|
|
| Who did cloud like |
| Tifa |
|
47% |
[ 118 ] |
| Aries |
|
50% |
[ 125 ] |
| Yuffie |
|
2% |
[ 6 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 249 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:56 pm
soadshuyin So this one girls opinion on how the game went through is supposed to represent all of Japans view on the game? No, doesnt work like that. Gotta have multiple views from a controlled group in order to have it even mean anything. One persons view cannot represent an entirety, even if they say it all pretty and try and use a different version of the game in their defense.
if you read it all ^^
people who have both lived in japan and have be flourished in the japanese culture and enviornment
and of course not all Japanese people will agree but it is more of a overall judgement and outlook
and how the FFVII loves were introduced
if you want I can get plenty of interviews with different japanese people if that'll make you feel better
but from the way that FFVII was presented many people agree
and also as I mentioned there is no mention of a love triangle in the japanese game
and I think the root of all this love triangle stuff really is cultural differences as Naru in the first interview says
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:05 pm
.[.pink.spider.]. soadshuyin So this one girls opinion on how the game went through is supposed to represent all of Japans view on the game? No, doesnt work like that. Gotta have multiple views from a controlled group in order to have it even mean anything. One persons view cannot represent an entirety, even if they say it all pretty and try and use a different version of the game in their defense.
if you read it all ^^
people who have both lived in japan and have be flourished in the japanese culture and enviornment
and of course not all Japanese people will agree but it is more of a overall judgement and outlook
and how the FFVII loves were introduced
if you want I can get plenty of interviews with different japanese people if that'll make you feel better
but from the way that FFVII was presented many people agree
and also as I mentioned there is no mention of a love triangle in the japanese game
and I think the root of all this love triangle stuff really is cultural differences as Naru in the first interview saysIts more one person answering anothers questions. And it cant be an overall judgement with only two people. Thatd be like me saying hockey is the best sport in the world because me and my friends say so.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:19 pm
soadshuyin .[.pink.spider.]. soadshuyin So this one girls opinion on how the game went through is supposed to represent all of Japans view on the game? No, doesnt work like that. Gotta have multiple views from a controlled group in order to have it even mean anything. One persons view cannot represent an entirety, even if they say it all pretty and try and use a different version of the game in their defense.
if you read it all ^^
people who have both lived in japan and have be flourished in the japanese culture and enviornment
and of course not all Japanese people will agree but it is more of a overall judgement and outlook
and how the FFVII loves were introduced
if you want I can get plenty of interviews with different japanese people if that'll make you feel better
but from the way that FFVII was presented many people agree
and also as I mentioned there is no mention of a love triangle in the japanese game
and I think the root of all this love triangle stuff really is cultural differences as Naru in the first interview saysIts more one person answering anothers questions. And it cant be an overall judgement with only two people. Thatd be like me saying hockey is the best sport in the world because me and my friends say so.
Naru, a girl who grew up in Japan
and
Shadow Spirit is a nikkei, or Japanese descendant, who has learned the culture of Japan from family members who were born and raised in Japan. Much of his education has been rooted in their cultural view. He is adept with the Japanese language, has played the Japanese version of FFVII, and visits Japanese forums
well as I was reading other interviws Naru usually refers to her friends and those who like FFVII
she even said that some of her friends like tifa
but the majority of Japan is more cloudxaerith
because of how FFVII was presented
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:35 pm
.[.pink.spider.]. soadshuyin .[.pink.spider.]. soadshuyin So this one girls opinion on how the game went through is supposed to represent all of Japans view on the game? No, doesnt work like that. Gotta have multiple views from a controlled group in order to have it even mean anything. One persons view cannot represent an entirety, even if they say it all pretty and try and use a different version of the game in their defense.
if you read it all ^^
people who have both lived in japan and have be flourished in the japanese culture and enviornment
and of course not all Japanese people will agree but it is more of a overall judgement and outlook
and how the FFVII loves were introduced
if you want I can get plenty of interviews with different japanese people if that'll make you feel better
but from the way that FFVII was presented many people agree
and also as I mentioned there is no mention of a love triangle in the japanese game
and I think the root of all this love triangle stuff really is cultural differences as Naru in the first interview saysIts more one person answering anothers questions. And it cant be an overall judgement with only two people. Thatd be like me saying hockey is the best sport in the world because me and my friends say so.
