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Whoa...can this be real?...A PEACEABLE LTD? Wow, I really didn't think those were possible*Gives mad props to all invovled*

Anyways, I believe Cloud truly loved Aeris.

*Reads last couple of posts* Hrm



But if you read "Case of Tifa", it explains when and why Cloud left. It wasn't because he was scared they would get hurt, it's because he was UNHAPPY.

Honestly, what proved Cleris to me the most was the ending of the game(sorry if this has been discussed. If it has, just tell me and I'll drop it). Cloud looks up into the Lifestream, sees Aeris, stares at her in shock and reaches slowly for her. She reaches back and he smiles as their hands get closer. Then this vision is shattered and he sees Tifa. The peaceful, joyful, tender music ends and Cloud has to save Tifa as she falls.
Okay, so here we have Cloud hanging over the edge of oblivion, Tifa in his arms after he's just saved her from certain death. So they're dangling there, and what does he say to the woman in his arms? "You alright Tifa!?" "Hang on Tifa!" "I'll save you Tifa!"
No.
"An answer from the planet....The Promised Land...I can meet her there."
He talks about Aeris. He talks about finding Aeris again in the Promised Land. The land of supreme happiness.

NO, Cloud OBVIOUSLY liked Aeris
C'mon people! Why do you think Cloud stays in the flippin' church where
he first met Aeris?!! Besides...Tifa annoys the crap out of everybody... stare

Nuuu, let's keep this LTD reasonable! crying



WHERE does it say that? And that doesn't mean very much as Cloud and Tifa were the ONLY charcters in the original story line(which was just a big game of telephone fyi)
In fact, WHERE does it say this? And the quote about Sephiroth and Aeris should PROVE that your CloTi quote means nothing, because SephirothxAeris is ANYTHING but canon.
And they sure as hell say PLENTY about Aeris. She's got her own page in the reunion files, she was the first female character announced. Tifa's design is mentioned because she's got the most screen time.
I also bring to your attention the advertising for FFVII:
Offical FFVII Commercial
Also, the fact that the advertising used in Japan was the rendering of Cloud and....AERIS' models.
The list goes on and on, shall I give you more? ^_^

He didn't go and live on the cliff where Zack died, or in Nibelhiem where his mother died.
Also, does it EVER say ANYWHERE that Cloud merely went there out of guilt? No. However, in CoT it DEFINATLY says that Cloud and Tifa weren't getting along together, so he left. He went to Aeris' church. Why? We can only make assumptions. You assume guilt, but why? I assume comfort, for many reasons.



See, my problem with that is...why would SE solve the HUGE LTD with one little sentence in a companion book? Why not a big announcement? Why not show them together in DoC? Why not show Cloud riding into Tifa's arms at the end of AC rather than off to the flowerfield where Aeris is?


Oh and there are an equal amount of Tifa, Aeris, Yuffie, Cloud, Barret, etc etc haters. Just because FANS dislike the characters doesn't mean the OTHER characters do. It's irreleveant

Crush on Tifa in the past and fell for aerith after first reactor explosion...

To say nothing of her saving the planet, encouraging the other characters, giving them additional motivation for killing Sephiroth, being the last ancient, REPRESENTING THE GAME'S THEME, etc


sweatdrop I don't think you understand the meaning of that sentence, I'll come back to that later when I have more time.


Let's keep this civil. I wasn't talking about the ceramic models(which were created as a series of "Pivitol scenes", and Aeris' death was most certainly one of the most important and memorable).
I was talking about the Japanese commercials which show the process of creating their renders for the game. From the frame and on through the fleshing out. Cloud and Aeris are used, no Tifa there. Cloud and Aeris are also the first two characters you see both in the game itself and in the game manual(They have their own page, you have to TURN the page to see Tifa.)
Let's draw some parallels:
FF8- You see Rinoa being all pretty and mysterious in the flower field, then are shown Squall.
FF9- You see Garnet and her mother on the ship, then Garnet herself in the castle, then Zidane on the airship.
FF10 didn't have an actual FMV opening, but the cut scene that we are shown focuses on Tidus and Yuna.


He...felt no guilt over his mother's death? You're saying that Cloud, emo extrordanaire, felt NO remorse over his mother's death? That he just brushed her off?
And if he felt guilty about Aeris' death WHY would he go stay in her church? Which would remind him of her death and his sin? It couldn't have been ONLY guilt.



