|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:58 pm
Quote: Yes, I know about the experimentation phase. But that was not what I was talking about. I was talking about people who claim that they are gay and are not for reasons other than an actual belief that they are truely gay. I'm really confused. Quote: Personally, I believe that, in cases of abuse, you shouldn't get a divorce, you should get an annullment. Well, would you think divorcing an abusive spouse was sinful? Quote: Yet again, why should perfection entail omniscience. She didn't have to be all-knowing to know enough not to listen to the snake. God says don't eat of the tree. If God tells you to do something, as in face to face, you do it. It's human nature to do things like listen to the snake, but it is only in our nature because we're imperfect. A perfect person would made the right choice. That is the nature of perfection, it may not entail omniscience but it does entail flawlessness. Quote: how is it a double standard. Homosexual lust condemns a person and lying condemns a person. A heterosexual can fall in love, get married, and have sex with their spouse. And for a homosexual, this is sinful? It's a double standard. Quote: When He talked about treating others with respect and dignity. Words such as 'man' can be applied to either gender (and, in fact, it used to be) So? I don't consider this to be an absolute reference to the womens' rights and minority rights movements. Even a slave can be treated with respect and dignity. If there is anything referring to equality, then it can be applied to the gay rights movement as well.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:22 pm
Okay. I was comparing homosexuality to kleptomania. You suddenly started talking about people who just claim to be klepto to not get in as much trouble. Quote: Well, would you think divorcing an abusive spouse was sinful? No. Quote: She didn't have to be all-knowing to know enough not to listen to the snake. God says don't eat of the tree. If God tells you to do something, as in face to face, you do it. It's human nature to do things like listen to the snake, but it is only in our nature because we're imperfect. A perfect person would made the right choice. That is the nature of perfection, it may not entail omniscience but it does entail flawlessness. Stupidity isn't a sin. Eve was stupid. Quote: A heterosexual can fall in love, get married, and have sex with their spouse. And for a homosexual, this is sinful? It's a double standard. You're splitting up homosexuals and heterosexuals like they're two different species or something. I mean, personally, the fact that I don't have a real problem with (not) murdering people doesn't mean it's a double standard for those who are serial killers. Quote: So? I don't consider this to be an absolute reference to the womens' rights and minority rights movements. Even a slave can be treated with respect and dignity. Impossible. The moment you take away someone's freedom (barring proper reasoning to) you are demeaning them. Quote: If there is anything referring to equality, then it can be applied to the gay rights movement as well. Not really. I mean, yeah, it can be applied to the gay rights movement in that it condemns hatred of homosexuals or violence or discrimination against them. But it doesn't make homosexual lust any more acceptable in the eyes of God.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:11 pm
Quote: Okay. I was comparing homosexuality to kleptomania. You suddenly started talking about people who just claim to be klepto to not get in as much trouble. No way. That is totally not what happened. xd You said something about how people who experiment with homosexuality are sinning just as much as someone who is actually a homosexual, and then made a comparison to kleptomania, so I said that people don't experiment with kleptomania, and then you said you were talking about people who faked homosexuality, and then I went off into a random tangent about people who fake kleptomania. Or something like that, it was just a confusing mess. But the bible says that the only reason to divorce is adultery. I'm not trying to insult you, or your opinion, I'm just saying you don't follow everything in the bible. And I don't think remarriage is a sin. Quote: Stupidity isn't a sin. Eve was stupid. Well, stupidity is a flaw. So Eve wasn't perfect. Quote: You're splitting up homosexuals and heterosexuals like they're two different species or something. I mean, personally, the fact that I don't have a real problem with (not) murdering people doesn't mean it's a double standard for those who are serial killers. But you said it yourself, people who sin because of mental diseases (disorders, etc.) are shed of their mental problems when they die, and are forgiven by God. So, it is a double standard. Quote: Impossible. The moment you take away someone's freedom (barring proper reasoning to) you are demeaning them. So? Aren't gays being demeaned as well? Quote: Not really. I mean, yeah, it can be applied to the gay rights movement in that it condemns hatred of homosexuals or violence or discrimination against them. But it doesn't make homosexual lust any more acceptable in the eyes of God. Well it's not supposed to prove that homosexuality is not a sin, it's just supposed to mean that gay people should be supported more by society and they should have equal rights. That's all. I was going to say that it's different than blacks or women because you can't help being black or a woman because you're born that way, but that was both a slip and not a slip. I can't use it to argue you against you, because you don't think being a homosexual is a sin.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:49 pm