Naru, a girl who grew up in Japan
and
Shadow Spirit is a nikkei, or Japanese descendant, who has learned the culture of Japan from family members who were born and raised in Japan. Much of his education has been rooted in their cultural view. He is adept with the Japanese language, has played the Japanese version of FFVII, and visits Japanese forums
well as I was reading other interviws Naru usually refers to her friends and those who like FFVII
she even said that some of her friends like tifa
but the majority of Japan is more cloudxaerith
because of how FFVII was presentedSorry, skipped over the paragraph stating who he was. But still, thats just how they perceive the game. It only represents their views. Him or her saying that most of Japan believes that isnt plausible, though possible.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:01 pm
SefieGainsborough RanmaxHikaru That was the main point of her being there. To say nothing of her saving the planet, encouraging the other characters, giving them additional motivation for killing Sephiroth, being the last ancient, REPRESENTING THE GAME'S THEME, etc I said it was the main reason not the only reason. SefieGainsborough RanmaxHikaru Yeah it was Aeris's love for Cloud that could never be DUHH. I don't think you understand the meaning of that sentence, I'll come back to that later when I have more time. What’s to not to understand it said “A love that could never be.” With the word Love by Aeris head. Meaning that it was Aeris’s love for Cloud that could never be because she died. SefieGainsborough RanmaxHikaru Yeah models of Aeris's death seen gee that’s so romantic. I don't see a stupid model of Cloud putting Aeris in the water as proof of being cannon. Let's keep this civil. I wasn't talking about the ceramic models(which were created as a series of "Pivitol scenes", and Aeris' death was most certainly one of the most important and memorable). I was talking about the Japanese commercials which show the process of creating their renders for the game. From the frame and on through the fleshing out. Cloud and Aeris are used, no Tifa there. That doesn’t mean much because Cloud and Tifa are right next to each other in Nomura’s AC characters sketches. Not to mention that on page 16 it says that they went over many details of Tifa’s character because they didn’t seem to balance with Clouds character meaning that tey wanted their characters to coinside with eachother. SefieGainsborough Cloud and Aeris are also the first two characters you see both in the game itself and in the game manual (They have their own page, you have to TURN the page to see Tifa.) Well this obvious. Cloud and Aeris are first because Cloud is the main character and Aeris is the ultimate good. They were listed by importance to the story line. Tifa was most important to Cloud’s development during the game and not that important to the overall story line. SefieGainsborough Let's draw some parallels: FF8- You see Rinoa being all pretty and mysterious in the flower field, then are shown Squall. FF9- You see Garnet and her mother on the ship, then Garnet herself in the castle, then Zidane on the airship. FF10 didn't have an actual FMV opening, but the cut scene that we are shown focuses on Tidus and Yuna. First of all SE had officially stated in 97 that FF7 was suppose to break the molds and trends of all the other FF games meaning that comparing FF7 to other FF games is like comparing apples and oranges. However since you and pink insist on making comparisons here are things that you two seem to over look. Tifa, Rinoa, Garnet, and Yuna all seem to acted and look strikingly similar to each other and they all have the same importance when it comes to the development of the main character. Also in all those other FF games the main couple ends up being together in the end. If Cloud and Aeris were suppose to be the main couple then they would have been together in the end not Cloud and Tifa. Again these are just thing’s I have noticed but in truth even though there are cretin trends in different games there are no two FF games that are alike. That’s like saying this thing from game A is just like the thing from game B so it must be cannon. That to me is totally wrong. SefieGainsborough RanmaxHikaru First of all Cloud never felt guilt over his mothers death so of cores he's not in Nibelhiem, second don't be ridicules Cloud felt just as guilty over Zack as he did Aeris but you can't expect the guy to live on a cliff with no shelter or anything. Come on be realistic. He...felt no guilt over his mother's death? You're saying that Cloud, emo extrordanaire, felt NO remorse over his mother's death? That he just brushed her off? And if he felt guilty about Aeris' death WHY would he go stay in her church? Which would remind him of her death and his sin? It couldn't have been ONLY guilt. First of all Cloud felt bad about his mother’s death not guilty and Second he was in Aeris’s church because that was his way of trying to ask Aeris for forgiveness but he never got to talk with her until he went to the city of the ancents. SefieGainsborough RanmaxHikaru Yes it dose. Cloud says "I want to be forgiven." when he first sees Aeris. That’s when you finally realize why he has been staying at her church all that time. Perhaps that's when YOU realize it. Let's also examine the fact that his guilt over Aeris' death is the most pressing one we see. And keep in mind the scene afterwards: "Can sins ever be forgiven?" Vincent: I don't know, never tried *Flash back to the flower field scene* "Forgiven by who?" Then Cloud seems stronger, more determined, and heads off to do what he knows he must. Now, what is Vincent's story? He let the woman he loved face the worst? That's his SIN. They're drawing PARALLELS. First of all it wasn’t Cloud’s talk with Aeris that made him stronger it was only after his talk with Vincent that he finally seemed determined to do anything. Second the only parallels that Cloud and Vincent had was that they both lost people that they cared about. Just because Cloud cared about Aeris’s death doesn’t mean he was in love with her. SefieGainsborough RanmaxHikaru Cloud and Tifa were getting along. The last thing he did before he left was bring Denzel home to her and he even gave her a smile. Everything was going good until he let his guilt trip get the better of him. Yeah, that's why Cloud wasn't telling Tifa anything, that's why all the scenes between them are awkward, blah blah blah. And yes, he brought Denzel to her. Who he believed Aeris had brought to HIM. Tifa argues and says that Aeris brought him to THEM, but we don't hear Cloud agreeing with her. So...Cloud's feeling guilty about Aeris' death, he smiles at Tifa and runs off to live in Aeris' church, without telling the woman he loves where he's going or not to worry? AND he leaves her alone with no mean of income AND with two children? One of which is deathly sick? Doesn't strike me as very