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From: davephx@primenet.com (Dave Hutchison)
Newsgroups:
Subject: Re: Is it ok with god if I am gay??
Date: 10 Dec 1995 16:36:22 -0700

Traditional Church teaching falsely misuses the Bible to judge the
homosexual lifestyle. True Biblical theology begins not with Church
tradition and dogma but with the biblical texts themselves. Biblical
theology seeks to understand how the biblical authors expressed themselves
in the Koine Greek of the time (not expanded by later modern Greek
meanings), in terms of their culture. Only with this understanding is it
legitimate to define biblical sexual ethics of the NT and find implications
for today.

There are only 4 scriptures that are taken to say anything about
homosexuality; the Leviticus laws, I Cor 6:9, Romans 1:26-27, and the story
of Sodom and Gomorrah - and none address loving, consenting homosexual acts
as we know them today, but rather the terrible unnatural, heterosexual acts
of pederasty.

The unclean acts of Leviticus makes no statement about the morality of
homosexual acts as such. In today's society similar unclean acts might
include picking ones nose, burping or passing gas. In Hebrew times wearing
polyester, or eating shellfish would have been just as much an abomination
as men laying with men. The law is no longer in effect and its purpose was
to show that man could never follow it. The sins of Sodom and Gomorrah,
have nothing to do with homosexuality.

I Cor 6:9, no way refers to homosexuality. The original Greek word often
quoted as sexual immorality, Paul used was "porneia" which means "a harlot
for hire". In Corinth in the temples of Venus, the principal deity of
Corinth, where Christians went to worship, a thousand public prostitutes
were kept at public expense to glorify and act as surrogates for the
fertility Gods. This sex with the pagan Gods is what Paul was talking
about - fornication is an admitted mistranslation and has nothing to do
with gays or singles sex. This rendering reflected the bias of the
translators rather than an accurate translation of Paul's words to a
culture of 2000 years ago worshipping pagan sex gods. I can also show the
errors of effeminate or homosexual reference in this verse.

Romans 1:26-27 mentions homosexual acts performed by people who are clearly
heterosexual. The men in the NT patriarchal culture exerted dominance not
only over women, but over younger males as well. The Greco-Roman practice
of pederasty was widespread and openly accepted. This was a bisexual
practice. The nature of homosexual acts in the Bible are so very different
from what we know as homosexuality today that the passages have no
application to today's homosexuality. Such practices as in NT times simply
no longer exist.

I can post more info on each of the passages. The condemnation of
homosexual love is one of the biggest lies and injustices of religion
making a living hell for many wonderful people whose only sin is simply
to be who God created them to be. The false teachings are the abomination,
not homosexuality. I have no personal agenda since I happened to be born
very heterosexual.

How does the Bible address Homosexuality when the word didn't even exist
until 1869? The word first appeared in Germany to describe the theory that
from birth some people are predisposed toward persons of the same sex.

Since the biblical languages (ancient Hebrew and Greek) had no words for
sexuality, heterosexual or homosexual, it is anachronistic and misleading
when homosexual is used to translate some biblical expression.

It is wrong to proclaim the biblical view of homosexuality since there is
none. This violates the integrity of the individual texts and the biblical
witness as a whole. Each reference or allusion to what is today
homosexuality must be read in the light of the particular literary,
cultural, and historic contexts of any particular passage.

A survey of the few passages that have been falsely translated as having to
do with homosexuality show their passage are addressing either the terrible
acts of pederasty or, cultic prostitution and have absolutely nothing to
say about homosexuality as we know it today.

To claim the scriptures say a word about "homosexuality" is a total lie and
abomination, not today's homosexuals who are simply created by God with
this natural sexual orientation that is no where addressed in scripture.

If Jesus ever said anything about homosexuality, it is not recorded in the
Bible, even mistranslated. He did, however, speak extensively on God's
unconditional love. Yet instead of dwelling on biblical love, Christians
have historically been more concerned with obscure passages of Levitical
cleanliness codes and Paul's misunderstood comments in Romans. Instead of
focusing on the incredible injustice and hatred demonstrated by Christians
and others, tying to deny homosexuals even basic civil rights, people
appear more concerned with the specific homosexual acts between consenting
adults who are naturally have a homosexual orientation. As James B. Nelson
notes, the Bible more clearly advocates a "love ethic" rather than a "sex
ethic."

Note: Why I am totally supportive of Christian homosexuality, I happen to be
extremely heterosexual. I can't help it, that's how I was born. I hardly
like hugging men! Liberated Christians in our newsletters and Fellowship
Groups does not deal with homosexual issues, but rather loving,
women-centered intimacy and Christian sexuality for heterosexual couples and
women. I say this to avoid all the wonderful gays and lesbians wanting our
info thinking we are homosexual oriented due to my support.

