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 Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 8:32 pm
Saddest Shade of Kitsune xxEternallyBluexx Saddest Shade of Kitsune xxEternallyBluexx Saddest Shade of Kitsune I do not believe he "started" anything at all. Allah chooses who He wishes to be His prophets, therefore opinion doesn't matter either way. & there is no "it can apply here, but not there" in Islam because it goes for all of time. We are to follow what God prescribed for us (I hope you know Allah = the One & Only God-- that's the english translation so your God & my God are the same since there is only ONE GOD. Hope that clears up anything). There is complete evidence that the Bible & Torah are changed. Look at all the versions! There are children's bible's! & do you know what some of them do? They put it into different language (as in, more "modern" terms) & say things like "God hates gays." (I've actually read one that said exactly that, tell me that's not changing the word of God & I will know there's some incompetency here [not saying you will, but seriously >> <<]) I've seen so many versions, some with things left out & other things with parts added. Some people have rephrased some versus in their own words as well (-cough- King James version -cough-). There is no way to be able to tell what was & what wasn't originally there so therefore there was a complete need for the Qur'an otherwise there would be no TRUE message for people to follow because there are so many skewed messages out there. Yeah, Allah sent prophets to correct what was being done wrong & that's why he sent Muhammad to finally finish everything so we could follow the path that we are supposed to without having to wonder what way was the "right way" (that is debated often since there are sects & such things [sadly there are splits in Islam, but I don't follow any of them since it's not supposed to be that way]). & Jesus wasn't sent to "save" people. He was a messenger. The only one who can save anyone is GOD & Jesus was human. The whole God reincarnated as a human to share our struggles idea is not even valid since He already understands them completely & has no need to live here to forgive us for our sins. He is perfect & wouldn't need to become imperfect to help us. That's a conflicting view that has no sense nor logic nor anything to support it at all. Sorry, but seriously, think about it. In Islam, we HAVE to have proofs because Allah expects us to use our brains as well as our hearts in our faith. I'll reply to the other post tomorrow. He does choose, but He that doesn't mean there aren't false prophets, or people who pretend to have a revelation. When that's the case, it is man starting something and not God's Will. I think that's how it is with Muhammed, so it was just him starting something and not of God at all. (And yeah, I knew about the Allah translates as God thing, but I'm not sure I agree. ><) Yeah, there's a lot of versions, so...? Most of them say pretty much the same thing, including the children's Bible's. Some just have special notes, or they're just the NT, or they have a dictionary. The Message, which is supposed to be the modern day interpretation, even admits it may not be entirely right and says it's better used as a tool for understanding a better version of the Bible. And when a Bible is completely off, most Christians won't use it. As for parts being added, and taken off, I haven't seen that (except for maybe a group like the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses). The Bible's I've seen all have Genesis through Revelations. Nothing left out, and nothing taken away. Plus, most of the versions were written after Muhammed put out his interpretion, so that's not a great argument. >< Besides, do you really believe that God would allow His Word to become screwed up, and then send a single guy to fix it? I think He'd make a bigger deal out of it. And the Bible and the Quran don't agree for the most part. If the Quran is supposed to be a correction of the Bible, then why is it so off? Then why doesn't Jesus call Himself a 'messenger'? What you're saying completely conflicts with what Jesus said. Quote: I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic -- on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg -- or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. – Mere Christianity, pages 40-41. CS Lewis had it right. He needed to be human so He could pay the price for our sins, which was death. His blood provides us the way back to God. It couldn't be anyone else, it had to be God's Son because He was the only one perfect enough (God used to demand flawless animal sacrifices. See the connection?) Jesus needed to become man to fix what the first Adam screwed up, and give us an example to live by. God loves us enough He didn't just give us instructions, He gave us an example-one who came to died for us because God loves us dearly and wanted to provide a way back. He couldn't just say it was fine, there was a price that had to be paid, and that's what Jesus did for us. http://www.indyopc.org/whyman.htmlAs well as all that stuff up there, there's other proofs that Jesus is the Son and far more important then just being a messenger, like the stories in which He randomly reveals Himself to someone who doesn't know Him (there was one about an Islamic fundamentalist who was going around killing Christians until he opened up the Bible and realized the truth, and there's plenty of other stories like that). There's also stories about people dying and there being a Presence, which they later realize is Jesus. In Return from Tomorrow, the man automatically knows it's the Son of God, and the moment he starts to consider Jesus is an angel or not that important, he realizes he's wrong. How do you explain all that?
“Why do you call me good: No one is good but One, that is, God.” (Matthew 9:17, Mark 10-18, and Luke 18:19)
“My Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28 )
“I do nothing of myself, but as the Father taught me, I speak these things.” (John 8:28 )
“Most assuredly, I say to you, the son can do nothing of himself …” (John 5:19)
“But I know Him, for I am from Him, and He sent me.” (John 7:29)
“He who rejects me rejects Him who sent me.” (Luke 10:16)
“But now I go away to Him who sent me …” (John 16:5)
“Jesus answered them and said, ‘My doctrine is not mine, but His who sent me.’” (John 7:16)
“For I have not spoken on my own authority; but the Father who sent me gave me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.” (John 12:49)
“The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear O Israel, The Lord our God, the Lord is one.” (Mark 12:29)
“But of that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Mark 13:32)
“‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’” (Luke 4:8 )
“My food is to do the will of Him who sent me …” (John 4:34)
“I can of myself do nothing … I do not seek my own will but the will of the Father who sent me.” (John 5:30)
“For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him who sent me.” (John 6:38 )
“My doctrine is not mine, but His who sent me.” (John 7:16)
“I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God.” (John 20:17)
These all show that Jesus is HUMAN & could do nothing unless Allah wills it. He was gifted because Allah allowed him to be as such. & Jesus didn't die. He was raised up before he was killed, by the mercy of Allah & one who looked like him was put in his place. Allah can do anything. The whole, seeing Jesus rise again is off because Allah sent him down to tell those he was close to that he was okay & that he had been raised up before death. Not raised from the dead, just allowed to say some last good byes. & Adam's sin was forgiven right away. There was always sin, no original sin. The whole situation with Iblis (he is a Satan, it is not a name, but is to describe those who oppose God) shows that, for He did not bow down to man when Allah told him to do so. He sinned. (I know you probably don't know what I'm talking about with the Satan part since Christianity & Islam differ greatly there.) Anyway, the reason Jesus could perform miracles is NOT because he was God. It was because he was given the ability by Allah. He could not do it unless it was Allah's will as the above verses denote. To explain all those things, you do know that there are beings that can lead us to believe wrongly, right? We call them Jinns (Iblis is the Jinn that is condemned to Hell though & who tries to fool us most of all). They do things to make people believe in the false divinity of Jesus when he was only a human. He leads us astray & takes advantage of people. It happens often. That explains everything. Hm...still don't have time to reply to the other post. Way too much going on here. All I can say is that you & I are of different faiths & that is how it is. Allah will judge us fairly on the Day of Judgment. I feel no anger against you though you don't share my beliefs. That doesn't change what I know to be true.True, but the same holds true for you. You can claim Muhammed was a prophet as much as you like, and if he wasn't, it doesn't make it true. It's a double-edged sword, but a good one, because God is truly in control. ^^ Blood does need to be spilled, because when we sin, we lose our ability to go into God's Presence. The blood covers us. That's the reason