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 Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:31 am
divineseraph Captain_Shinzo rmcdra Captain_Shinzo Omnipotence usually also goes with Omnipresence. You can't be one without the other from my understanding. Fair enough. Since I don't agree with stance 1, I'll leave that open for someone more well versed in it to argue for it. Quote: 2. But than that would make God omnipotent, but also the ideal term for matter. Not to mention if we go to this belief, I don't see why anyone wouldn't believe in this if Christian. Some Christian denominations reject 2. because such a stance implies such things as inward divinity, the possibility of theosis, and the possibility of transubstantiation.
It is saying God is imaged as everything but not everything itself.
The concept was that God was a metaphor for life and was created to show the living currently.
Like if someone said God is in everyone, they speak of the kindness we want God to be.Unless it is literal and refers to subtle force, soulstuff and energy. It goes like this- God-Soul-Energy-Matter. We have all parts but God, but all parts came from God. It is like how a child is half of each parent, genetically. Though it came from them, it is not them. While it was literally made through their bodies, of their bodies, it is not them. It's late, so I probably said this badly. It's fine. I got the idea. I was just saying how it referred to something I knew of.
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Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:32 am
Captain_Shinzo rmcdra Captain_Shinzo It seems to actually go into another belief, more of an Atheistic belief.
It is saying God is imaged as everything but not everything itself.
The concept was that God was a metaphor for life and was created to show the living currently.
Like if someone said God is in everyone, they speak of the kindness we want God to be. That doesn't seem to far off from a quote from one of my scriptures. Gospel of Phillip Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way. There is a rebirth and an image of rebirth. It is certainly necessary to be born again through the image. Which one? Resurrection. The image must rise again through the image. The bridal chamber and the image must enter through the image into the truth: this is the restoration. Here's the quote I was looking for: Gospel of Philip Jesus took them all by stealth, for he did not appear as he was, but in the manner in which they would be able to see him. He appeared to them all. He appeared to the great as great. He appeared to the small as small. He appeared to the angels as an angel, and to men as a man. Because of this, his word hid itself from everyone. Some indeed saw him, thinking that they were seeing themselves, but when he appeared to his disciples in glory on the mount, he was not small. He became great, but he made the disciples great, that they might be able to see him in his greatness.
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:12 am
i havnt read the posts before
but what makes God perfect? is because God tells us so..../letting us think so
no one can see the perfection in God... they just believe it (believing God is perfect)
for example.... is this world perfect? no.... is there anything in this world that is perfect?
so God is perfect in Its own perspective...this is just my perspective...
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:41 pm
HollywoodNobody i havnt read the posts before but what makes God perfect? is because God tells us so..../letting us think so no one can see the perfection in God... they just believe it (believing God is perfect) for example.... is this world perfect? no.... is there anything in this world that is perfect? so God is perfect in Its own perspective...this is just my perspective... Descartes actually made an argument based on this idea- All things that exist in degrees must have a pinnacle. Since this world is imperfect, that means that there must be something that IS perfect. And that thing that IS perfect is what we call God. That is roughly the argument, it went a bit further into detail, but I'm paraphrasing here.
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:58 pm
Captain_Shinzo xxEternallyBluexx Captain_Shinzo xxEternallyBluexx Captain_Shinzo xxEternallyBluexx We don't have the time to learn everything, and your mind discards things all the time that it doesn't think you need to know. Plus we don't have the senses to process everything that could possibly be processed, or the ability to be everywhere at once to process. God's outside of time, so He has all the time He needs (it's why He can focus on us all individually), and His mind can store it all without forgetting, and He can sense whatever He needs to. He's not limited, and we are, which is why He gets to know everything and we don't.
XD It's like we are making the greatest being ever, just thinking about it. Let's give him laser eyes, too. But I'm not talking about knowing everything, I mean knowing things he knows. It's not like, as I said, there is a boundary line. Our minds slowly progress and listing a common flaw will not disregard the fact that progression will continue to happen.
and again, this is if God IS perfect. If.
and, as I said, yes, our minds can forget things. However, that is why we have history, something to record it with. THAT can not just be erased so easily.
Here is one problem however I noticed you said, did you just state that God is omnipotent AND outside of time? ._____.
Being outside of time means being outside the universe.
( We will ignore time being a concept for the moment.)
If God is omnipotent, he can't be outside the universe.