Perhaps that's when YOU realize it. Let's also examine the fact that his guilt over Aeris' death is the most pressing one we see. And keep in mind the scene afterwards:
"Can sins ever be forgiven?"
Vincent: I don't know, never tried
*Flash back to the flower field scene*
"Forgiven by who?"
Then Cloud seems stronger, more determined, and heads off to do what he knows he must.
Now, what is Vincent's story? He let the woman he loved face the worst? That's his SIN. They're drawing PARALLELS.


Yeah, that's why Cloud wasn't telling Tifa anything, that's why all the scenes between them are awkward, blah blah blah.
And yes, he brought Denzel to her. Who he believed Aeris had brought to HIM. Tifa argues and says that Aeris brought him to THEM, but we don't hear Cloud agreeing with her.
So...Cloud's feeling guilty about Aeris' death, he smiles at Tifa and runs off to live in Aeris' church, without telling the woman he loves where he's going or not to worry? AND he leaves her alone with no mean of income AND with two children? One of which is deathly sick? Doesn't strike me as very loving.
Scratch the not hearing Cloud's argument: He just smiles at Tifa, and leaves. He gave up. He couldn't argue with her, he gave up, and left. To AERIS' church.


Oh, I definatly KNOW that's cannon, and I don't argue Cloud felt guilty. I'm just saying that guilt isn't his ONLY motivation.



Of course they do. These are their FANS, their CUSTOMERS. They know what a big deal the LT is to all of us, and they know that if they ever SOLVED it that they'd lose half their fanbase, and all their millions of dollars.
Furthermore: the quote you provided was "Tifa is LIKE a mother, ally, sweetheart"
She's LIKE one. Which doesn't mean she IS one. And she DOES act like a mother, an ally and a lover. She tries to get Cloud to do the right thing, what she thinks would be best for him. She tries to help him. So she most definatly DOES act like a lover, but that doesn't mean she IS one.


So....why not just SHOW them together? Doesn't take anything big, it doesn't have to be a huge part of the plot. Maybe just show them together holding hands? The fact that the game is about Vincent is no excuse, AC was about Cloud yet we were told that Cid and Shera got together(named his airship after her).


Er...yeah, that's why the last shot of him we see is him riding into the middle of a flowerfield. When we were just shown a shot of Aeris standing in a flowerfield...



I was responding to what was said, thsi IS a free forum, is it not? I'm allowed to respond to what I want? Let's keep this CIVIL. I'm trying to be polite and respectful with you, I would appreciate the same consideration.

they werent childhood sweehearts you are missinformed
she didnt even like him its even stated in the japanese v. they considered her a bully towards cloud
I wouldnt call that 'childhood love'

hmm...well this is what I read:
He had to deal with the shame and humiliation of being rejected by Tifa and her friends day in and day out. Then, he is blamed for Tifa falling off the bridge at Mt. Nibel. Does this sound like they were close? In this article, Naru, a girl who grew up in Japan, states that she believes Cloud was actually the subject of "ijime", or bullying, from Tifa and her friends. This is, in fact, true. You can see two articles on "ijime" here and here. These articles state that victims of "ijime" are ignored, ostracized, and humiliated. This is exactly what happens to Cloud during his childhood. So, why would Cloud fall in love with someone who bullied him as a child? Some people don't believe Tifa bullied Cloud because they are looking at this from a NA perspective. However, in Japan, it is a well-known fact that children wish to fit into a group. Cloud was excluded from Tifa's group. Tifa participated in his exclusion willingly. According to the Japanese, Tifa was guilty of subjecting Cloud to "ijime"

here are a few excerpts from the first link I gave:

Aly: There is a direct translation of the Japanese game available at RPGamer, and I can find many discrepancies between the Japanese version and the NA version of the FFVII. Are these the differences in translations that you're referring to?

Naru: Yes. I am not saying that Square Enix of America did a bad job at translation. I am just saying that they have altered some of the conversations a bit too much, and confused the consumers.
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Aly: I completely agree that Cloud and Aerith had a very romantic relationship, but this is not obvious to many Americans. Cloud x Tifa supporters, for example, believe that the scene where Cloud spends the night under the Highwind with Tifa is the only romantic scene in the game.