loving. Scratch the not hearing Cloud's argument: He just smiles at Tifa, and leaves. He gave up. He couldn't argue with her, he gave up, and left. To AERIS' church. First of all please don’t make things up and blow events out of proportion. Tifa and Cloud were not arguing with each other. Second Cloud’s smile at Tifa was him agreeing with her. It even says in the Reunion Files. “Cloud speaks with his eyes instead of his mouth most of the time.” Third Cloud only started living in her church recently. For most of the two years he had been living with Tifa very happily and ever raising children with her. He was creating his new life with her like he said he would. He only started feeling guilty about Aeris and Zack when Cloud got that package came from Aeris’s foster mother. Fourth Cloud was dying from Geostigma. he ran away because he didn’t want Tifa and the kids to know that he was dying. He didn’t want them to be sad for him. For the fith and final reason, if he really didn’t want to be with Tifa then why did he keep his cell phone with him for her to call him? And why would he listen to all of her messages including the one’s that were not about his deliveries? Not to mention that if he really wanted to be close to Aeris and far away from Tifa then why go to Aeris’s old church which is right next to New Midgar (Where Tifa and the Kids are)? Why not go and live in the City of the Ancients where he could be closest to Aeris? It’s because even thought he didn’t want Tifa and the kids to know that he was dying of Geostigma he still wanted to keep in contacted with them somehow. SefieGainsborough RanmaxHikaru Cloud feels guilty because he thinks that he could have stopped Sephiroth from killing her somehow and you can assume whatever you want that doesn’t make it cannon. Oh, I definatly KNOW that's cannon, and I don't argue Cloud felt guilty. I'm just saying that guilt isn't his ONLY motivation. Maybe not his only motivation but I doubt he was being motivated by love or else the seen when he finally got to talk with Aeris instead of saying “I want to be forgiven.” He would have said something like ‘I love you but I want to move on with my life.” Or something to that effected. SefieGainsborough RanmaxHikaru Because SE really doesn’t give a rip about the LTD that fans have created. They are a huge company worth millions of dollars something like the LTD doesn’t even mater to them. Of course they do. These are their FANS, their CUSTOMERS. They know what a big deal the LT is to all of us, and they know that if they ever SOLVED it that they'd lose half their fanbase, and all their millions of dollars. Well in that case this thread and all of the Cleris and Clotif cannon arguments are a big waist of time since nether one can ever be cannon. SefieGainsborough RanmaxHikaru Furthermore: the quote you provided was "Tifa is LIKE a mother, ally, sweetheart" She's LIKE one. Which doesn't mean she IS one. And she DOES act like a mother, an ally and a lover. She tries to get Cloud to do the right thing, what she thinks would be best for him. She tries to help him. So she most defiantly DOES act like a lover, but that doesn't mean she IS one. Well of cores they have to word it that way because there is no way to know 100% unless Cloud or Tifa actually come out and say it but the hint is pretty clear. This is also consistent with all of SE statements. SefieGainsborough RanmaxHikaru [Duh that game wasn't about Cloud, Tifa, or any of them for that mater. It was about Vincent. So....why not just SHOW them together? Doesn't take anything big, it doesn't have to be a huge part of the plot. Maybe just show them together holding hands? The fact that the game is about Vincent is no excuse, AC was about Cloud yet we were told that Cid and Shera got together (named his airship after her). Holding hands? Please they were there fighting Deep Ground Solders with Vincent. And just so you know they were both smiling when they were talking on the phone to each other and they both went back to New Midgar together to take care of the DGS there. And most importantly the pink ribbons they were both wearing around their arms in remembrance of Aeris are now gone. SefieGainsborough RanmaxHikaru That’s just stupid. Cloud wasn't running of into the flowerfield he finished a delivery and even called Tifa and told her to tell Denzel and Marlene that he had the day off and that he was coming home. Er...yeah, that's why the last shot of him we see is him riding into the middle of a flowerfield. When we were just shown a shot of Aeris standing in a flowerfield... Aeris was watching Cloud pass by her flower fileds SefieGainsborough RanmaxHikaru That comment wasn’t even directed at you so you answering it was irrelevant. I was responding to what was said, thsi IS a free forum, is it not? I'm allowed to respond to what I want? Let's keep this CIVIL. I'm trying to be polite and respectful with you, I would appreciate the same consideration. This is a free forum to discuss Clouds love interest yes but again that specific comment wasn’t directed at you it was directed at someone else. Answering someone else comment can be considered rude. hmm...well this is what I read:
He had to deal with the shame and humiliation of being rejected by Tifa and her friends day in and day out. Then, he is blamed for Tifa falling off the bridge at Mt. Nibel. Does this sound like they were close? In this article, Naru, a girl who grew up in Japan, states that she believes Cloud was actually the subject of "ijime", or bullying, from Tifa and her friends. This is, in fact, true. You can see two articles on "ijime" here and here. These articles state that victims of "ijime" are ignored, ostracized, and humiliated. This is exactly what happens to Cloud during his childhood. So, why would Cloud fall in love with someone who bullied him as a child? Some people don't believe Tifa bullied Cloud because they are looking at this from a NA perspective. However, in Japan, it is a well-known fact that children wish to fit into a group. Cloud was excluded from Tifa's group. Tifa participated in his exclusion willingly. According to the Japanese, Tifa was guilty of subjecting Cloud to "ijime"
here are a few excerpts from the first link I gave:
Aly: There is a direct translation of the Japanese game available at RPGamer, and I can find many discrepancies between the Japanese version and the NA version of the FFVII. Are these the differences in translations that you're referring to?
Naru: Yes. I am not saying that Square Enix of America did a bad job at translation. I am just saying that they have altered some of the conversations a bit too much, and confused the consumers.
-----
Aly: I completely agree that Cloud and Aerith had a very romantic relationship, but this is not obvious to many Americans. Cloud x Tifa supporters, for example, believe that the scene where Cloud spends the night under the Highwind with Tifa is the only romantic scene in the game.