Dave, Liberated Christians, Phoenix Az
Teaching Positive Intimacy and Women Centered Sexuality
Exposing False Traditional Biblical Teachings
For Free Info request from davephx@primenet.com
Over 900 subscribers to our Free Internet Newsletter

Return to Gay:Religion
The Bibble Pages, Christian Molick, mollusk@bibble.org

Reply-To: conrad@nola.uu.holonet.net (Conrad Sabatier)
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 1994 02:51:02 GMT
Subject: Re: Fer Chrissakes

In article , Daniel J. Karnes (djk@TASP.NET) writes:
>
>I am amused my the way that you choose to ignore the stronger Biblical
>statements against your filth and then discount the more gentle ones
>of Paul. Disturbed? Ignored?
>
>What more should I expect from a f*****t.

And we find it quite amazing (well, not really; we're used to it
from you now) that you can ignore so much of the very book you use
to try to condemn us.

Job 20:4-5
4 Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth,
5 That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the
hypocrite but for a moment?

Job 27:4
4 My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit.

Job 27:8
8 For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained,
when God taketh away his soul?

Prov 11:9
9 An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through
knowledge shall the just be delivered.

Matt 7:1
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Luke 6:46
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Luke 6:31
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them
likewise.

Luke 6:36
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Matt 5:43-44
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour,
and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you,
do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully
use you, and persecute you;

Matt 19:19
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour
as thyself.

Matt 22:37-40
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Luke 6:27
27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them
which hate you,

John 13:34
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another;
as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Gal 5:14
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt
love thy neighbour as thyself.

Gal 5:25
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

1Thes 3:12
12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward
another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

1Thes 4:8
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath
also given unto us his holy Spirit.

1 Pet 2:17
17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

1 Pet 3:8
8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another,
love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

I Jn 3:11
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we
should love one another.

I Jn 3:14
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love
the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

I Jn 3:23
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of
his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us
commandment.

I Jn 4:7
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one
that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

I Jn 4:11
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

I Jn 4:12
12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God
dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

I Jn 4:16
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us.
God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and
God in him.

I Jn 4:20
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar:
for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he
love God whom he hath not seen?

Return to Gay:Religion
The Bibble Pages, Christian Molick, mollusk@bibble.org

From: davephx@primenet.com (Dave Hutchison)
Newsgroups:
Subject: Re: Where does which Bible condem Homosexuality?
Date: 14 Mar 1996 00:57:00 -0700

Summary of The New Testament and Homosexuality
by Robin Scroggs, professor of New Testament,
Union Theological Seminary, a happily married heterosexual
who has been acclaimed in many Christian publications for
his serious research about what the New Testament really
says about homosexuality.

Scroggs reason for his research was a discussion of
homosexuality by ministers. "I sat amazed as I heard the
Bible being invoked in ways that were wholly inappropriate
to any canons of biblical scholarship. Perhaps something
snapped in me...for better or worse I decided somebody
needed to provide resources that would give both clarity and
honesty." He says he has no personal interest but sees the
tragic results of false biblical scholarship and the tragic
rejections of homosexuals in the name of Christian
righteousness or even love. It is about time someone spoke
honestly about the issue, not just from emotional homophobic
assumptions of what the New Testament really says.

Conclusions: 1) The NT church was not very concerned about
homosexuality as a problem, All three instances referring
to homosexuality are from preformed traditions, either Greek
or Jewish. No single NT author considers the issue
important enough to write his own sentence about it! The
argument "against nature" is the most common form of attack
on pederasty in the Greco-Roman texts. Pederasty involved
forced male rape even by heterosexuals and slave boy
prostitutes. It says nothing about today's loving
homosexual relationships. Even in Romans 1, where Paul
integrates the illustration of homosexuality into his larger
theological arguments, there is no advance beyond idolatry
and pagan vices of 1 Cor 6:9.

2) Female homosexuality gets even less attention appearing
only in Romans 1, and here with less emphasis than male
homosexuality. This is doubtlessly because little was said
in the Greco-Roman world about lesbianism, and because in OT
law no penalties attached to such female practices. This
again suggest pederasty was the vice, not homosexuality in
general. In Romans 1 Paul's language "about male
homosexuality, must have had, could only have had, pederasty
in mind."

3) The two vice lists attack very specific forms of
pederasty, not homosexuality in general.

Scroggs concludes: "The basic model of today's Christian
homosexual community is so different from the model attacked
by the New Testament that the criterion of reasonable
similarity of context is not met. The conclusion I have to
draw seems inevitable: Biblical judgements against
homosexuality are not relevant to today's debate.. should in
no way be a weapon to justify refusal of ordination, not
because the Bible is not authoritative, but simply because
it does not address the issues involved". He concludes with
more discussion that pederasty was the issue of the biblical
texts, not today's homosexual relationships. This is just a
sample of one sincere Christian scholar who like many reach
the same conclusions regarding biblical truth, not just
traditional Church dogma.

Dave, Liberated Christians, Phoenix Az
Teaching Positive Intimacy and Women Centered Sexuality
Exposing False Traditional Biblical Teachings
For Free Info request from davephx@primenet.com
Over 1600 subscribers get our Free Internet Newsletter