Naru: My friends and I all thought that Cloud might have been subjected to ijime (bullying) by Tifa and her friends when they were all little kids. So unless Cloud was into masochism (I hope not!), why would he like the girl who bullied him during the childhood? I think the whole problem lie in cultural difference and translation. Final Fantasy VII would not be the first one to face such problems. I was quite surprised to hear all these debates because people I know (myself included) just took it as a game and nothing more. Of course, some of my guy friends did say Tifa would make better girlfriend for Cloud than Aerith was because of the size of her chest *COUGH* (but we were only joking back then).

Perhaps Square Enix wanted to make this game a lot different from other RPG games. Therefore, they decided to throw in many symbolism and cultural messages in it. Unfortunately, for such symbolism to work, the viewers (players) should have to understood the mechanism very well or it would cause more confusion.

The Date Sequence

Aly: I've noticed that the Japanese game manual doesn't even mention the Love Triangle. My guess is that the options available to Cloud for the Date sequence was really intended by Square as something like an animated doujinshi for the amusement of the player, rather than an option of who Cloud actually loved. Do the Japanese see it that way?


Naru: When I first played that game, I was more into the plotline than the love stuff going on in the background. I just found it amusing when the dating thing popped up and commented, "it's so Tokimemo (Tokimeki Memorial, the pretty well known dating sim game)".

Well, majority of my guy friends were nicer to Tifa (for having huge chests); majority of my girl friends were nicer to Aerith; some went for Yuffie as well. So I think yes, I think of it as a personal preference thing from Square Enix, although the official couple was still Aerith and Cloud.

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Aly: So the Date sequence is there for the amusement of the player... right? The Japanese see the Date choices as an amusing and funny dating sim game that has nothing to do with who the official couple of the game is... correct?

Naru: Well, everybody know that the official couple of FFVII was Cloud and Aerith, FFVIII was Squall and Rinoa; on FFIX, it was Zidane and Garnet; on FFX, it was Tidus and Yuna. Yet, we see different pairings on doujin. Yes, we do know who official couples are; it is just that some of us might think that Tidus might have been better off with someone else. So hence the doujin came into play. It was equivalent to fanfics in Japanese society.

To me, the entire date choices were the inside joke. Dating simulation games were (and still are) popular in Japan. That was why the Thousand Arms was very funny because it featured mini dating simulation game in it. Imagine how funny it could be when FFVII threw in a joke like that.

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Aly: So it was meant as a joke?!? Americans believe that it is meant to show who Cloud loves!!!

Naru: Dating simulation game was (and still is) very popular genre in Japan. Even the porn games follow such format. So it was more like an inside joke/parady at Japanese culture.

The Highwind Scene-----
Aly: Was the scene where Cloud spends the night under the Highwind one of the conversations changed? It appears to be very different in the Japanese version of the game. From what you tell me, that scene was supposed to show that Cloud no longer had a crush on Tifa, but that his heart now belongs to Aerith. Is that one of changes that confused the consumers? Also, what is it supposed to mean when Aerith tells Cloud, "I want to meet... you" in the Date scene?

Naru: Direct translation would be a very bad idea because nine out of ten times, the conversations would not make sense. So instead, translators were encouraged to stay as close to the conversations represented in the original. So majority of times, translators would add words or come up with new sentences that would make sense in Western culture (which did make me laugh so much the other day when I saw the difference in FFX-2 ending FMV).

When I saw the Highwind scene, I always thought of it as that Tifa was going to confess her feelings to Cloud; however, Cloud was just not interested. I think Square Enix did confuse some people because they added the line, "... you" in the Lifestream scene (the one about where Tifa asked him if he remembered anything about her and he said Tifa was the reason why he joined the SOLDIER). When I played US version and saw the word 'you', I thought that maybe Cloud meant it as, "you and I lived next door, and you always ignored me. So I thought if I became stronger, you'd play with me!"

Ah, the infamous, 'I want to meet you'. I think maybe Square should have changed it to something else so it would make sense to players in US and Europe. Why they refused to change that one was beyond me. The most closest words in Western society to 'I want to meet you' would be, 'I want to be your girlfriend/boyfriend. Will you be please be my sweetheart?'.