Naru: My friends and I all thought that Cloud might have been subjected to ijime (bullying) by Tifa and her friends when they were all little kids. So unless Cloud was into masochism (I hope not!), why would he like the girl who bullied him during the childhood? I think the whole problem lie in cultural difference and translation. Final Fantasy VII would not be the first one to face such problems. I was quite surprised to hear all these debates because people I know (myself included) just took it as a game and nothing more. Of course, some of my guy friends did say Tifa would make better girlfriend for Cloud than Aerith was because of the size of her chest *COUGH* (but we were only joking back then).
Perhaps Square Enix wanted to make this game a lot different from other RPG games. Therefore, they decided to throw in many symbolism and cultural messages in it. Unfortunately, for such symbolism to work, the viewers (players) should have to understood the mechanism very well or it would cause more confusion.
The Date Sequence
Aly: I've noticed that the Japanese game manual doesn't even mention the Love Triangle. My guess is that the options available to Cloud for the Date sequence was really intended by Square as something like an animated doujinshi for the amusement of the player, rather than an option of who Cloud actually loved. Do the Japanese see it that way?
Naru: When I first played that game, I was more into the plotline than the love stuff going on in the background. I just found it amusing when the dating thing popped up and commented, "it's so Tokimemo (Tokimeki Memorial, the pretty well known dating sim game)".
Well, majority of my guy friends were nicer to Tifa (for having huge chests); majority of my girl friends were nicer to Aerith; some went for Yuffie as well. So I think yes, I think of it as a personal preference thing from Square Enix, although the official couple was still Aerith and Cloud.
-----
Aly: So the Date sequence is there for the amusement of the player... right? The Japanese see the Date choices as an amusing and funny dating sim game that has nothing to do with who the official couple of the game is... correct?
Naru: Well, everybody know that the official couple of FFVII was Cloud and Aerith, FFVIII was Squall and Rinoa; on FFIX, it was Zidane and Garnet; on FFX, it was Tidus and Yuna. Yet, we see different pairings on doujin. Yes, we do know who official couples are; it is just that some of us might think that Tidus might have been better off with someone else. So hence the doujin came into play. It was equivalent to fanfics in Japanese society.
To me, the entire date choices were the inside joke. Dating simulation games were (and still are) popular in Japan. That was why the Thousand Arms was very funny because it featured mini dating simulation game in it. Imagine how funny it could be when FFVII threw in a joke like that.
-----
Aly: So it was meant as a joke?!? Americans believe that it is meant to show who Cloud loves!!!
Naru: Dating simulation game was (and still is) very popular genre in Japan. Even the porn games follow such format. So it was more like an inside joke/parady at Japanese culture.
The Highwind Scene-----
Aly: Was the scene where Cloud spends the night under the Highwind one of the conversations changed? It appears to be very different in the Japanese version of the game. From what you tell me, that scene was supposed to show that Cloud no longer had a crush on Tifa, but that his heart now belongs to Aerith. Is that one of changes that confused the consumers? Also, what is it supposed to mean when Aerith tells Cloud, "I want to meet... you" in the Date scene?
Naru: Direct translation would be a very bad idea because nine out of ten times, the conversations would not make sense. So instead, translators were encouraged to stay as close to the conversations represented in the original. So majority of times, translators would add words or come up with new sentences that would make sense in Western culture (which did make me laugh so much the other day when I saw the difference in FFX-2 ending FMV).
When I saw the Highwind scene, I always thought of it as that Tifa was going to confess her feelings to Cloud; however, Cloud was just not interested. I think Square Enix did confuse some people because they added the line, "... you" in the Lifestream scene (the one about where Tifa asked him if he remembered anything about her and he said Tifa was the reason why he joined the SOLDIER). When I played US version and saw the word 'you', I thought that maybe Cloud meant it as, "you and I lived next door, and you always ignored me. So I thought if I became stronger, you'd play with me!"
Ah, the infamous, 'I want to meet you'. I think maybe Square should have changed it to something else so it would make sense to players in US and Europe. Why they refused to change that one was beyond me. The most closest words in Western society to 'I want to meet you' would be, 'I want to be your girlfriend/boyfriend. Will you be please be my sweetheart?'.
-----
Aly: Wasn't the line that Tifa says in the Highwind scene about "Words aren't the only thing that tell what you're thinking" added to the scene by the translators? Tifa never said that in the original Japanese game, did she? That one line has greatly confused American players. Many NA players interpret that line to mean that Cloud went to bed with Tifa and fell in love with Tifa that night.
Naru: Funny, I do not remember seeing a line like that from JP version. Maybe in Japanese version, Tifa has spoke it a bit differently, but I do not remember seeing anything like that.
-----
Aly: So the dialogue is very different in the Japanese version than it is in the American version of the game. It is more as if Cloud and Tifa are simply coming to an understanding of one another. Any reactions or observations about this version from a Japanese perspective, Naru?
Naru: I did get a sense that Cloud was fond of Tifa on the high affectionate US version; but being fond of someone was different from being in love with someone, was not it? I daresay that Cloud was fond of Tifa as a teammate, but did not necessarily think of her as a girlfriend material.
-----
Aly: When Tifa says, "Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking", Cloud only says, ".......". He doesn't approach her, he doesn't touch her, and she's crying as she says it. He just looks at her and says, "......."