Captain_Theoretical Or something like that, it was just a confusing mess. yeah, let's just leave it at that. Quote: But the bible says that the only reason to divorce is adultery. I'm not trying to insult you, or your opinion, I'm just saying you don't follow everything in the bible. And I don't think remarriage is a sin. I specified earlier that abusive spouses don't warrent divorce, they warrent annullment. That distinction was lost on you, so I went to a more simplified version. Quote: Well, stupidity is a flaw. So Eve wasn't perfect. Stupidity isn't a flaw. Well, what I mean is that there is no biblical reason to believe that stupidity is a flaw. Quote: But you said it yourself, people who sin because of mental diseases (disorders, etc.) are shed of their mental problems when they die, and are forgiven by God. So, it is a double standard. Fine, I'll specify my prior statement. 'People who sin because of a mental illness that incapacitates their moral judgement are forgiven by God'. The fact that homosexuals retain their capacity for moral and abstract thought means that they are still bound to the Covenant. Quote: So? Aren't gays being demeaned as well? I never advocated taking away their freedom. In fact, I have said (in a convorsation to you, no less) that I will support the first bill that supports a religions right to be anti-homosexuality as well as a homosexuals rights to get married. This is a theocratic debate, not a political one. Quote: Well it's not supposed to prove that homosexuality is not a sin, it's just supposed to mean that gay people should be supported more by society and they should have equal rights. That's all. I was going to say that it's different than blacks or women because you can't help being black or a woman because you're born that way, but that was both a slip and not a slip. I can't use it to argue you against you, because you don't think being a homosexual is a sin. Heh, I believe that homosexuals, like all people, should be given equal rights and representation. I believe that violence against them is a sin and have no problem seeing fanatical bigots be prosecuted when their actions cross the line between freedom of speech and criminal action.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:26 pm
Quote: I specified earlier that abusive spouses don't warrent divorce, they warrent annullment. That distinction was lost on you, so I went to a more simplified version. My point was, do you think that there is any other reason to divorce besides adultery? Quote: Stupidity isn't a flaw. Well, what I mean is that there is no biblical reason to believe that stupidity is a flaw. Well, so you mean divine perfection? Quote: Fine, I'll specify my prior statement. 'People who sin because of a mental illness that incapacitates their moral judgement are forgiven by God'. The fact that homosexuals retain their capacity for moral and abstract thought means that they are still bound to the Covenant. My point was that straight people are perfectly fine in following their attractions (whatever, still going with other biblical rules) without it being a sin, but gay people are not. It is a double standard. Quote: I never advocated taking away their freedom. In fact, I have said (in a convorsation to you, no less) that I will support the first bill that supports a religions right to be anti-homosexuality as well as a homosexuals rights to get married. This is a theocratic debate, not a political one. I know you've said before you're all for gay marriage, but I was just countering this statement of yours: Quote: So God is limited by the time period in which people are in? Don't you think that, if God wanted homosexuals to eventually get marriage rights, He'dve wrote that in? And since you are for gay marriage, I'm not exactly sure what that was supposed to mean. Anyway, there doesn't need to be a bill that says that you can retain the right to believe homosexuality is a sin because we have religious freedom from the highest law of the US, the constitution. A bill that would try to strip away your right to believe something would be really unconstitutional. We can't even abolish the KKK or NAMBLA. You can believe whatever the hell you want to believe, but you can't treat people badly or deny them equal rights because of it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:56 pm
Captain_Theoretical My point was, do you think that there is any other reason to divorce besides adultery? No. Before you go on a nice little rant about this, remember that I believe that the only reason for divorce is adultry. Annulments are another issue. Quote: Well, so you mean divine perfection? What I mean is that lack of knowledge is not a sin. That would entail that everyone is constantly sinning, since none of us are omniscient. I believe, however, that a willful lack of knowledge is a sin.
Quote: My point was that straight people are perfectly fine in following their attractions (whatever, still going with other biblical rules) without it being a sin, but gay people are not. It is a double standard.
Normal people are perfectly fine in following their desires. Kleptomaniacs are not. It's a double standard.
Quote: I know you've said before you're all for gay marriage, but I was just countering this statement of yours: And since you are for gay marriage, I'm not exactly sure what that was supposed to mean.
I am for legal gay marriage. The United States was not, is not, and should not be a theocracy. Accordingly, banning gay marriage is unconstitutional.
Quote: Anyway, there doesn't need to be a bill that says that you can retain the right to believe homosexuality is a sin because we have religious freedom from the highest law of the US, the constitution.
Look at canada. Gay marriage gets legalized and a pastor gets in trouble for preachin that homosexuality is sinful. I want specific protection from that. Half-assed solutions only cause more problems.
Quote: A bill that would try to strip away your right to believe something would be really unconstitutional. We can't even abolish the KKK or NAMBLA. You can believe whatever the hell you want to believe, but you can't treat people badly or deny them equal rights because of it.