EDIT: We don't have time? We have plenty of time.Time has a beginning. He can be outside of time, especially if He's existed forever. He can have laser eyes if we wants them *sarcasm completely lost on me* Ok...I just said we can know things He knows, and I also said He knows everything, so what are you asking? We still can't record every little moment. He knows every single moment. What's being all-powerful have to do with existing outside of time? Do you mean all-present? Anyway, I think it's two realms, one on top of the other, and the one He exists in is not temporal the way ours is. Lewis kinda explains it in Mere Christianity, and I just can't seem to put it down right. gonk Time enough to learn everything?
You can't be out of something that doesn't exactly exist. :
Now if we go to him existing outside the universe, that means he can't exactly be omnipotent since he isn't omnipresent I suppose.
Omnipresence is all-present, yes. If your Omnipotent, you are usually also omnipresent. However, you mentioned there was another realm outside of this realm. That would also have to be included as the Universe, then, so he would still be in the universe.
You argued that we could not know what he knew because it was out of our understanding. I'm arguing that there is no evidence that is isn't out of our understanding.
Well, time is a concept but there doesn't seem to ever be an end. So...we have loads of time. Unless you believe in the rapture that is, although I wouldn't like to include that.Why not? And omnipresence =/= omnipotence, btw. No, it wouldn't, at least not as we know it. Besides, I really don't want to get into that because I don't have anything except my mouth to shoot off for this one. I'm arguing that we can't know everything He knows, and that there's no reason to expect evidence. We don't have loads, because we die. And unless we had an infinite amount, it still wouldn't be enough to learn everything. And I do believe the world is gonna end soon, but what's that got to do with anything?
I know they aren't the same. =__= I'm saying, if something is omnipotent, then it must also be omnipresent. Omnipotence is related to omnipresence as to how it was made. Omnipotent beings are also omnipresent because of the entire meaning to omnipotent. Not just "all-powerful" but a lot more is there.
and why is that? That is the problem I am getting at. >.<
I meant the human race itself.
We aren't talking about knowing everything, but the basic and important knowings of God. Why is it that we can't know that? :
It is not impossible to learn everything. Maybe for one person, yes, but we are talking an entire race itself.
I was just relating the world might live longer than almost being destroyed like what the crappy Mayan Calender 2012 states.Sorry I've been gone a while, my computer's been having problems. >< Time's a dimension, like depth or width. It might be measured or defined by man, but time is not man's creation. It is God's, so of course He can be outside of it. Some of those things we can't know either. There's always going to be things man can't completely understand. We still wonder over love, and there's complex problems our greatest minds may never figure out. And I didn't realize you were speaking of the entire race, but I still disagree. Say what you will, I believe man will destroy itself before we have the chance to learn everything, and if we don't, there will still be knowledge beyond our grasp. Oh, that. I bet it's gonna be 2013, just for the irony. XD
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:28 am
What makes a perfect God? I can sum that up in one, or four word. God. Jesus. And the Holy Spirit.
By the way I'm Blue's sister, if you're going to yell at someone, yell at her.
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:52 am
soyjoy229 What makes a perfect God? I can sum that up in one, or four word. God. Jesus. And the Holy Spirit. By the way I'm Blue's sister, if you're going to yell at someone, yell at her. Thanks Soy. gonk xd Seriously though, she's not gonna be back, and I'm not gonna argue her points for her so...
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:32 am
soyjoy229 What makes a perfect God? I can sum that up in one, or four word. God. Jesus. And the Holy Spirit. By the way I'm Blue's sister, if you're going to yell at someone, yell at her.
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:41 am
xxEternallyBluexx Captain_Shinzo xxEternallyBluexx Captain_Shinzo xxEternallyBluexx Time has a beginning. He can be outside of time, especially if He's existed forever. He can have laser eyes if we wants them *sarcasm completely lost on me* Ok...I just said we can know things He knows, and I also said He knows everything, so what are you asking? We still can't record every little moment. He knows every single moment. What's being all-powerful have to do with existing outside of time? Do you mean all-present? Anyway, I think it's two realms, one on top of the other, and the one He exists in is not temporal the way ours is. Lewis kinda explains it in Mere Christianity, and I just can't seem to put it down right. gonk Time enough to learn everything?
You can't be out of something that doesn't exactly exist. :
Now if we go to him existing outside the universe, that means he can't exactly be omnipotent since he isn't omnipresent I suppose.
Omnipresence is all-present, yes. If your Omnipotent, you are usually also omnipresent. However, you mentioned there was another realm outside of this realm. That would also have to be included as the Universe, then, so he would still be in the universe.