Now, "......." is used in FF VII in situations where the character is feeling uncomfortable in some way, usually irritated, aggravated, uncertain, and even angry. The only other time that it's used is when the player has a choice of responses next.
Naru: Yup, "......" is used in manga/anime during the situation when the person feels uncomfortable like embarrassment, irritation, surprise, annoyance, uncertainty, things like that. Anyways, unless you were raised in the opposite part, it kind of become hard to catch on at first. I replayed the Highwind Scene again to see what was so romantic about it. Maybe Tifa was in the mood or something, but as far as I could see, Cloud did not care at all.
-----
Aly: What did you think "........." was supposed to mean in Cloud's case? To me, it means that he is quite hesitant and unsure how to respond.
Naru: Personally, I thought of it as, 'OMG LADY OMG, GET A HOLD OF YOURSELF!'. j/k!!
I thought of his reaction as "but i never thought of you this way, Tifa."
-----
Aly: What gave you the impression that Cloud wasn't interested? There's a lot of things going on in that scene that most Americans don't really understand. From a Japanese perspective, Naru, why is Tifa embarrassed the next morning?
Naru: Tifa was confessing her feelings; yet the main hero was not seem to be interested at all. Knowing that Cloud has been bullied by her, why would he want to get with her in the first place? The way that she treated Cloud during the childhood did fit all the description of bullying in Japan (that's why I never liked Tifa or did not think that Cloud could be interested to her).
Well, if a girl confessed her feeling to a guy, then the guy outright ignored it, would not the girl get embarrassed? That was the impression I got even from the US version. In the JP version... well, it was true that Tifa did have some feeling for Cloud; however, again, the man was not interested in her at all.
-----
Aly: So the Japanese perspective of Cloud saying, "......." in response to Tifa's bit about "Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking" is that he's basically turning her down? From a Japanese perspective, Cloud would respond if he were interested... is that what you're saying?
Naru: Of course, it might not be a romantic response according to the western standard. But the guy would definitely respond if he was interested in pursuing a relationship with a girl; even if it was like a simple, 'h'n'.
Personally, I took his silence as, "yeah so, what about it? Words aren't the only thing to tell that I am in love with Aerith". My other girl friend took it as, ".... no... no way, Tifa" Please keep in mind that I translated what my friend and I thought to English. The original was in Japanese.
-----
Aly: Tifa gets embarrassed on board the Highwind the next morning because Cloud showed no interest after she confessed her feelings to him?
Naru: I always took it as Tifa got embarrassed because Cloud rejected her. She was trying to cover it up by saying how lonely it was in Highwind with just two of them there.
Cloud's Childhood
-----
Aly: So Cloud did not join SOLDIER for Tifa? Many Americans believe that Cloud joined SOLDIER out of his love for Tifa because he wanted her to be attracted to him. Are you saying that Cloud only wanted Tifa to become his friend as a child and nothing more? Is it clearly shown in the Japanese game that Cloud was ignored by Tifa as a child, and that he and Tifa were never close childhood friends?
Naru: To me, I think Cloud was a subject of ijime or bullying from Tifa and her friends. Kids never played with him and ignored him and that fit into the typical defintion of bullying in Japanese society.
In Japan, there is a saying that if you want to overcome getting bullied by other people, you will have to be stronger and show them you are not a weakling to the others. I think that's why Cloud wanted to join the SOLDIER. I always thought that Tifa started to pay more attention to Cloud after he left because she finally realized that she has been bullying him and felt guilt in her heart.
-----
Aly: And are you saying that... from a Japanese perspective... Tifa was actually bullying Cloud along with her friends in Nibelheim? What about this supposed crush that Cloud had on her as a child?
Naru: Yes, I believe Tifa was bullying Cloud along with her friends. Cloud did mention that they (Tifa and her friends) never invited Cloud to the games, or never bothered to hang out with him. Cloud has been downright ignored by them. Ijime happens a lot in Japan. The victim suffers from conditions like getting ignored or even beaten up or become a scape goat for things. I think all Cloud wanted was to have friends and be a normal kid, instead of getting ignored.
-----
Aly: I've always wondered why she would think of him after he left... it actually makes little sense. They weren't friends, they hardly knew one another... yet, she thinks about him while he was gone. If she didn't know him well, then she was imagining things about him while he was gone. She wasn't even thinking about the real Cloud... but what her imagination made him out to be.
Naru: After the accident at the Mt. Nibel, Cloud has told Tifa that he would be stronger and join the Soldier, right? I think it somehow surprised her (coming from a wimp kid whom she used to bullied on along with her friend). It somehow intrigued her interest on Cloud. Maybe she felt guilt for bullying him as well?
Was not Soldiers associated with power and being strong? Maybe Tifa wanted to be a girlfriend of someone strong and powerful as well, just like any teenage girls would want to be. Therefore, when Cloud shared his plan of joining the Soldier, it must have sparked her interest on him
Cloud's Grief----
Naru: In Japan, you are not allowed to cry out loud during the funeral (if you cry out loud, well, you are a weirdo and cannot control your emotion well).
Oh yes, just because Cloud has not been bawling his eyes out never automatically sums up that he does not care for Aerith at all. Will NA audiences like if even better if Cloud breaks down, sobbing like a girl? Please, his character is the stoic, cold guy, I have yet to see a cold guy doing that (in manga and anime and game wise, I mean). And guys are encouraged not to cry or show their emotion normally.