for the sacrifices originally, and why God made Adam Eve clothes by killing an innocent animal-it's an important sacrifice that pays for sin. Just because Islam ignores it, doesn't mean it wasn't necessary. And yes, God can take the burden of our sins from us because we've all earned Hell, and He doesn't want to see us go there. You may not want to believe it, and you don't have to, but the fact lies there anyway. We've all screwed us, and we all need salvation. And there's not more then one truth, but there are different ways of putting it. Like you could say 'the sky is blue', but you could also say 'the atmosphere looks cerulean'. You might not be able to do that in other languages, but English tends to have 3 or 4 four words for everything, and more for some others, so of course there are different ways of putting the truth. Yes, the translations aren't necessarily always perfect, so someone studying the Bible should compare different Bibles and try and learn some of the original greek and hebrew if possible, but that doesn't mean the Bible's screwed up. Plus, I'm pretty sure the Koran wasn't written in English, so isn't it just as screwy? He didn't create evil. He created the potential for evil. There's a huge difference. He allowed the Koran to be written because of a promise to Ishmael. He didn't send it though. And no, it's not obvious it's off. Otherwise, Christianity have the most followers worldwide, and there wouldn't be people who have studied the Bible more closely then either of us claiming it was true. You can say you think it's off, you can try to provide proof of it, but you can't say it's obvious. That's silly. And you can't just claim my Holy Book was changed and yours wasn't because God wanted it that way. If He's all-powerful, He'd stop the Bible from being changed in the first place. And what makes you think you know God's Will? Because I'm afraid that's kinda what you sound like. You don't know it. God actually talks to people in my church, and me on a regular basis, and I don't claim I know His Will. Does He do that with you? Those quotes show He was providing an example for us as the Last Adam. He lived as a human so He could show us how to live, and He was human, but He was God at the same time. (That's Trinity. There's another topic somewhere around here that has a link to CS Lewis's explanation. You should check it out, cause when I try to explain it, I fail. XD) He did die, and then He was raised up. God wouldn't send Him back for something as silly as 'last good-byes'. That would be no big deal. That's a complete bs interpretation of what happened. It's so outrageous, it made me laugh. Really? Just, really? xd I don't mean to be mean, and I know your sincere, but I really can't believe you believe that. sweatdrop (It's like someone trying to convince me the earth is flat or something... biggrin ) Sin has not existed eternally. Only God has. And yeah, you might want to be a little clearer on the whole Islamic version of sin. All I know is jinns were supposedly involved. But God's Will and Jesus's were the same because they're both God. They agree on everything, so it's not any ability given to Him be God. And those jinns, who we call demons, are what we believe drive the Islamic faith and other religions and their miracles. They do a lot of other bad stuff too, like cause depression, illness, etc. It's weird how similar, but different those beliefs are, neh? After all, satan's the father of lies, so no wonder we'd both think the other faith was being decieved. I know, and I'm not angry too. I'm learning a lot here, though a lot of it is pretty...outrageous to me. I honestly like you, even if it's hard to believe you think those things. Ah well, I guess we can always pray for each other. ^^ I could never find what I've found in Christianity in any other religion though...It's the only truth I'll walk by. Edit:I gotta put this quote down, because it kinda applies, and I love the way Madeline L'Engle says stuff: Quote: What I believe is so magnificent, so glorious, that it is beyond finite comprehension. To believe that the universe was created by a purposeful, benign Creator is one thing. To believe that this Creator took on human vesture, accepted death and mortality, was tempted, betrayed, broken, and all for love of us, defies reason. It is so wild that it terrifies some Christians who try to dogmatize their fear by lashing out at other Christians, because tidy Christianity with all answers given is easier than one which reaches out to the wild wonder of God's love, a love we don't even have to earn.
Yes, He does have all the control. -smiles- Seriously, blood does not need to be spilled for humanity. We will find out where we go based on what we do & believe...-shakes head- It was not up to one person (& especially not their sacrifice) to determine if we can be saved from Hellfire. God has the full ability to send us where He wills. We are not inherently evil though we have the ability to act as such. Actually, we believe we have a good nature. We're easily tempted & swayed though. These are my beliefs & I stand beside them, unswayed. Anyway, moving on...Why would we lose our ability to be in God's presence? First of all, He knows everything & we are all in His presence right now & also, we always are able to repent & be forgiven if we believe in Him & His Oneness. Animals are not the same as a person...You cannot be rid of all your sins because of a sacrifice of any kind. You must ask for forgiveness, fully submit, & humble yourself before your God. & we don't ignore the sacrifice of animal bit...We consider it worship of Him...That's why we have halal meat (which is an animal slaughtered in His name) & we have Eid (a holiday in which we eat sheep [typically] as thanks to Allah that Abraham was able to sacrifice a ram instead of his own son [though he was willing to do anything for Allah]).
We have not all earned Hell. Even though we sin, that does not mean we are initially damned. The concept of Original sin doesn't make sense because He forgave Adam & Eve since they repented, but more importantly, we are responsible for our own deeds. He is the Ever-Merciful. He does not hold grudges, He keeps His promises that He will forgive all those who ask Him to forgive them if they truly believe. He does not need to make a person innocent of the sins of everyone else suffer. He is Almighty & is not cruel & does not put the burden of others onto anyone for He is true to His word.
There are different ways of putting the truth, but there are also ways of changing it to something that sounds similar but is not the same. -shakes head- Most people don't realize that changes that were made since there is no way to know what was the original writing. That's why we believe that the Torah & Bible are the word of God, but humans changed it so much that none of us can discern what is the word & what is human word. No, the Qu'ran wasn't written in English, but that's why it's the best if we learn Arabic (we have to for our prayers to mean the most).
He did create evil. To say He didn't create everything that is not Him is slandering Him. We were created with the potential to do evil, but evil wouldn't exist if He didn't create. That wouldn't make any sense. Nothing could exist without Him.
He allowed the Qu'ran to be written because He decreed that all the people's deserved the word so they could follow Him & He alone. The reason Christians have the most believers worldwide is because they have missionaries. They may do good things, but it's not right to do something for someone & then have the implication that they should follow what you believe. That's like handing someone candy & saying "If you follow this way, you'll be greatly rewarded." That's influencing someone & that leads to compulsion. There are people who have the Qu'ran memorized...which is the closest study there could be. I'm not "claiming" something. There is fact & truth of it. Go look at the progression of the changing! There is proof in that. All these "versions" are based on what people put in & took out. Even the whole concept of Jesus as God was eventually added into Christianity after the Bible was written. It wouldn't make sense if Allah stopped the Bible from being changed though because people were already being led astray. Humans will easily do that because we are created that way. It shows just how much we NEED Him. We are nothing without Him. We have to rely on Him so that we will not be led astray, there is no other way. Things are meant to happen certain ways, that's why He can let it be changed. Only He knows why. I do not know His will. Only He does. So why are you acting like you know it as well? He wouldn't change the Bible, as you said? How would you know? Think about it.
Though I know not what He does, he warns us that there are Jinn that will speak to us as if they are Allah. All I know is that He knows all.
-shakes head- This is where I cannot believe that Christians believe this...God would not be human, EVER. That defeats the whole divinity aspect so much. That makes no sense at all. He is above us all. There is need for Him to live as a human because there were many examples for us such as Moses, Abraham, Noah, & Muhammad (to name a few). Muhammad was the best example though. God does not do humanly things. We may be created in His image, but He is not like us.