-----

Aly: Wasn't the line that Tifa says in the Highwind scene about "Words aren't the only thing that tell what you're thinking" added to the scene by the translators? Tifa never said that in the original Japanese game, did she? That one line has greatly confused American players. Many NA players interpret that line to mean that Cloud went to bed with Tifa and fell in love with Tifa that night.

Naru: Funny, I do not remember seeing a line like that from JP version. Maybe in Japanese version, Tifa has spoke it a bit differently, but I do not remember seeing anything like that.

-----

Aly: So the dialogue is very different in the Japanese version than it is in the American version of the game. It is more as if Cloud and Tifa are simply coming to an understanding of one another. Any reactions or observations about this version from a Japanese perspective, Naru?


Naru: I did get a sense that Cloud was fond of Tifa on the high affectionate US version; but being fond of someone was different from being in love with someone, was not it? I daresay that Cloud was fond of Tifa as a teammate, but did not necessarily think of her as a girlfriend material.

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Aly: When Tifa says, "Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking", Cloud only says, ".......". He doesn't approach her, he doesn't touch her, and she's crying as she says it. He just looks at her and says, "......."

Now, "......." is used in FF VII in situations where the character is feeling uncomfortable in some way, usually irritated, aggravated, uncertain, and even angry. The only other time that it's used is when the player has a choice of responses next.

Naru: Yup, "......" is used in manga/anime during the situation when the person feels uncomfortable like embarrassment, irritation, surprise, annoyance, uncertainty, things like that. Anyways, unless you were raised in the opposite part, it kind of become hard to catch on at first. I replayed the Highwind Scene again to see what was so romantic about it. Maybe Tifa was in the mood or something, but as far as I could see, Cloud did not care at all.

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Aly: What did you think "........." was supposed to mean in Cloud's case? To me, it means that he is quite hesitant and unsure how to respond.

Naru: Personally, I thought of it as, 'OMG LADY OMG, GET A HOLD OF YOURSELF!'. j/k!!

I thought of his reaction as "but i never thought of you this way, Tifa."
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Aly: What gave you the impression that Cloud wasn't interested? There's a lot of things going on in that scene that most Americans don't really understand. From a Japanese perspective, Naru, why is Tifa embarrassed the next morning?

Naru: Tifa was confessing her feelings; yet the main hero was not seem to be interested at all. Knowing that Cloud has been bullied by her, why would he want to get with her in the first place? The way that she treated Cloud during the childhood did fit all the description of bullying in Japan (that's why I never liked Tifa or did not think that Cloud could be interested to her).

Well, if a girl confessed her feeling to a guy, then the guy outright ignored it, would not the girl get embarrassed? That was the impression I got even from the US version. In the JP version... well, it was true that Tifa did have some feeling for Cloud; however, again, the man was not interested in her at all.
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Aly: So the Japanese perspective of Cloud saying, "......." in response to Tifa's bit about "Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking" is that he's basically turning her down? From a Japanese perspective, Cloud would respond if he were interested... is that what you're saying?

Naru: Of course, it might not be a romantic response according to the western standard. But the guy would definitely respond if he was interested in pursuing a relationship with a girl; even if it was like a simple, 'h'n'.

Personally, I took his silence as, "yeah so, what about it? Words aren't the only thing to tell that I am in love with Aerith". My other girl friend took it as, ".... no... no way, Tifa" Please keep in mind that I translated what my friend and I thought to English. The original was in Japanese.
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Aly: Tifa gets embarrassed on board the Highwind the next morning because Cloud showed no interest after she confessed her feelings to him?

Naru: I always took it as Tifa got embarrassed because Cloud rejected her. She was trying to cover it up by saying how lonely it was in Highwind with just two of them there.

Cloud's Childhood

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Aly: So Cloud did not join SOLDIER for Tifa? Many Americans believe that Cloud joined SOLDIER out of his love for Tifa because he wanted her to be attracted to him. Are you saying that Cloud only wanted Tifa to become his friend as a child and nothing more? Is it clearly shown in the Japanese game that Cloud was ignored by Tifa as a child, and that he and Tifa were never close childhood friends?

Naru: To me, I think Cloud was a subject of ijime or bullying from Tifa and her friends. Kids never played with him and ignored him and that fit into the typical defintion of bullying in Japanese society.