You argued that we could not know what he knew because it was out of our understanding. I'm arguing that there is no evidence that is isn't out of our understanding.
Well, time is a concept but there doesn't seem to ever be an end. So...we have loads of time. Unless you believe in the rapture that is, although I wouldn't like to include that.Why not? And omnipresence =/= omnipotence, btw. No, it wouldn't, at least not as we know it. Besides, I really don't want to get into that because I don't have anything except my mouth to shoot off for this one. I'm arguing that we can't know everything He knows, and that there's no reason to expect evidence. We don't have loads, because we die. And unless we had an infinite amount, it still wouldn't be enough to learn everything. And I do believe the world is gonna end soon, but what's that got to do with anything?
I know they aren't the same. =__= I'm saying, if something is omnipotent, then it must also be omnipresent. Omnipotence is related to omnipresence as to how it was made. Omnipotent beings are also omnipresent because of the entire meaning to omnipotent. Not just "all-powerful" but a lot more is there.
and why is that? That is the problem I am getting at. >.<
I meant the human race itself.
We aren't talking about knowing everything, but the basic and important knowings of God. Why is it that we can't know that? :
It is not impossible to learn everything. Maybe for one person, yes, but we are talking an entire race itself.
I was just relating the world might live longer than almost being destroyed like what the crappy Mayan Calender 2012 states.Sorry I've been gone a while, my computer's been having problems. >< Time's a dimension, like depth or width. It might be measured or defined by man, but time is not man's creation. It is God's, so of course He can be outside of it. Some of those things we can't know either. There's always going to be things man can't completely understand. We still wonder over love, and there's complex problems our greatest minds may never figure out. And I didn't realize you were speaking of the entire race, but I still disagree. Say what you will, I believe man will destroy itself before we have the chance to learn everything, and if we don't, there will still be knowledge beyond our grasp. Oh, that. I bet it's gonna be 2013, just for the irony. XD
Wait wait, you can't just say Time is a dimension because it exists. Time is a concept and therefor does not exist, JUST like math. Width, Length, Volume, those actually DO exist. You can prove that. However, time is more of a measurement of something that is abstract. Just because it would be cool, because we go into the past and future, and just because the idea of going through time is thought of, does not mean the concept is real. and besides, I have told you time and time again that you can't be Omnipotent without Omnipresence.
Opinion after opinion I see...
Then all I can say is we can just wait.
XD lol. Nah. Nothing will happen in 2012 I bet. I remember one kid said it was going to be the rapture, but that made no sense. XD
Mostly because, as it is said in the Christian book, the rapture will only come when least expected. If anything, a lot of people are expecting the end of the world right now.
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:22 pm
Captain_Shinzo XD lol. Nah. Nothing will happen in 2012 I bet. I remember one kid said it was going to be the rapture, but that made no sense. XD Mostly because, as it is said in the Christian book, the rapture will only come when least expected. If anything, a lot of people are expecting the end of the world right now. People always think the end of the world is near eek It's nothing new. It's kind of dangerous actually, instead of sitting around waiting for a better world to be handed to us we could be working to make this one better, but then again that's what a good Christian should be doing anyways. Not saying that you think otherwise though, I'm just ranting sweatdrop I've never been a big fan of eschatology. I don't see the point in concentrating on the end.
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:51 pm
Captain_Shinzo soyjoy229 What makes a perfect God? I can sum that up in one, or four word. God. Jesus. And the Holy Spirit. By the way I'm Blue's sister, if you're going to yell at someone, yell at her. She's being simple. She's an rper, not a debater, so she doesn't really know how to back up her points. Plus she's only in middle school. Edit: Not that rpers or middle-schoolers can't debate, I just mean she's more of an expert on how to find good rps and be lit and make good post designs. She doesn't tend to argue theology.
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:55 pm
soyjoy229 What makes a perfect God? I can sum that up in one, or four word. God. Jesus. And the Holy Spirit. By the way I'm Blue's sister, if you're going to yell at someone, yell at her. The question was more "What are the qualities of a perfect God"- Namely, the precise functionalities and capabilities.