Allah promised Jesus that he would die a natural death, so he was raised up to be saved from those who would hurt him. Trying to argue that Jesus died also implies God died which cannot work at all. He cannot be hurt by humans...None on this earth or in the heavens have power to slay Him. He wouldn't have come down to us in any form because He is One. Allah connects to us in other ways. Now I'm not sure where I got the whole Jesus coming back part...I need to look that up so I am knowledgeable about what completely happened. We believe he was raised & that he still is alive, in Heaven & is awaiting the second coming (which is very similar to the Christian view, but not the same in most ways at all.........). & how is any of it outrageous? Thanks for the laughing, that shows true consideration & seriousness in debate. -_- I'm unsure of where I got the returning part, 'cause I was trying to see if there was anything about that in our beliefs, but I'm not seeing any of it. I'll let you know as soon as I can. -smiles- Okay, yes. I meant that sin has been around ever since we were created (as in always for humanity). No, Jinns are not completely involved. They are created from fire, but can also be Muslims (though they have a more sinful nature a lot of the time). Humans & Jinns sin, which is defined as overall causing harm to themselves, others, or basically creation. If one disbelieves, one is harming oneself because one is turning away from Allah & one is also more than likely harming others because humans influence one another & usually act in sinful ways when they do not follow Him. The one who tries to help humans & jinns fall into sin is Iblis (who we call the main Shaytaan [Satan]) who is a jinn who disobeyed Allah & has committed himself to get as many humans into Hell as he can.
Humans can do nothing without Allah's will. Jesus was human. He could not be God at the same time because God is Almighty, Great, not human-like at all. We don't believe that jinns 'cause all these things...there are some that are good as well. They do great things since they were created from fire & given abilities that we were not (why do you think there are magicians & other amazing things?) They have "powers," but much of the time they abuse them.
Satan can do nothing if Allah protects one from him though. It goes either way.
What you believe is just as "outrageous" to me, but it's good to learn about something you don't believe in because you can have even more faith in your belief. I like you as well. You're very good at bringing up various points & I really look for that in people. It's very admirable. & the same goes for me in that I have no faith except that in Allah & what He has shown to be true.
As for your quote...it made me shake my head, but I won't reply because I know what I know & it seems that I cannot change your mind. I realize that some are meant to follow Islam & others are not. It is all Allah's will. To be fair, the same arguments could be used by the opposition. If God is so powerful, why CAN'T He choose to be a mortal for a bit, or show up in mortal form? God can't be hurt, this is true- But God is not the mortal body he inhabits, just as you are not the mortal body you inhabit. God is God. If God inhabits a mortal body, the rules still apply. That, and could it not be argued that the idea of God that Christians have knows that some are not meant for Christianity, and it's all HIS plan for some to go astray into Islam?
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Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:30 pm
divineseraph Saddest Shade of Kitsune xxEternallyBluexx Saddest Shade of Kitsune xxEternallyBluexx He does choose, but He that doesn't mean there aren't false prophets, or people who pretend to have a revelation. When that's the case, it is man starting something and not God's Will. I think that's how it is with Muhammed, so it was just him starting something and not of God at all. (And yeah, I knew about the Allah translates as God thing, but I'm not sure I agree. ><) Yeah, there's a lot of versions, so...? Most of them say pretty much the same thing, including the children's Bible's. Some just have special notes, or they're just the NT, or they have a dictionary. The Message, which is supposed to be the modern day interpretation, even admits it may not be entirely right and says it's better used as a tool for understanding a better version of the Bible. And when a Bible is completely off, most Christians won't use it. As for parts being added, and taken off, I haven't seen that (except for maybe a group like the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses). The Bible's I've seen all have Genesis through Revelations. Nothing left out, and nothing taken away. Plus, most of the versions were written after Muhammed put out his interpretion, so that's not a great argument. >< Besides, do you really believe that God would allow His Word to become screwed up, and then send a single guy to fix it? I think He'd make a bigger deal out of it. And the Bible and the Quran don't agree for the most part. If the Quran is supposed to be a correction of the Bible, then why is it so off? Then why doesn't Jesus call Himself a 'messenger'? What you're saying completely conflicts with what Jesus said. CS Lewis had it right. He needed to be human so He could pay the price for our sins, which was death. His blood provides us the way back to God. It couldn't be anyone else, it had to be God's Son because He was the only one perfect enough (God used to demand flawless animal sacrifices. See the connection?) Jesus needed to become man to fix what the first Adam screwed up, and give us an example to live by. God loves us enough He didn't just give us instructions, He gave us an example-one who came to died for us because God loves us dearly and wanted to provide a way back. He couldn't just say it was fine, there was a price that had to be paid, and that's what Jesus did for us. http://www.indyopc.org/whyman.htmlAs well as all that stuff up there, there's other proofs that Jesus is the Son and far more important then just being a messenger, like the stories in which He randomly reveals Himself to someone who doesn't know Him (there was one about an Islamic fundamentalist who was going around killing Christians until he opened up the Bible and realized the truth, and there's plenty of other stories like that). There's also stories about people dying and there being a Presence, which they later realize is Jesus. In Return from Tomorrow, the man automatically knows it's the Son of God, and the moment he starts to consider Jesus is an angel or not that important, he realizes he's wrong. How do you explain all that?
“Why do you call me good: No one is good but One, that is, God.” (Matthew 9:17, Mark 10-18, and Luke 18:19)
“My Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28 )
“I do nothing of myself, but as the Father taught me, I speak these things.” (John 8:28 )
“Most assuredly, I say to you, the son can do nothing of himself …” (John 5:19)
“But I know Him, for I am from Him, and He sent me.” (John 7:29)
“He who rejects me rejects Him who sent me.” (Luke 10:16)
“But now I go away to Him who sent me …” (John 16:5)
“Jesus answered them and said, ‘My doctrine is not mine, but His who sent me.’” (John 7:16)
“For I have not spoken on my own authority; but the Father who sent me gave me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.” (John 12:49)
“The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear O Israel, The Lord our God, the Lord is one.” (Mark 12:29)
“But of that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Mark 13:32)
“‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’” (Luke 4:8 )
“My food is to do the will of Him who sent me …” (John 4:34)
“I can of myself do nothing … I do not seek my own will but the will of the Father who sent me.” (John 5:30)
“For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him who sent me.” (John 6:38 )
“My doctrine is not mine, but His who sent me.” (John 7:16)
“I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God.” (John 20:17)
These all show that Jesus is HUMAN & could do nothing unless Allah wills it. He was gifted because Allah allowed him to be as such. & Jesus didn't die. He was raised up before he was killed, by the mercy of Allah & one who looked like him was put in his place. Allah can do anything. The whole, seeing Jesus rise again is off because Allah sent him down to tell those he was close to that he was okay & that he had been raised up before death. Not raised from the dead, just allowed to say some last good byes. & Adam's sin was forgiven right away. There was always sin, no original sin. The whole situation with Iblis (he is a Satan, it is not a name, but is to describe those who oppose God) shows that, for He did not bow down to man when Allah told him to do so. He sinned. (I know you probably don't know what I'm talking about with the Satan part since Christianity & Islam differ greatly there.) Anyway, the reason Jesus could perform miracles is NOT because he was God. It was because he was given the ability by Allah. He could not do it unless it was Allah's will as the above verses denote. To explain all those things, you do know that there are beings that can lead us to believe wrongly, right? We call them Jinns (Iblis is the Jinn that is condemned to Hell though & who tries to fool us most of all). They do things to make people believe in the false divinity of Jesus when he was only a human. He leads us astray & takes advantage of people. It happens often. That explains everything. Hm...still don't have time to reply to the other post. Way too much going on here. All I can say is that you & I are of different faiths & that is how it is. Allah will judge us fairly on the Day of Judgment. I feel no