Cloud also chooses to grief inwardly. Again, that is how Japanese has been taught to grieve if the loved one passes away. You never ever attend a funeral and bawl your eyes not. That's like a taboo.
Cloud "What about us... what are WE supposed to do?"
Well, in JP version, that 'what about us, what are WE supposed to do?', has been pointing at Cloud and Aerith, the love two shared. The direct translation might have been, "what about you and I? What can be done now?'
(He gently rests her on the floor.)
Cloud "What about my pain?"
(He trembles.)
Cloud "My fingers are tingling. My mouth is dry. My eyes are burning!"
To be honest, I thought Cloud was speaking himself and Aerith while holding her close to him. I think the JP version spoke something pretty similar line; but the manner of his speech has been pretty intimate.
-----
Naru: It is funny how NA audiences think that Cloud has gotten rid of Aerith's memory that fast. If someone dear to you (like your friends, family members, lovers) died, will you be able to purge their memory that easily? I think not. If a person has been able to forget of someone that easily, then that means you never cared for that person to begin with. And if you are that kind of person, shows how much cruel you are deep inside.
I think the love requiring both spiritual and physical bond has been strongly influenced by Buddhism, though.
The Final FMV
-----
Aly: When Tifa says, "Yeah... let's go meet her", are you saying it means that Tifa has decided to let Cloud follow his heart and his love for Aerith while honoring Aerith's memory as a true friend?
Naru: Yes. I think that is the only option left for Tifa now. Cloud is never interested in her.
My brother, by the way, thought that the entire love triangle argument was kind of interesting. He did say though, (i quote) "okay, we got Aerith and Cloud looking at each other like lovers in the end of Kingdom Hearts. Find me a game that shows Tifa and Cloud looking at each other like that and I will buy Tifa x Cloud stuff."
-----
Naru: How did Tifa understand in the end? I just knew in the end, but I am going to try to put it as best as I can in English
Well, first of all, Cloud has not been showing any interest to her, and second of all, even when the two of them were clinging for their lives in the end, Cloud spoke of Aerith, not Tifa.
Odd isn't it? Will not normal reaction be, 'Tifa, I will get you out of here!' or something else, not, 'an answer from the planet... the promised land... I can meet her there...' I have been taught that during the brink of death, humans speak of the truth, or what they desire the most in their lives.
And the line 'an answer from the planet' associates itself with Aerith already. As we all know, Aerith has been the only surviving Cetra, the race that dedicated their entire lives on making the planet into a better place. Aerith has returned to the planet, meaning she is the part of the planet.
-----
Naru: In JP version, Cloud says (if I make a rough translation in English), "If it is that place, I can meet her." Now, depend on the context, the word place does not have to mean the physically existing realm. It can mean something else as well.
When I have seen Cloud trying to grasp the hand, I thought that Aerith is trying to tell him not to forget about her, the love they shared, and the bond still existing between them. Because as long as he does not severe the bond, she will always be with him, not physically, no, but in spiritual sense. I think maybe what Aerith wants to say was that she would always be with him (in spirit form) as long as he keep the memory of her.
-----
Naru: This is the way I interpreted the ending. Cloud stresses so many times through out the game that Aerith has not been forgotten. In fact, he even says that he can feel her presence too.
True, not being able to be together physically will hurt a lot; but like I have said, if the love is strong, then it shall surpass everything, even death or great distance between the two lovers. If Cloud never gives up, then he will find her, then he will be able to taste the supreme happiness.
I think that the bond itself emits great spiritual energy and power already because their love has surpassed the death. It is kind of funny, I always thought of Cloud almost found his own promised land during the ending FMV. In a way, I think Aerith herself is the representation of Promised Land.
I think Tifa finally understands in the end that he has no room for any other woman in his heart. She and Aerith happen to be friends, right? Friendship can form a strong bond as well, and if Tifa indeed cherishes Aerith as a true friend, then she will be able to find the Promised Land as well.
Shadow Spirit is a nikkei, or Japanese descendant, who has learned the culture of Japan from family members who were born and raised in Japan. Much of his education has been rooted in their cultural view. He is adept with the Japanese language, has played the Japanese version of FFVII, and visits Japanese forums. Here are Shadow Spirit's observations:
When Cloud says, "What about US? What are WE supposed to do?" in Aerith's death scene, the phrase is directed to Cloud and Aerith in a personal sense, almost like a talk between him and her. The language usage in this scene is painful, soft, and personal, instead of Cloud's usual rough manner of speech. Although that doesn't indicate love in and of itself, it's the only scene in the game where Cloud showed a soft side, so it's pretty much sure that Aerith was very important to him and much more than just a friend. Aerith is the only person who captured Cloud's attention like this in the game. Since your actions reveal who you love in Japan, then his feelings for Aerith are suggested in this scene.
- Ikebana is the art of tending fllowers. It's a special art that not every woman can do. The art means care, healing, and softness. The flower that is being worked on also defines the person's nature: yellow means light/compassion. White means softness/purity. Green means nature/happiness. Red/purple/pink means love. Aerith was a flower girl, and in Japan, "flower girls" would be women that know the art of ikebana.
- Ying/yang: in order for anything to work, you must have two opposite sides. Two persons with similar characteristics won't work out, but two complete opposites work very well. Cloud and Aerith were natural opposites in terms of colors, personality, strength and weakness (the four things that matter the most in symbolism).