Suprisingly, our freedom of speech is slowly degrading. The reason why the KKK's or NAMBLA's rights haven't been infringed upon yet is simply because it's not their time. I believe, however, that it will happen eventually because, if for no other reason, it's already happened in other countries.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:57 pm
Quote: No. Before you go on a nice little rant about this, remember that I believe that the only reason for divorce is adultry. Annulments are another issue. Well, the bible doesn't really take a position on anullments. Quote: What I mean is that lack of knowledge is not a sin. That would entail that everyone is constantly sinning, since none of us are omniscient. I believe, however, that a willful lack of knowledge is a sin. Stupid is different than ignorant. And you can be ignorant about things because you just didn't know anything about them, and you can be ignorant about things because you refuse to accept the truth. I think you're saying that refusing to accept the truth is a sin. Did you mean that Eve was ignorant, or did you mean that she was stupid? Quote: Normal people are perfectly fine in following their desires. Kleptomaniacs are not. It's a double standard. Normal people don't have manias about not stealing. A kleptomaniac to a normal person is more like a homosexual to an asexual than a homosexual to a heterosexual. Quote: Look at canada. Gay marriage gets legalized and a pastor gets in trouble for preachin that homosexuality is sinful. I want specific protection from that. Half-assed solutions only cause more problems. Well you should have protection from that. We're supposed to be able to disagree with laws. Quote: Suprisingly, our freedom of speech is slowly degrading. The reason why the KKK's or NAMBLA's rights haven't been infringed upon yet is simply because it's not their time. I believe, however, that it will
happen eventually because, if for no other reason, it's already happened in other countries.Well, it's true but it's still illegal.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:47 pm
Captain_Theoretical Well, the bible doesn't really take a position on anullments. Pretty much. Quote: Stupid is different than ignorant. And you can be ignorant about things because you just didn't know anything about them, and you can be ignorant about things because you refuse to accept the truth. I think you're saying that refusing to accept the truth is a sin. Did you mean that Eve was ignorant, or did you mean that she was stupid? Didn't know. Quote: Normal people don't have manias about not stealing. A kleptomaniac to a normal person is more like a homosexual to an asexual than a homosexual to a heterosexual. Normal people have the desire to gain what is not theirs. That's why there's all those warnings about covetousness and greed. Quote: Well you should have protection from that. We're supposed to be able to disagree with laws. Yeah, but it's doubtful that, unless action is taken, we will be able to oppose this 'equality' movement much longer without being labeled as outlaws. Quote: Well, it's true but it's still illegal. It's illegal now.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:46 pm
Well my whole arguement about that is just about failed, so, yeah. Well, Eve's poor desicion making is beside the point. I don't think they were created perfect. Just because a bank has never been robbed doesn't mean it has perfect security. Quote: Normal people have the desire to gain what is not theirs. That's why there's all those warnings about covetousness and greed. Well then a kleptomaniac to a theif would be a homosexual to a lustful person who has sex with everyone, regardless of what gender they're attracted to. Quote: Yeah, but it's doubtful that, unless action is taken, we will be able to oppose this 'equality' movement much longer without being labeled as outlaws. Gay people should have equal rights, but that doesn't mean everyone has to agree with them. If you don't treat gay people badly just because they're gay, then they can't really infringe upon your beliefs. It's one thing to be a crazy extremist who shouts insults at gays, it's another thing to be respectful to gays just believe they're on the wrong track. I mean, it would just be like talking to an atheist. A Christian talking to an atheist isn't going to (or shouldn't, rather) bring up God all the time, insult that person, or as soon as they learn that they're an atheist disregard their feelings, personal space, and beliefs and try everything possible to convert them. It's just not the Christian thing to do. But if you're a preacher in a church and you quote the passage where Jesus says "No one comes to the father except through me" then no one should be able to tell you you're infringing on atheists' freedom of religion. Well hopefullly the citizens of the US of A are smart enough to prevent someone abusing their power to change that. Because no one would outright reccomend that we abolish that law, or alternatively, if they did they wouldn't get very far.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:36 pm
I haven't been following this thread all that much (actually, I don't think I've been following it all) but I'm just popping in to make sure you all are being civil to each other. Captain, I trust you'll keep everyone from killing each other. heart
|
|
|
|
|
|
High-functioning Businesswoman
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:19 pm
Quote: I haven't been following this thread all that much (actually, I don't think I've been following it all) but I'm just popping in to make sure you all are being civil to each other. Captain, I trust you'll keep everyone from killing each other. Well, it's basically just me and Cometh the Inquisitor. There are some moments where it gets heated, but that's usually because of one of is just tired and having a small outburst, or there's a misunderstanding. Though I doubt anyone is changing anyone's mind.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:12 am
Oh, okay. Well, if no one is getting across to anyone else, maybe the debate is pointless?
|
|
|
|
|
|
High-functioning Businesswoman
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:50 am
Quote: Oh, okay. Well, if no one is getting across to anyone else, maybe the debate is pointless? Well, I enjoy debating it. Excerizes my brain. xd
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:03 am
Even though you just keep repeating yourself? I would find that tedious. e.e As long as you guys are being nice to each other for the most part though, I'll let you keep this thread.
|
|
|
|
|
|
High-functioning Businesswoman
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:24 pm
Hey! Guess what! ALL HOMOSEXUAL ATTRACTIONS/TENDANCIES DO NOT EXIST IN ME! (Read the "I'm almost there" thread for more info) PRAISE THE LORD!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