anger against you though you don't share my beliefs. That doesn't change what I know to be true.True, but the same holds true for you. You can claim Muhammed was a prophet as much as you like, and if he wasn't, it doesn't make it true. It's a double-edged sword, but a good one, because God is truly in control. ^^ Blood does need to be spilled, because when we sin, we lose our ability to go into God's Presence. The blood covers us. That's the reason for the sacrifices originally, and why God made Adam Eve clothes by killing an innocent animal-it's an important sacrifice that pays for sin. Just because Islam ignores it, doesn't mean it wasn't necessary. And yes, God can take the burden of our sins from us because we've all earned Hell, and He doesn't want to see us go there. You may not want to believe it, and you don't have to, but the fact lies there anyway. We've all screwed us, and we all need salvation. And there's not more then one truth, but there are different ways of putting it. Like you could say 'the sky is blue', but you could also say 'the atmosphere looks cerulean'. You might not be able to do that in other languages, but English tends to have 3 or 4 four words for everything, and more for some others, so of course there are different ways of putting the truth. Yes, the translations aren't necessarily always perfect, so someone studying the Bible should compare different Bibles and try and learn some of the original greek and hebrew if possible, but that doesn't mean the Bible's screwed up. Plus, I'm pretty sure the Koran wasn't written in English, so isn't it just as screwy? He didn't create evil. He created the potential for evil. There's a huge difference. He allowed the Koran to be written because of a promise to Ishmael. He didn't send it though. And no, it's not obvious it's off. Otherwise, Christianity have the most followers worldwide, and there wouldn't be people who have studied the Bible more closely then either of us claiming it was true. You can say you think it's off, you can try to provide proof of it, but you can't say it's obvious. That's silly. And you can't just claim my Holy Book was changed and yours wasn't because God wanted it that way. If He's all-powerful, He'd stop the Bible from being changed in the first place. And what makes you think you know God's Will? Because I'm afraid that's kinda what you sound like. You don't know it. God actually talks to people in my church, and me on a regular basis, and I don't claim I know His Will. Does He do that with you? Those quotes show He was providing an example for us as the Last Adam. He lived as a human so He could show us how to live, and He was human, but He was God at the same time. (That's Trinity. There's another topic somewhere around here that has a link to CS Lewis's explanation. You should check it out, cause when I try to explain it, I fail. XD) He did die, and then He was raised up. God wouldn't send Him back for something as silly as 'last good-byes'. That would be no big deal. That's a complete bs interpretation of what happened. It's so outrageous, it made me laugh. Really? Just, really? xd I don't mean to be mean, and I know your sincere, but I really can't believe you believe that. sweatdrop (It's like someone trying to convince me the earth is flat or something... biggrin ) Sin has not existed eternally. Only God has. And yeah, you might want to be a little clearer on the whole Islamic version of sin. All I know is jinns were supposedly involved. But God's Will and Jesus's were the same because they're both God. They agree on everything, so it's not any ability given to Him be God. And those jinns, who we call demons, are what we believe drive the Islamic faith and other religions and their miracles. They do a lot of other bad stuff too, like cause depression, illness, etc. It's weird how similar, but different those beliefs are, neh? After all, satan's the father of lies, so no wonder we'd both think the other faith was being decieved. I know, and I'm not angry too. I'm learning a lot here, though a lot of it is pretty...outrageous to me. I honestly like you, even if it's hard to believe you think those things. Ah well, I guess we can always pray for each other. ^^ I could never find what I've found in Christianity in any other religion though...It's the only truth I'll walk by. Edit:I gotta put this quote down, because it kinda applies, and I love the way Madeline L'Engle says stuff: Quote: What I believe is so magnificent, so glorious, that it is beyond finite comprehension. To believe that the universe was created by a purposeful, benign Creator is one thing. To believe that this Creator took on human vesture, accepted death and mortality, was tempted, betrayed, broken, and all for love of us, defies reason. It is so wild that it terrifies some Christians who try to dogmatize their fear by lashing out at other Christians, because tidy Christianity with all answers given is easier than one which reaches out to the wild wonder of God's love, a love we don't even have to earn.
Yes, He does have all the control. -smiles- Seriously, blood does not need to be spilled for humanity. We will find out where we go based on what we do & believe...-shakes head- It was not up to one person (& especially not their sacrifice) to determine if we can be saved from Hellfire. God has the full ability to send us where He wills. We are not inherently evil though we have the ability to act as such. Actually, we believe we have a good nature. We're easily tempted & swayed though. These are my beliefs & I stand beside them, unswayed. Anyway, moving on...Why would we lose our ability to be in God's presence? First of all, He knows everything & we are all in His presence right now & also, we always are able to repent & be forgiven if we believe in Him & His Oneness. Animals are not the same as a person...You cannot be rid of all your sins because of a sacrifice of any kind. You must ask for forgiveness, fully submit, & humble yourself before your God. & we don't ignore the sacrifice of animal bit...We consider it worship of Him...That's why we have halal meat (which is an animal slaughtered in His name) & we have Eid (a holiday in which we eat sheep [typically] as thanks to Allah that Abraham was able to sacrifice a ram instead of his own son [though he was willing to do anything for Allah]).
We have not all earned Hell. Even though we sin, that does not mean we are initially damned. The concept of Original sin doesn't make sense because He forgave Adam & Eve since they repented, but more importantly, we are responsible for our own deeds. He is the Ever-Merciful. He does not hold grudges, He keeps His promises that He will forgive all those who ask Him to forgive them if they truly believe. He does not need to make a person innocent of the sins of everyone else suffer. He is Almighty & is not cruel & does not put the burden of others onto anyone for He is true to His word.
There are different ways of putting the truth, but there are also ways of changing it to something that sounds similar but is not the same. -shakes head- Most people don't realize that changes that were made since there is no way to know what was the original writing. That's why we believe that the Torah & Bible are the word of God, but humans changed it so much that none of us can discern what is the word & what is human word. No, the Qu'ran wasn't written in English, but that's why it's the best if we learn Arabic (we have to for our prayers to mean the most).
He did create evil. To say He didn't create everything that is not Him is slandering Him. We were created with the potential to do evil, but evil wouldn't exist if He didn't create. That wouldn't make any sense. Nothing could exist without Him.
He allowed the Qu'ran to be written because He decreed that all the people's deserved the word so they could follow Him & He alone. The reason Christians have the most believers worldwide is because they have missionaries. They may do good things, but it's not right to do something for someone & then have the implication that they should follow what you believe. That's like handing someone candy & saying "If you follow this way, you'll be greatly rewarded." That's influencing someone & that leads to compulsion. There are people who have the Qu'ran memorized...which is the closest study there could be. I'm not "claiming" something. There is fact & truth of it. Go look at the progression of the changing! There is proof in that. All these "versions" are based on what people put in & took out. Even the whole concept of Jesus as God was eventually added into Christianity after the Bible was written. It wouldn't make sense if Allah stopped the Bible from being changed though because people were already being led astray. Humans will easily do that because we are created that way. It shows just how much we NEED Him. We are nothing without Him. We have to rely on Him so that we will not be led astray, there is no other way. Things are meant to happen certain ways, that's why He can let it be changed. Only He knows why. I do not know His will. Only He does. So why are you acting like you know it as well? He wouldn't change the Bible, as you said? How would you know? Think about it.
Though I know not what He does, he warns us that there are Jinn that will speak to us as if they are Allah. All I know is that He knows all.
-shakes head- This is where I cannot believe that Christians believe this...God would not be human, EVER. That defeats the whole divinity aspect so much. That makes no sense at all. He is above us all. There is need for Him to live as a human because there were many examples for us such as Moses, Abraham, Noah, & Muhammad (to name a few). Muhammad was the best example though. God does not do humanly things. We may be created in His image, but He is not like us.