In Japan, there is a saying that if you want to overcome getting bullied by other people, you will have to be stronger and show them you are not a weakling to the others. I think that's why Cloud wanted to join the SOLDIER. I always thought that Tifa started to pay more attention to Cloud after he left because she finally realized that she has been bullying him and felt guilt in her heart.
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Aly: And are you saying that... from a Japanese perspective... Tifa was actually bullying Cloud along with her friends in Nibelheim? What about this supposed crush that Cloud had on her as a child?

Naru: Yes, I believe Tifa was bullying Cloud along with her friends. Cloud did mention that they (Tifa and her friends) never invited Cloud to the games, or never bothered to hang out with him. Cloud has been downright ignored by them. Ijime happens a lot in Japan. The victim suffers from conditions like getting ignored or even beaten up or become a scape goat for things. I think all Cloud wanted was to have friends and be a normal kid, instead of getting ignored.
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Aly: I've always wondered why she would think of him after he left... it actually makes little sense. They weren't friends, they hardly knew one another... yet, she thinks about him while he was gone. If she didn't know him well, then she was imagining things about him while he was gone. She wasn't even thinking about the real Cloud... but what her imagination made him out to be.

Naru: After the accident at the Mt. Nibel, Cloud has told Tifa that he would be stronger and join the Soldier, right? I think it somehow surprised her (coming from a wimp kid whom she used to bullied on along with her friend). It somehow intrigued her interest on Cloud. Maybe she felt guilt for bullying him as well?

Was not Soldiers associated with power and being strong? Maybe Tifa wanted to be a girlfriend of someone strong and powerful as well, just like any teenage girls would want to be. Therefore, when Cloud shared his plan of joining the Soldier, it must have sparked her interest on him

Cloud's Grief----
Naru: In Japan, you are not allowed to cry out loud during the funeral (if you cry out loud, well, you are a weirdo and cannot control your emotion well).

Oh yes, just because Cloud has not been bawling his eyes out never automatically sums up that he does not care for Aerith at all. Will NA audiences like if even better if Cloud breaks down, sobbing like a girl? Please, his character is the stoic, cold guy, I have yet to see a cold guy doing that (in manga and anime and game wise, I mean). And guys are encouraged not to cry or show their emotion normally.

Cloud also chooses to grief inwardly. Again, that is how Japanese has been taught to grieve if the loved one passes away. You never ever attend a funeral and bawl your eyes not. That's like a taboo.

Cloud "What about us... what are WE supposed to do?"

Well, in JP version, that 'what about us, what are WE supposed to do?', has been pointing at Cloud and Aerith, the love two shared. The direct translation might have been, "what about you and I? What can be done now?'

(He gently rests her on the floor.)
Cloud "What about my pain?"
(He trembles.)
Cloud "My fingers are tingling. My mouth is dry. My eyes are burning!"

To be honest, I thought Cloud was speaking himself and Aerith while holding her close to him. I think the JP version spoke something pretty similar line; but the manner of his speech has been pretty intimate.
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Naru: It is funny how NA audiences think that Cloud has gotten rid of Aerith's memory that fast. If someone dear to you (like your friends, family members, lovers) died, will you be able to purge their memory that easily? I think not. If a person has been able to forget of someone that easily, then that means you never cared for that person to begin with. And if you are that kind of person, shows how much cruel you are deep inside.

I think the love requiring both spiritual and physical bond has been strongly influenced by Buddhism, though.

The Final FMV

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Aly: When Tifa says, "Yeah... let's go meet her", are you saying it means that Tifa has decided to let Cloud follow his heart and his love for Aerith while honoring Aerith's memory as a true friend?

Naru: Yes. I think that is the only option left for Tifa now. Cloud is never interested in her.

My brother, by the way, thought that the entire love triangle argument was kind of interesting. He did say though, (i quote) "okay, we got Aerith and Cloud looking at each other like lovers in the end of Kingdom Hearts. Find me a game that shows Tifa and Cloud looking at each other like that and I will buy Tifa x Cloud stuff."

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Naru: How did Tifa understand in the end? I just knew in the end, but I am going to try to put it as best as I can in English

Well, first of all, Cloud has not been showing any interest to her, and second of all, even when the two of them were clinging for their lives in the end, Cloud spoke of Aerith, not Tifa.