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:10 pm
Captain_Shinzo xxEternallyBluexx Captain_Shinzo xxEternallyBluexx Captain_Shinzo xxEternallyBluexx Time has a beginning. He can be outside of time, especially if He's existed forever. He can have laser eyes if we wants them *sarcasm completely lost on me* Ok...I just said we can know things He knows, and I also said He knows everything, so what are you asking? We still can't record every little moment. He knows every single moment. What's being all-powerful have to do with existing outside of time? Do you mean all-present? Anyway, I think it's two realms, one on top of the other, and the one He exists in is not temporal the way ours is. Lewis kinda explains it in Mere Christianity, and I just can't seem to put it down right. gonk Time enough to learn everything?
You can't be out of something that doesn't exactly exist. :
Now if we go to him existing outside the universe, that means he can't exactly be omnipotent since he isn't omnipresent I suppose.
Omnipresence is all-present, yes. If your Omnipotent, you are usually also omnipresent. However, you mentioned there was another realm outside of this realm. That would also have to be included as the Universe, then, so he would still be in the universe.
You argued that we could not know what he knew because it was out of our understanding. I'm arguing that there is no evidence that is isn't out of our understanding.
Well, time is a concept but there doesn't seem to ever be an end. So...we have loads of time. Unless you believe in the rapture that is, although I wouldn't like to include that.Why not? And omnipresence =/= omnipotence, btw. No, it wouldn't, at least not as we know it. Besides, I really don't want to get into that because I don't have anything except my mouth to shoot off for this one. I'm arguing that we can't know everything He knows, and that there's no reason to expect evidence. We don't have loads, because we die. And unless we had an infinite amount, it still wouldn't be enough to learn everything. And I do believe the world is gonna end soon, but what's that got to do with anything?
I know they aren't the same. =__= I'm saying, if something is omnipotent, then it must also be omnipresent. Omnipotence is related to omnipresence as to how it was made. Omnipotent beings are also omnipresent because of the entire meaning to omnipotent. Not just "all-powerful" but a lot more is there.
and why is that? That is the problem I am getting at. >.<
I meant the human race itself.
We aren't talking about knowing everything, but the basic and important knowings of God. Why is it that we can't know that? :
It is not impossible to learn everything. Maybe for one person, yes, but we are talking an entire race itself.
I was just relating the world might live longer than almost being destroyed like what the crappy Mayan Calender 2012 states.Sorry I've been gone a while, my computer's been having problems. >< Time's a dimension, like depth or width. It might be measured or defined by man, but time is not man's creation. It is God's, so of course He can be outside of it. Some of those things we can't know either. There's always going to be things man can't completely understand. We still wonder over love, and there's complex problems our greatest minds may never figure out. And I didn't realize you were speaking of the entire race, but I still disagree. Say what you will, I believe man will destroy itself before we have the chance to learn everything, and if we don't, there will still be knowledge beyond our grasp. Oh, that. I bet it's gonna be 2013, just for the irony. XD
Wait wait, you can't just say Time is a dimension because it exists. Time is a concept and therefor does not exist, JUST like math. Width, Length, Volume, those actually DO exist. You can prove that. However, time is more of a measurement of something that is abstract. Just because it would be cool, because we go into the past and future, and just because the idea of going through time is thought of, does not mean the concept is real. and besides, I have told you time and time again that you can't be Omnipotent without Omnipresence.
Opinion after opinion I see...
Then all I can say is we can just wait.
XD lol. Nah. Nothing will happen in 2012 I bet. I remember one kid said it was going to be the rapture, but that made no sense. XD
Mostly because, as it is said in the Christian book, the rapture will only come when least expected. If anything, a lot of people are expecting the end of the world right now.I'm actually probably not gonna be around much. I'll be on occasionally, but with my desktop having problems, I'm at my sister's mercy. crying We know time exists because we move forward in it. We can't stop a second from passing, or do anything but live in it. As for it it being a dimension, I'm gonna see what I can find on that. The other three dimensions are spatial, which makes me wonder whether time counts or not. Anyway, just because it's abstract, doesn't mean it's not real (if that's what you're saying. I'm getting the distinct feeling I missed the point). Yep. ^^ I don't know about the Rapture being real, but I wouldn't be surprised if the world did end. There's a major species wipeout going on, the earth's temperature is going up, there's meteors they think are gonna wipe us out, there's overpopulation and the constant war problem, and of course some idiot could unleash a nuclear warhead and kill many people. Besides that, we're discovering things at an increased rate, like they believe they may discover the secret of immortality, or something close to it soon. I think the Lord doesn't want us to know that, so He'll come back before that happens. And the Gospel has been spread in a great many places, and once it's been everywhere, that's supposed to be another sign He'll be back soon.