Allah promised Jesus that he would die a natural death, so he was raised up to be saved from those who would hurt him. Trying to argue that Jesus died also implies God died which cannot work at all. He cannot be hurt by humans...None on this earth or in the heavens have power to slay Him. He wouldn't have come down to us in any form because He is One. Allah connects to us in other ways. Now I'm not sure where I got the whole Jesus coming back part...I need to look that up so I am knowledgeable about what completely happened. We believe he was raised & that he still is alive, in Heaven & is awaiting the second coming (which is very similar to the Christian view, but not the same in most ways at all.........). & how is any of it outrageous? Thanks for the laughing, that shows true consideration & seriousness in debate. -_- I'm unsure of where I got the returning part, 'cause I was trying to see if there was anything about that in our beliefs, but I'm not seeing any of it. I'll let you know as soon as I can. -smiles- Okay, yes. I meant that sin has been around ever since we were created (as in always for humanity). No, Jinns are not completely involved. They are created from fire, but can also be Muslims (though they have a more sinful nature a lot of the time). Humans & Jinns sin, which is defined as overall causing harm to themselves, others, or basically creation. If one disbelieves, one is harming oneself because one is turning away from Allah & one is also more than likely harming others because humans influence one another & usually act in sinful ways when they do not follow Him. The one who tries to help humans & jinns fall into sin is Iblis (who we call the main Shaytaan [Satan]) who is a jinn who disobeyed Allah & has committed himself to get as many humans into Hell as he can.
Humans can do nothing without Allah's will. Jesus was human. He could not be God at the same time because God is Almighty, Great, not human-like at all. We don't believe that jinns 'cause all these things...there are some that are good as well. They do great things since they were created from fire & given abilities that we were not (why do you think there are magicians & other amazing things?) They have "powers," but much of the time they abuse them.
Satan can do nothing if Allah protects one from him though. It goes either way.
What you believe is just as "outrageous" to me, but it's good to learn about something you don't believe in because you can have even more faith in your belief. I like you as well. You're very good at bringing up various points & I really look for that in people. It's very admirable. & the same goes for me in that I have no faith except that in Allah & what He has shown to be true.
As for your quote...it made me shake my head, but I won't reply because I know what I know & it seems that I cannot change your mind. I realize that some are meant to follow Islam & others are not. It is all Allah's will. To be fair, the same arguments could be used by the opposition. If God is so powerful, why CAN'T He choose to be a mortal for a bit, or show up in mortal form? God can't be hurt, this is true- But God is not the mortal body he inhabits, just as you are not the mortal body you inhabit. God is God. If God inhabits a mortal body, the rules still apply. That, and could it not be argued that the idea of God that Christians have knows that some are not meant for Christianity, and it's all HIS plan for some to go astray into Islam?
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Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 11:58 pm
Saddest Shade of Kitsune xxEternallyBluexx Saddest Shade of Kitsune xxEternallyBluexx Saddest Shade of Kitsune I do not believe he "started" anything at all. Allah chooses who He wishes to be His prophets, therefore opinion doesn't matter either way. & there is no "it can apply here, but not there" in Islam because it goes for all of time. We are to follow what God prescribed for us (I hope you know Allah = the One & Only God-- that's the english translation so your God & my God are the same since there is only ONE GOD. Hope that clears up anything). There is complete evidence that the Bible & Torah are changed. Look at all the versions! There are children's bible's! & do you know what some of them do? They put it into different language (as in, more "modern" terms) & say things like "God hates gays." (I've actually read one that said exactly that, tell me that's not changing the word of God & I will know there's some incompetency here [not saying you will, but seriously >> <<]) I've seen so many versions, some with things left out & other things with parts added. Some people have rephrased some versus in their own words as well (-cough- King James version -cough-). There is no way to be able to tell what was & what wasn't originally there so therefore there was a complete need for the Qur'an otherwise there would be no TRUE message for people to follow because there are so many skewed messages out there. Yeah, Allah sent prophets to correct what was being done wrong & that's why he sent Muhammad to finally finish everything so we could follow the path that we are supposed to without having to wonder what way was the "right way" (that is debated often since there are sects & such things [sadly there are splits in Islam, but I don't follow any of them since it's not supposed to be that way]). & Jesus wasn't sent to "save" people. He was a messenger. The only one who can save anyone is GOD & Jesus was human. The whole God reincarnated as a human to share our struggles idea is not even valid since He already understands them completely & has no need to live here to forgive us for our sins. He is perfect & wouldn't need to become imperfect to help us. That's a conflicting view that has no sense nor logic nor anything to support it at all. Sorry, but seriously, think about it. In Islam, we HAVE to have proofs because Allah expects us to use our brains as well as our hearts in our faith. I'll reply to the other post tomorrow. He does choose, but He that doesn't mean there aren't false prophets, or people who pretend to have a revelation. When that's the case, it is man starting something and not God's Will. I think that's how it is with Muhammed, so it was just him starting something and not of God at all. (And yeah, I knew about the Allah translates as God thing, but I'm not sure I agree. ><) Yeah, there's a lot of versions, so...? Most of them say pretty much the same thing, including the children's Bible's. Some just have special notes, or they're just the NT, or they have a dictionary. The Message, which is supposed to be the modern day interpretation, even admits it may not be entirely right and says it's better used as a tool for understanding a better version of the Bible. And when a Bible is completely off, most Christians won't use it. As for parts being added, and taken off, I haven't seen that (except for maybe a group like the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses). The Bible's I've seen all have Genesis through Revelations. Nothing left out, and nothing taken away. Plus, most of the versions were written after Muhammed put out his interpretion, so that's not a great argument. >< Besides, do you really believe that God would allow His Word to become screwed up, and then send a single guy to fix it? I think He'd make a bigger deal out of it. And the Bible and the Quran don't agree for the most part. If the Quran is supposed to be a correction of the Bible, then why is it so off? Then why doesn't Jesus call Himself a 'messenger'? What you're saying completely conflicts with what Jesus said. Quote: I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic -- on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg -- or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. – Mere Christianity, pages 40-41. CS Lewis had it right. He needed to be human so He could pay the price for our sins, which was death. His blood provides us the way back to God. It couldn't be anyone else, it had to be God's Son because He was the only one perfect enough (God used to demand flawless animal sacrifices. See the connection?) Jesus needed to become man to fix what the first Adam screwed up, and give us an example to live by. God loves us enough He didn't just give us instructions, He gave us an example-one who came to died for us because God loves us dearly and wanted to provide a way back. He couldn't just say it was fine, there was a price that had to be paid, and that's what Jesus did for us. http://www.indyopc.org/whyman.htmlAs well as all that stuff up there, there's other proofs that Jesus is the Son and far more important then just being a messenger, like the stories in which He randomly reveals Himself to someone who doesn't know Him (there was one about an Islamic fundamentalist who was going around killing Christians until he opened up the Bible and realized the truth, and there's plenty of other stories like that). There's also stories about people dying and there being a Presence, which they later realize is Jesus. In Return from Tomorrow, the man automatically knows it's the Son of God, and the moment he starts to consider Jesus is an angel or not that important, he realizes he's wrong. How do you explain all that?
