife will be free of homosexuals. Right now, though, homosexuals exist, and we are people who should be entitled to the same rights as everyone else. I think conservative Christians against homosexual marriage fail to see that they are not "saving" anyone, they are using their tenents as an excuse to discriminate. Xairip Also Pirate, you are correct about some things. Some things that have to due with Religion can only be proved through Faith, but others, like the existence of Christ, and his resurrection (or at least the fact that his body was not in his tomb, and was not taken away), and be proved through historical fact. By that I mean, historical fact in the sense that more than one source has confirmed that Christ's body at least was not in the tomb on Easter, and nobody took it. I can't really type out the whole thing here, so for more information, I suggest reading Lee Strobel's A Case for Easter, and perhaps even reading some of his other work. I wasn't disputing the existence of Jesus Christ, though I have heard it disputed before... Whether he existed or not has nothing to do with the topic at hand: Gay Rights. Do you think Jesus would be for equal rights if he existed nowadays? I never said that I didn't think they should be allowed under the constitution. I just said it was wrong. And I don't know what side Jesus would be on, honestly. Because they didn't have a constitution back then. I also didn't say that telling people only that they were going to hell and that they were a sinner is a good way of converting people. That alone won't do it. Concerning Easter: Would you rather children bite of the heads of chocolate Jesuses?
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:20 pm
Xairip Concerning Easter: Would you rather children bite of the heads of chocolate Jesuses? Hey, I distinctly remember a verse where He said "eat, this is my body."
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:43 pm
the eggs and bunnies are a throwback to the pagan origins of Easter. It was initially celebrated as a celebration of fertility(Spring Love, anyone?), and teh Eggs and Bnnies were selected as representative as that because, well, teh eggs are obvious, and teh only thing more reproductive than bunnies are Utah Mormons(though they weren't as well known back then) xd
Most Christian Holidays actually carry Origins in Pagan Tradition, they were absorbed with the Culture back when Rome declared Christianity Religion #1.
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