Odd isn't it? Will not normal reaction be, 'Tifa, I will get you out of here!' or something else, not, 'an answer from the planet... the promised land... I can meet her there...' I have been taught that during the brink of death, humans speak of the truth, or what they desire the most in their lives.

And the line 'an answer from the planet' associates itself with Aerith already. As we all know, Aerith has been the only surviving Cetra, the race that dedicated their entire lives on making the planet into a better place. Aerith has returned to the planet, meaning she is the part of the planet.
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Naru: In JP version, Cloud says (if I make a rough translation in English), "If it is that place, I can meet her." Now, depend on the context, the word place does not have to mean the physically existing realm. It can mean something else as well.

When I have seen Cloud trying to grasp the hand, I thought that Aerith is trying to tell him not to forget about her, the love they shared, and the bond still existing between them. Because as long as he does not severe the bond, she will always be with him, not physically, no, but in spiritual sense. I think maybe what Aerith wants to say was that she would always be with him (in spirit form) as long as he keep the memory of her.
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Naru: This is the way I interpreted the ending. Cloud stresses so many times through out the game that Aerith has not been forgotten. In fact, he even says that he can feel her presence too.

True, not being able to be together physically will hurt a lot; but like I have said, if the love is strong, then it shall surpass everything, even death or great distance between the two lovers. If Cloud never gives up, then he will find her, then he will be able to taste the supreme happiness.

I think that the bond itself emits great spiritual energy and power already because their love has surpassed the death. It is kind of funny, I always thought of Cloud almost found his own promised land during the ending FMV. In a way, I think Aerith herself is the representation of Promised Land.

I think Tifa finally understands in the end that he has no room for any other woman in his heart. She and Aerith happen to be friends, right? Friendship can form a strong bond as well, and if Tifa indeed cherishes Aerith as a true friend, then she will be able to find the Promised Land as well.

Shadow Spirit is a nikkei, or Japanese descendant, who has learned the culture of Japan from family members who were born and raised in Japan. Much of his education has been rooted in their cultural view. He is adept with the Japanese language, has played the Japanese version of FFVII, and visits Japanese forums. Here are Shadow Spirit's observations:

When Cloud says, "What about US? What are WE supposed to do?" in Aerith's death scene, the phrase is directed to Cloud and Aerith in a personal sense, almost like a talk between him and her. The language usage in this scene is painful, soft, and personal, instead of Cloud's usual rough manner of speech. Although that doesn't indicate love in and of itself, it's the only scene in the game where Cloud showed a soft side, so it's pretty much sure that Aerith was very important to him and much more than just a friend. Aerith is the only person who captured Cloud's attention like this in the game. Since your actions reveal who you love in Japan, then his feelings for Aerith are suggested in this scene.

- Ikebana is the art of tending fllowers. It's a special art that not every woman can do. The art means care, healing, and softness. The flower that is being worked on also defines the person's nature: yellow means light/compassion. White means softness/purity. Green means nature/happiness. Red/purple/pink means love. Aerith was a flower girl, and in Japan, "flower girls" would be women that know the art of ikebana.

- Ying/yang: in order for anything to work, you must have two opposite sides. Two persons with similar characteristics won't work out, but two complete opposites work very well. Cloud and Aerith were natural opposites in terms of colors, personality, strength and weakness (the four things that matter the most in symbolism).

- "What about US? What are WE suppposed to do?": The "us" in that line is NOT a reference to Cloud's party. It's more like a personal talk, where Cloud is speaking directly to Aerith, almost as if he wants to spend a moment alone with her. The Japanese game was quite clear about this.

- Aerith's parasol is a reference to Ai ai Gasa, which is a childhood game where you put your names under a parasol drawn on paper. It's a mark of love, similar to putting your names inside of a heart.

- Bodyguard: wanting to protect someone by free will in Japan is a mark of love. Usually, the stronger the bond is, the stronger the love is. Being a bodyguard is very strong, in my opinion. Being asked to protect someone doesn't mean love, but doing it of your own free will is

So this one girls opinion on how the game went through is supposed to represent all of Japans view on the game? No, doesnt work like that. Gotta have multiple views from a controlled group in order to have it even mean anything. One persons view cannot represent an entirety, even if they say it all pretty and try and use a different version of the game in their defense.