“Why do you call me good: No one is good but One, that is, God.” (Matthew 9:17, Mark 10-18, and Luke 18:19)
“My Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28 )
“I do nothing of myself, but as the Father taught me, I speak these things.” (John 8:28 )
“Most assuredly, I say to you, the son can do nothing of himself …” (John 5:19)
“But I know Him, for I am from Him, and He sent me.” (John 7:29)
“He who rejects me rejects Him who sent me.” (Luke 10:16)
“But now I go away to Him who sent me …” (John 16:5)
“Jesus answered them and said, ‘My doctrine is not mine, but His who sent me.’” (John 7:16)
“For I have not spoken on my own authority; but the Father who sent me gave me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.” (John 12:49)
“The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear O Israel, The Lord our God, the Lord is one.” (Mark 12:29)
“But of that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Mark 13:32)
“‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’” (Luke 4:8 )
“My food is to do the will of Him who sent me …” (John 4:34)
“I can of myself do nothing … I do not seek my own will but the will of the Father who sent me.” (John 5:30)
“For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him who sent me.” (John 6:38 )
“My doctrine is not mine, but His who sent me.” (John 7:16)
“I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God.” (John 20:17)
These all show that Jesus is HUMAN & could do nothing unless Allah wills it. He was gifted because Allah allowed him to be as such. & Jesus didn't die. He was raised up before he was killed, by the mercy of Allah & one who looked like him was put in his place. Allah can do anything. The whole, seeing Jesus rise again is off because Allah sent him down to tell those he was close to that he was okay & that he had been raised up before death. Not raised from the dead, just allowed to say some last good byes. & Adam's sin was forgiven right away. There was always sin, no original sin. The whole situation with Iblis (he is a Satan, it is not a name, but is to describe those who oppose God) shows that, for He did not bow down to man when Allah told him to do so. He sinned. (I know you probably don't know what I'm talking about with the Satan part since Christianity & Islam differ greatly there.) Anyway, the reason Jesus could perform miracles is NOT because he was God. It was because he was given the ability by Allah. He could not do it unless it was Allah's will as the above verses denote. To explain all those things, you do know that there are beings that can lead us to believe wrongly, right? We call them Jinns (Iblis is the Jinn that is condemned to Hell though & who tries to fool us most of all). They do things to make people believe in the false divinity of Jesus when he was only a human. He leads us astray & takes advantage of people. It happens often. That explains everything. Hm...still don't have time to reply to the other post. Way too much going on here. All I can say is that you & I are of different faiths & that is how it is. Allah will judge us fairly on the Day of Judgment. I feel no anger against you though you don't share my beliefs. That doesn't change what I know to be true.True, but the same holds true for you. You can claim Muhammed was a prophet as much as you like, and if he wasn't, it doesn't make it true. It's a double-edged sword, but a good one, because God is truly in control. ^^ Blood does need to be spilled, because when we sin, we lose our ability to go into God's Presence. The blood covers us. That's the reason for the sacrifices originally, and why God made Adam Eve clothes by killing an innocent animal-it's an important sacrifice that pays for sin. Just because Islam ignores it, doesn't mean it wasn't necessary. And yes, God can take the burden of our sins from us because we've all earned Hell, and He doesn't want to see us go there. You may not want to believe it, and you don't have to, but the fact lies there anyway. We've all screwed us, and we all need salvation. And there's not more then one truth, but there are different ways of putting it. Like you could say 'the sky is blue', but you could also say 'the atmosphere looks cerulean'. You might not be able to do that in other languages, but English tends to have 3 or 4 four words for everything, and more for some others, so of course there are different ways of putting the truth. Yes, the translations aren't necessarily always perfect, so someone studying the Bible should compare different Bibles and try and learn some of the original greek and hebrew if possible, but that doesn't mean the Bible's screwed up. Plus, I'm pretty sure the Koran wasn't written in English, so isn't it just as screwy? He didn't create evil. He created the potential for evil. There's a huge difference. He allowed the Koran to be written because of a promise to Ishmael. He didn't send it though. And no, it's not obvious it's off. Otherwise, Christianity have the most followers worldwide, and there wouldn't be people who have studied the Bible more closely then either of us claiming it was true. You can say you think it's off, you can try to provide proof of it, but you can't say it's obvious. That's silly. And you can't just claim my Holy Book was changed and yours wasn't because God wanted it that way. If He's all-powerful, He'd stop the Bible from being changed in the first place. And what makes you think you know God's Will? Because I'm afraid that's kinda what you sound like. You don't know it. God actually talks to people in my church, and me on a regular basis, and I don't claim I know His Will. Does He do that with you? Those quotes show He was providing an example for us as the Last Adam. He lived as a human so He could show us how to live, and He was human, but He was God at the same time. (That's Trinity. There's another topic somewhere around here that has a link to CS Lewis's explanation. You should check it out, cause when I try to explain it, I fail. XD) He did die, and then He was raised up. God wouldn't send Him back for something as silly as 'last good-byes'. That would be no big deal. That's a complete bs interpretation of what happened. It's so outrageous, it made me laugh. Really? Just, really? xd I don't mean to be mean, and I know your sincere, but I really can't believe you believe that. sweatdrop (It's like someone trying to convince me the earth is flat or something... biggrin ) Sin has not existed eternally. Only God has. And yeah, you might want to be a little clearer on the whole Islamic version of sin. All I know is jinns were supposedly involved. But God's Will and Jesus's were the same because they're both God. They agree on everything, so it's not any ability given to Him be God. And those jinns, who we call demons, are what we believe drive the Islamic faith and other religions and their miracles. They do a lot of other bad stuff too, like cause depression, illness, etc. It's weird how similar, but different those beliefs are, neh? After all, satan's the father of lies, so no wonder we'd both think the other faith was being decieved. I know, and I'm not angry too. I'm learning a lot here, though a lot of it is pretty...outrageous to me. I honestly like you, even if it's hard to believe you think those things. Ah well, I guess we can always pray for each other. ^^ I could never find what I've found in Christianity in any other religion though...It's the only truth I'll walk by. Edit:I gotta put this quote down, because it kinda applies, and I love the way Madeline L'Engle says stuff: Quote: What I believe is so magnificent, so glorious, that it is beyond finite comprehension. To believe that the universe was created by a purposeful, benign Creator is one thing. To believe that this Creator took on human vesture, accepted death and mortality, was tempted, betrayed, broken, and all for love of us, defies reason. It is so wild that it terrifies some Christians who try to dogmatize their fear by lashing out at other Christians, because tidy Christianity with all answers given is easier than one which reaches out to the wild wonder of God's love, a love we don't even have to earn.
Yes, He does have all the control. -smiles- Seriously, blood does not need to be spilled for humanity. We will find out where we go based on what we do & believe...-shakes head- It was not up to one person (& especially not their sacrifice) to determine if we can be saved from Hellfire. God has the full ability to send us where He wills. We are not inherently evil though we have the ability to act as such. Actually, we believe we have a good nature. We're easily tempted & swayed though. These are my beliefs & I stand beside them, unswayed. Anyway, moving on...Why would we lose our ability to be in God's presence? First of all, He knows everything & we are all in His presence right now & also, we always are able to repent & be forgiven if we believe in Him & His Oneness. Animals are not the same as a person...You cannot be rid of all your sins because of a sacrifice of any kind. You must ask for forgiveness, fully submit, & humble yourself before your God. & we don't ignore the sacrifice of animal bit...We consider it worship of Him...That's why we have halal meat (which is an animal slaughtered in His name) & we have Eid (a holiday in which we eat sheep [typically] as thanks to Allah that Abraham was able to sacrifice a ram instead of his own son [though he was willing to do anything for Allah]).
We have not all earned Hell. Even though we sin, that does not mean we are initially damned. The concept of Original sin doesn't make sense because He forgave Adam & Eve since they repented, but more importantly, we are responsible for our own deeds. He is the Ever-Merciful. He does not hold grudges, He keeps His promises that He will forgive all those who ask Him to forgive them if they truly believe. He does not need to make a person innocent of the sins of everyone else suffer. He is Almighty & is not cruel & does not put the burden of others onto anyone for He is true to His word.
There are different ways of putting the truth, but there are also ways of changing it to something that sounds similar but is not the same. -shakes head- Most people don't realize that changes that were made since there is no way to know what was the original writing. That's why we believe that the Torah & Bible are the word of God, but humans changed it so much that none of us can discern what is the word & what is human word. No, the Qu'ran wasn't written in English, but that's why it's the best if we learn Arabic (we have to for our prayers to mean the most).
He did create evil. To say He didn't create everything that is not Him is slandering Him. We were created with the potential to do evil, but evil wouldn't exist if He didn't create. That wouldn't make any sense. Nothing could exist without Him.