- "What about US? What are WE suppposed to do?": The "us" in that line is NOT a reference to Cloud's party. It's more like a personal talk, where Cloud is speaking directly to Aerith, almost as if he wants to spend a moment alone with her. The Japanese game was quite clear about this.
- Aerith's parasol is a reference to Ai ai Gasa, which is a childhood game where you put your names under a parasol drawn on paper. It's a mark of love, similar to putting your names inside of a heart.
- Bodyguard: wanting to protect someone by free will in Japan is a mark of love. Usually, the stronger the bond is, the stronger the love is. Being a bodyguard is very strong, in my opinion. Being asked to protect someone doesn't mean love, but doing it of your own free will is
You know Pink I find it very interesting that your opinion is always to point to someone else’s opinion. Nither Aly or Naru are official members of SE so what they say to each other is basically their own opinion and meaningless to weather CloudxAeris or CloudxTifa is cannon. Also where is her official data from SE stating all of these things? I mean she could very well be making things up to make it sound like Cloud xAeris were suppose to be the cannon couple. Also I’m sure If someone was obsessive enough they could find lots of Japanese symbolism and cultural in Cloud and Tifa’s relationship too. So please if your trying to prove something cannon then please give us stuff directly from SE and not from some fan site. That really dosn't give your argument any leverage.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:22 pm
RanmaxHikaru You know Pink I find it very interesting that your opinion is always to point to someone else’s opinion. Nither Aly or Naru are official members of SE so what they say to each other is basically their own opinion and meaningless to weather CloudxAeris or CloudxTifa is cannon. Also where is her official data from SE stating all of these things? I mean she could very well be making things up to make it sound like Cloud xAeris were suppose to be the cannon couple. Also I’m sure If someone was obsessive enough they could find lots of Japanese symbolism and cultural in Cloud and Tifa’s relationship too. So please if your trying to prove something cannon then please give us stuff directly from SE and not from some fan site. That really dosn't give your argument any leverage.
ha thats it! the point is that their really is no symbolism between tifa and cloud
and that is what I've been repeating
all connections and symbolism dealt with aerith and cloud
and anything cloud and tifa related dealt with sadness not love
if you looked into that and looked at the symbolism then you'd know
and you cannot assume that these people are 'obsessive' as you say
because as I've said for the billionth time
from the way FFVII was presented to the japanese audiences
the symbolism that westerners have to look for is
quite obvious to the Japanese
because that is part of their culture
and they dont have to look for it
because its second nature to them
and what I'm saying is not proving that this is the 'canon couple' altough most signs do point to that >> I want to show you who Cloud really loves
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:26 pm
soadshuyin .[.pink.spider.]. soadshuyin .[.pink.spider.]. soadshuyin So this one girls opinion on how the game went through is supposed to represent all of Japans view on the game? No, doesnt work like that. Gotta have multiple views from a controlled group in order to have it even mean anything. One persons view cannot represent an entirety, even if they say it all pretty and try and use a different version of the game in their defense.
if you read it all ^^
people who have both lived in japan and have be flourished in the japanese culture and enviornment
and of course not all Japanese people will agree but it is more of a overall judgement and outlook
and how the FFVII loves were introduced
if you want I can get plenty of interviews with different japanese people if that'll make you feel better
but from the way that FFVII was presented many people agree
and also as I mentioned there is no mention of a love triangle in the japanese game
and I think the root of all this love triangle stuff really is cultural differences as Naru in the first interview saysIts more one person answering anothers questions. And it cant be an overall judgement with only two people. Thatd be like me saying hockey is the best sport in the world because me and my friends say so.
Naru, a girl who grew up in Japan
and
Shadow Spirit is a nikkei, or Japanese descendant, who has learned the culture of Japan from family members who were born and raised in Japan. Much of his education has been rooted in their cultural view. He is adept with the Japanese language, has played the Japanese version of FFVII, and visits Japanese forums
well as I was reading other interviws Naru usually refers to her friends and those who like FFVII
she even said that some of her friends like tifa
but the majority of Japan is more cloudxaerith
because of how FFVII was presentedSorry, skipped over the paragraph stating who he was. But still, thats just how they perceive the game. It only represents their views. Him or her saying that most of Japan believes that isnt plausible, though possible.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:29 pm
.[.pink.spider.]. soadshuyin .[.pink.spider.]. soadshuyin .[.pink.spider.]. soadshuyin So this one girls opinion on how the game went through is supposed to represent all of Japans view on the game? No, doesnt work like that. Gotta have multiple views from a controlled group in order to have it even mean anything. One persons view cannot represent an entirety, even if they say it all pretty and try and use a different version of the game in their defense.
if you read it all ^^
people who have both lived in japan and have be flourished in the japanese culture and enviornment
and of course not all Japanese people will agree but it is more of a overall judgement and outlook
and how the FFVII loves were introduced
if you want I can get plenty of interviews with different japanese people if that'll make you feel better
but from the way that FFVII was presented many people agree
and also as I mentioned there is no mention of a love triangle in the japanese game
and I think the root of all this love triangle stuff really is cultural differences as Naru in the first interview saysIts more one person answering anothers questions. And it cant be an overall judgement with only two people. Thatd be like me saying hockey is the best sport in the world because me and my friends say so.