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Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:46 am
xxEternallyBluexx Captain_Shinzo xxEternallyBluexx Captain_Shinzo xxEternallyBluexx Why not? And omnipresence =/= omnipotence, btw. No, it wouldn't, at least not as we know it. Besides, I really don't want to get into that because I don't have anything except my mouth to shoot off for this one. I'm arguing that we can't know everything He knows, and that there's no reason to expect evidence. We don't have loads, because we die. And unless we had an infinite amount, it still wouldn't be enough to learn everything. And I do believe the world is gonna end soon, but what's that got to do with anything?
I know they aren't the same. =__= I'm saying, if something is omnipotent, then it must also be omnipresent. Omnipotence is related to omnipresence as to how it was made. Omnipotent beings are also omnipresent because of the entire meaning to omnipotent. Not just "all-powerful" but a lot more is there.
and why is that? That is the problem I am getting at. >.<
I meant the human race itself.
We aren't talking about knowing everything, but the basic and important knowings of God. Why is it that we can't know that? :
It is not impossible to learn everything. Maybe for one person, yes, but we are talking an entire race itself.
I was just relating the world might live longer than almost being destroyed like what the crappy Mayan Calender 2012 states.Sorry I've been gone a while, my computer's been having problems. >< Time's a dimension, like depth or width. It might be measured or defined by man, but time is not man's creation. It is God's, so of course He can be outside of it. Some of those things we can't know either. There's always going to be things man can't completely understand. We still wonder over love, and there's complex problems our greatest minds may never figure out. And I didn't realize you were speaking of the entire race, but I still disagree. Say what you will, I believe man will destroy itself before we have the chance to learn everything, and if we don't, there will still be knowledge beyond our grasp. Oh, that. I bet it's gonna be 2013, just for the irony. XD
Wait wait, you can't just say Time is a dimension because it exists. Time is a concept and therefor does not exist, JUST like math. Width, Length, Volume, those actually DO exist. You can prove that. However, time is more of a measurement of something that is abstract. Just because it would be cool, because we go into the past and future, and just because the idea of going through time is thought of, does not mean the concept is real. and besides, I have told you time and time again that you can't be Omnipotent without Omnipresence.
Opinion after opinion I see...
Then all I can say is we can just wait.
XD lol. Nah. Nothing will happen in 2012 I bet. I remember one kid said it was going to be the rapture, but that made no sense. XD
Mostly because, as it is said in the Christian book, the rapture will only come when least expected. If anything, a lot of people are expecting the end of the world right now.I'm actually probably not gonna be around much. I'll be on occasionally, but with my desktop having problems, I'm at my sister's mercy. crying We know time exists because we move forward in it. We can't stop a second from passing, or do anything but live in it. As for it it being a dimension, I'm gonna see what I can find on that. The other three dimensions are spatial, which makes me wonder whether time counts or not. Anyway, just because it's abstract, doesn't mean it's not real (if that's what you're saying. I'm getting the distinct feeling I missed the point). Yep. ^^ I don't know about the Rapture being real, but I wouldn't be surprised if the world did end. There's a major species wipeout going on, the earth's temperature is going up, there's meteors they think are gonna wipe us out, there's overpopulation and the constant war problem, and of course some idiot could unleash a nuclear warhead and kill many people. Besides that, we're discovering things at an increased rate, like they believe they may discover the secret of immortality, or something close to it soon. I think the Lord doesn't want us to know that, so He'll come back before that happens. And the Gospel has been spread in a great many places, and once it's been everywhere, that's supposed to be another sign He'll be back soon. Well, the other three are directional. I heard a good analogy for this- Imagine you are supposed to meet in a building. The first two dimensions are used to find that building on a map, and the correct room in that building. The third dimension tells you which floor. The fourth dimension is when you are to meet- If you get any of them wrong, you will miss the meeting. So in that regard, time is a locational dimension because it specifies where something is.
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Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:23 pm
xxEternallyBluexx Captain_Shinzo soyjoy229 What makes a perfect God? I can sum that up in one, or four word. God. Jesus. And the Holy Spirit. By the way I'm Blue's sister, if you're going to yell at someone, yell at her. She's being simple. She's an rper, not a debater, so she doesn't really know how to back up her points. Plus she's only in middle school. Edit: Not that rpers or middle-schoolers can't debate, I just mean she's more of an expert on how to find good rps and be lit and make good post designs. She doesn't tend to argue theology.
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