He allowed the Qu'ran to be written because He decreed that all the people's deserved the word so they could follow Him & He alone. The reason Christians have the most believers worldwide is because they have missionaries. They may do good things, but it's not right to do something for someone & then have the implication that they should follow what you believe. That's like handing someone candy & saying "If you follow this way, you'll be greatly rewarded." That's influencing someone & that leads to compulsion. There are people who have the Qu'ran memorized...which is the closest study there could be. I'm not "claiming" something. There is fact & truth of it. Go look at the progression of the changing! There is proof in that. All these "versions" are based on what people put in & took out. Even the whole concept of Jesus as God was eventually added into Christianity after the Bible was written. It wouldn't make sense if Allah stopped the Bible from being changed though because people were already being led astray. Humans will easily do that because we are created that way. It shows just how much we NEED Him. We are nothing without Him. We have to rely on Him so that we will not be led astray, there is no other way. Things are meant to happen certain ways, that's why He can let it be changed. Only He knows why. I do not know His will. Only He does. So why are you acting like you know it as well? He wouldn't change the Bible, as you said? How would you know? Think about it.
Though I know not what He does, he warns us that there are Jinn that will speak to us as if they are Allah. All I know is that He knows all.
-shakes head- This is where I cannot believe that Christians believe this...God would not be human, EVER. That defeats the whole divinity aspect so much. That makes no sense at all. He is above us all. There is need for Him to live as a human because there were many examples for us such as Moses, Abraham, Noah, & Muhammad (to name a few). Muhammad was the best example though. God does not do humanly things. We may be created in His image, but He is not like us.
Allah promised Jesus that he would die a natural death, so he was raised up to be saved from those who would hurt him. Trying to argue that Jesus died also implies God died which cannot work at all. He cannot be hurt by humans...None on this earth or in the heavens have power to slay Him. He wouldn't have come down to us in any form because He is One. Allah connects to us in other ways. Now I'm not sure where I got the whole Jesus coming back part...I need to look that up so I am knowledgeable about what completely happened. We believe he was raised & that he still is alive, in Heaven & is awaiting the second coming (which is very similar to the Christian view, but not the same in most ways at all.........). & how is any of it outrageous? Thanks for the laughing, that shows true consideration & seriousness in debate. -_- I'm unsure of where I got the returning part, 'cause I was trying to see if there was anything about that in our beliefs, but I'm not seeing any of it. I'll let you know as soon as I can. -smiles- Okay, yes. I meant that sin has been around ever since we were created (as in always for humanity). No, Jinns are not completely involved. They are created from fire, but can also be Muslims (though they have a more sinful nature a lot of the time). Humans & Jinns sin, which is defined as overall causing harm to themselves, others, or basically creation. If one disbelieves, one is harming oneself because one is turning away from Allah & one is also more than likely harming others because humans influence one another & usually act in sinful ways when they do not follow Him. The one who tries to help humans & jinns fall into sin is Iblis (who we call the main Shaytaan [Satan]) who is a jinn who disobeyed Allah & has committed himself to get as many humans into Hell as he can.
Humans can do nothing without Allah's will. Jesus was human. He could not be God at the same time because God is Almighty, Great, not human-like at all. We don't believe that jinns 'cause all these things...there are some that are good as well. They do great things since they were created from fire & given abilities that we were not (why do you think there are magicians & other amazing things?) They have "powers," but much of the time they abuse them.
Satan can do nothing if Allah protects one from him though. It goes either way.
What you believe is just as "outrageous" to me, but it's good to learn about something you don't believe in because you can have even more faith in your belief. I like you as well. You're very good at bringing up various points & I really look for that in people. It's very admirable. & the same goes for me in that I have no faith except that in Allah & what He has shown to be true.
As for your quote...it made me shake my head, but I won't reply because I know what I know & it seems that I cannot change your mind. I realize that some are meant to follow Islam & others are not. It is all Allah's will. Sorry it took me awhile too; I lost an reply attempt and the fact this was going to take me about two hours to reply to put me off for a bit....Anyways... 1) Blood does have to be spilled because sin acts as a barrier between us and God. He gives us free will (right?) so to a certain degree He doesn't intervene with our choices, including those sinful ones that seperate us from Him. That's what sin does-through our own wrongdoing, no matter how small, we form a barrier between us and Him, okay? Now because that was made through our choice, and He gives us free choice, He can't just force the barrier down; besides that, from our own actions we have tainted ourselves, so to be in His Presence would destroy us as light destroys darkness. So He sent His Son to die for us, so that He could cover us with His blood, the barrier could be destroyed and we could be His once more. It is unearned grace and mercy, but that's what makes God so great-that He would do something like that for us. ^^ If you don't agree, do you at least see how that makes sense? The belief we have good nature doesn't differ-we have Original Glory because we were made in His Image. We just have Original Sin too, or else we wouldn't be able to do evil, because evil doesn't spring from good. The repentence is our part, but the sacrifice is important. Otherwise the problem hasn't been fixed, and whatever mercy you've recieved is probrably an illusiuon. We believe in that complete submission, but our solution (please take no offense) is more complete then yours. You're ignoring the original purpose of the sacrifice. Did you notice Abraham said 'lamb', and got a ram? My pastor did a sermon on how that was foreshadowing of the Lamb, Jesus. ^^ And why do you celebrate that? Issac's not your ancestor, I think. Original Sin does make sense. How do you explain the fact every man sins even when most people desire for good without it? It's not Him 'holding a grudge' XD He's just being just, because that's His nature. He does put the burden on another (especiallu considering that other is part of Himself) because He wants us back, and this was the way. He does forgive, and He is merciful, but a price had to be paid. He still send those forgiven into dangerous places sometimes, because He loves everyone. We actually heard today from a Chinese pastor who was helping to build the church in China. He was thrown into prison (and he's this really sweet guy), and they tell him not to witniss, so he tells Jesus 'I'm not going to say anything unless people ask'. Well the first thing that happens is the boss man asks him 'What are you in for?' and then makes him tell everybody else! Three people converted that day, and I think more converted later. The point (though there's more to the story and it's a really awesome testimony. ^^ I'll post the link to my church where you can hear it, if you want to hear it) is that God uses good people in tough situations sometimes. He does unexpected things. He uses the weak against the strong, and is not bound by man's perception of Him. Isn't that glorious? Well, it's best if you learn the Bible in Greek and Hebrew, so what's the difference? And besides, you still have presented no proof of these changes. I'd like to see some. So you think God, who completely good, created evil? How does evil spring from good, praytell? Actually, that's why the Bible was written. It could have no other purpose. The Koran, on the other hand, could've easily been written for money, or respect, or any of those other things Muhammed probrably got from it. XD And you guys don't have missionaries? XD again, because there's plenty of Christian non-profit organizations, or Christian missionaries who don't say why they serve unless asked. Like the pastor I mentioned, or this organization in Seattle that feeds the homeless and washes the feet. They aren't doing it to convince anyone, they're just serving out of love, which is the way Christianity should be. Actually, if anything I think Muslims force people to follow them more. A recent example is in Africa, the Muslims won't let the Christians drink from their wells unless they convert. My church actually helped build a cistern there, that everyone could drink from. Now who's doing the compelling? Edit: Actually, since I wrote this I've seen more evidence of this. I'm reading a modern-day Saudi Arabian princesses story, and the emphasis, when it comes to helping the needy, is about helping Islamic needy. I've seen this evidenced in other Islamic accounts I've read too. I can't judge the Christian ones very well, because I'm biased, but it seems to me you can hardly state that when the people of your religion seem to do that more then Christians do, at least in the Middle East. There are people who have the Bible memorized. I see no proof, and you are making claims. So am I. Don't be ashamed of it. Quote: claim 3. To state to be true, especially when open to question; assert or maintain Have you actually read