Naru, a girl who grew up in Japan
and
Shadow Spirit is a nikkei, or Japanese descendant, who has learned the culture of Japan from family members who were born and raised in Japan. Much of his education has been rooted in their cultural view. He is adept with the Japanese language, has played the Japanese version of FFVII, and visits Japanese forums
well as I was reading other interviws Naru usually refers to her friends and those who like FFVII
she even said that some of her friends like tifa
but the majority of Japan is more cloudxaerith
because of how FFVII was presentedSorry, skipped over the paragraph stating who he was. But still, thats just how they perceive the game. It only represents their views. Him or her saying that most of Japan believes that isnt plausible, though possible. I did. And saying there is no symbolism between Tifa and Cloud is just.....hmmmm....gotta think of a good term for this.....dumb.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:34 pm
soadshuyin .[.pink.spider.]. soadshuyin .[.pink.spider.]. soadshuyin Its more one person answering anothers questions. And it cant be an overall judgement with only two people. Thatd be like me saying hockey is the best sport in the world because me and my friends say so.
Naru, a girl who grew up in Japan
and
Shadow Spirit is a nikkei, or Japanese descendant, who has learned the culture of Japan from family members who were born and raised in Japan. Much of his education has been rooted in their cultural view. He is adept with the Japanese language, has played the Japanese version of FFVII, and visits Japanese forums
well as I was reading other interviws Naru usually refers to her friends and those who like FFVII
she even said that some of her friends like tifa
but the majority of Japan is more cloudxaerith
because of how FFVII was presentedSorry, skipped over the paragraph stating who he was. But still, thats just how they perceive the game. It only represents their views. Him or her saying that most of Japan believes that isnt plausible, though possible. I did. And saying there is no symbolism between Tifa and Cloud is just.....hmmmm....gotta think of a good term for this.....dumb.
but more of what I meant when I said there is no symbolism between them, I meant that points to them in a romantic sense or any connections of love
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:41 pm
.[.pink.spider.]. soadshuyin .[.pink.spider.]. soadshuyin .[.pink.spider.]. soadshuyin Its more one person answering anothers questions. And it cant be an overall judgement with only two people. Thatd be like me saying hockey is the best sport in the world because me and my friends say so.
Naru, a girl who grew up in Japan
and
Shadow Spirit is a nikkei, or Japanese descendant, who has learned the culture of Japan from family members who were born and raised in Japan. Much of his education has been rooted in their cultural view. He is adept with the Japanese language, has played the Japanese version of FFVII, and visits Japanese forums
well as I was reading other interviws Naru usually refers to her friends and those who like FFVII
she even said that some of her friends like tifa
but the majority of Japan is more cloudxaerith
because of how FFVII was presentedSorry, skipped over the paragraph stating who he was. But still, thats just how they perceive the game. It only represents their views. Him or her saying that most of Japan believes that isnt plausible, though possible. I did. And saying there is no symbolism between Tifa and Cloud is just.....hmmmm....gotta think of a good term for this.....dumb.
but more of what I meant when I said there is no symbolism between them, I meant that points to them in a romantic sense or any connections of loveBut Im not from a Japanese background, so my views on symbolism would not be valid according to how the game was apparently supposed to be viewed. Without this "valid" view, how could my thoughts ever be taken seriously? That and I dont have anything organized at the moment, so youd have to wait some time on it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:37 pm
i would have to say both tifa and aeris. But he really liked tifa at a younger age.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:54 pm
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:55 pm
I must apologize to RanmaxHikaru, I'd forgotten how bitter LT debating can make me and I'm afraid I'm going to have to withdraw from this discussion. I'm a very emotional person, and while it IS stupid to get as bothered as I do by a debate about which pile of pixels this other pile of pixels loved, it still bothers me. So..I'm afraid I'm hanging up my hat after only two posts. ^_^ Good luck to my fellow Clerises though, maybe I'll pop in now and then to back you up.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:11 pm
SefieGainsborough I must apologize to RanmaxHikaru, I'd forgotten how bitter LT debating can make me and I'm afraid I'm going to have to withdraw from this discussion. I'm a very emotional person, and while it IS stupid to get as bothered as I do by a debate about which pile of pixels this other pile of pixels loved, it still bothers me. So..I'm afraid I'm hanging up my hat after only two posts. ^_^ Good luck to my fellow Clerises though, maybe I'll pop in now and then to back you up. Umm you don't have to apologize. Really sweatdrop I wasn't trying to chase to away. And I know how you feel about the LTD getting heated. I sometimes forget that they’re only game characters too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:44 pm
RanmaxHikaru SefieGainsborough I must apologize to RanmaxHikaru, I'd forgotten how bitter LT debating can make me and I'm afraid I'm going to have to withdraw from this discussion. I'm a very emotional person, and while it IS stupid to get as bothered as I do by a debate about which pile of pixels this other pile of pixels loved, it still bothers me. So..I'm afraid I'm hanging up my hat after only two posts. ^_^ Good luck to my fellow Clerises though, maybe I'll pop in now and then to back you up. Umm you don't have to apologize. Really sweatdrop I wasn't trying to chase to away. And I know how you feel about the LTD getting heated. I sometimes forget that they’re only game characters too. You didn't chase me away, I would've gotten upset anyways. Thanks for bein' nice about it ^_^
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
![.[.pink.spider.].'s avatar](https://a1cdn.gaiaonline.com/dress-up/avatar/ava/8d/e7/20e4103e1de78d_flip.png?t=1252290266_6.00_00)