all the different versions? Can you show me verses, chapters, books that have been added or take away? If you can't, can you stop claiming they're false, because you don't have any proof? It would make sense for God to take an interest in His Holy Book, and He does. I mean, He's not going to let His Word become corrupt just because people are. I know because it's His Word. It's sacred. He's keep it uncorrupted. I mean, even Jesus didn't do away with the Torah, while Muslims have essentially done away with everything they didn't agree with, and excused it with 'the bible is corrupt anyway'. I'm sorry, but I hate that. Yes we do have to bow to Him, and we NEED Him, you aren't wrong on any of that, but you're so wrong concerning the Bible. I think your jinn are speaking to you Muslims, not the other way around. He isn't like us, but He sent His Son down because He loved us that much. I can't believe you don't see how great that is-that God would die for you/send His Son for you. It was His choice, He did it, and He coucld do it because nothing's impossible for Him. It's not that inconcievable, it's just wonderfully beyond us, because God doesn't always do what we expect. God promised Jesus what? Says who? Where does it say God promised Jesus He would die a natural death. Jesus dies, beat death, and came back. God the Father was still in charge though. And He let people slay and hurt Him. He could've called up angels and made them leave Him alone, or killed the entire human race, but He suffered death on the cross because it was necessary. He was raised up and is still alive in Heaven...after dying on the cross for our sins. ^^ Sorry, I'm immature. XD I also have seen and heard so many things about Jesus, I've heard testimonies of non-Christian suddenly coming to know Him often (including a Muslim Christian killer who read the Bible and found Christianity to be far more true then Islam), and I have very little contact with serious Muslims, so keeping a straight face can be hard. I mostly laughed at the sheer irony of it, that we're coming from such simlar perspectives, and yet are on opposite sides of a coin-one of us has to be wrong. It's strange. Jinns are created from fire? That doesn't make much sense. Demons are fallen angels who have tried to escape His Will (fail on their part). I don't think it has anything to do with fire... Sounds like what I believe, except for the names, and up until the sentence that starts with Humans can. He gave us freedo of choice, because He didn't want to force us to love Him. That created the potential for sin. And so we had the Fall, and lost Him, and everything that happened with Israel was an attempt to reach man again. Finally He sent His Son and the rest I've probrably said before... Actually, to say He's not human-like at all would be wrong. We're created in His Image after all... So basically angels and demons and supernatural powers, with some twists. Interesting. Satan can't do anything without God's permission period. biggrin I'm not out to change your mind, that's God's job. I'm glad you're learning from this, and maybe at a later date you'll meet Jesus and recall anything the Holy Spirit has been able to show you through me. I hope so, but I'm fallible so I know I might not be able to do much in that regard. Anyways, the true God bless you, until the next time I have two hours... (And I'm sorry you didn't like the quote. Madeline L'Engle and CS Lewis are both amazing thinkers, and they explain thing better then I do. I think you should read them [especially Mere Christianity] if you have a chance. ^^) Edit: This post has gotten really long, so feel free to only address certain points if you're getting as annoyed by the length as I am.
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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:57 am
If it's so hard, get an Al-Quran, a Bible, an Ustaz and a Priest. Let them debate. biggrin
I've read somewhere that one Ustaz ask a few questions that the Priest couldn't answer.
biggrin
Can't remember his name. Darn it.
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:20 pm
Samantha_Grey miracles don't create faith, they only strengthen faith that already exists in someone.
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:42 am
fallen_vampire_immortal I dont get it.There are so many miracles of Allah and still the disbeleivers dont come to our religon.The Sand fountain, the girl who cried sharp crystals, the boy who had Allah written on his ear, he mosques who stood after the tsunamis and earthquakes.etc. No offence to disbeleivers but my Islamiat sir told me the Christians make their own religon up.Soon they might be starting to worship Elisha. I am not going to offend anyones religon because it is a bad thing to do so.It might bring me a few steps closer to Hell (Jahannum). ..... o_O; um.... how many of us have actually seen proof of some of these miracles? i'm loath to believe some of them, considering i havn't seen them, nor do they sound credible. besides which, different prophets from different religions around the world claim miracles, some incredible but seen, some unseen and not easy to believe, some which can be explained away without difficulty, and the results are always the same. some people join the religion, others don't. it realy isn't that strange a concept to think that just because your religion has a bunch of "miracles" that it doesn't mean everyone will come rushing to your religion. i know your religion makes sense to YOU, but it won't to everyone, or even any majority of the world. besides, just because someone believes the same stuff as a religion doesn't mean they believe that they need teh religion. there could be hundreds, thousands, maybe more, people who believe in the Quran and the Prophet Muhammed, and who worship Allah and believe Jesus to be a Prophet but not any incarnation of Allah, and who still don't identify as Muslim in the sense of the religion. just that it's their Faith, without going to Mosques or praying at certain set times according to schedual or in certain ways. ya know? what i'm saying is, don't be so confused by it. it's not as illogical as you make it out to be. but by the way, you have just offended the christian religion. to say that it is just made up, and that they don't have any credibility.... that's blatantly rude, no matter whether you put "no offense" attache dto it or not, it's still offensive. confused i'm neither christian, nor any religion for that matter, though i am Spiritual. but i know that christianity has as much credibility and actual knowledge as Islam does. it's no better or worse or more right or wrong than any other religion. comparing religions like that is rediculous, biased, and rude. self-righteousness gets people nowhere. i know you didn't mean to be, and i'm not upset at you or anything. just figured it needed to be said, because saying and doing and thinking are all sepperate things that should all come together in balance. ya know?
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:53 am
mazuac Samantha_Grey miracles don't create faith, they only strengthen faith that already exists in someone. i wouldn't say that.... first of all, Muhammed was illiterate. but just cause the Scriptures are so similar doesn't mean that one lied and the other told the truth. it doesn't mean that someone "warped" anything. it just means that different people interpreted the History and the Message in different ways. quite frankly, i see alot of Jesus' "i am the Son of God" quotes as Messages that he is an example of how to live according to God's Will, and that everyone is a Son or Daughter of God if we Follow God. it was never a litteral statement of him being the only person like himself that could ever be. it was saying, "hey! be like me!" get it? smile in all honesty, what Jesus was saying was never to make a religion based on worshipping him. xp catholicism in particular is a bastardization of what Christianity was supposed to be, and even Orthodox Christianity has it's mistakes. but all these other branches are just blatantly hypocritical of Jesus' teachings. confused
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Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:23 am
Plumsicle Personally, and please don't take offense to this statement, as far as my knowledge extends, as a woman, I could never submit myself to Islam. It appears to be a VERY male driven faith that not only doesn't see women as equal partners, it almost condems women.and I am a very liberally minded woman. I myself am a Unitarian Universalist, and don't believe in grand miracles of faith, but rather small miracles of the human spirit. Such as friendship, hope, love, and so on. However, I am fascinated with theology, and have never heard of those miracles of Islam. If you find the time, I would greatly appreciate a quick overview of you take on them. ^^
Islam wanted their men to be the leader, protector, friend and partner for a woman.
Mutual respect. Unfortunately, egos of men are very high and a woman's-well, some could be equally annoyingly high (including myself, regretfully-but, hey, glad that's all in the past-I think)
There's this thing I found amongst my reading, which I found very beautiful. It's translated to English so it might not sound as beautiful as it originally was.
"Eve was not created from Adam's head so she could step on him, nor his feet for her to be stepped upon but from his ribs to be protected, to be loved and to be his partner."
In Islamic history, women played crucial parts as well as men.
If you'd like me to elaborate, do send me a PM.
This post's getting too long... Ahahaha...As for your question, one word; Hidayah.
It's not ours to bestow but Allah SWT.
One can even study the Quran or the religion for a hundred years and still not convinced yet one only need to look around for a second to be convinced.
Reminds me of a song by Maher Zain; Open Your Eyes.
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