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 Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:36 am
Cometh The Inquisitor -Sunset Wahine- Silly because you don't believe in such a thing? No, because it is quite silly. I mean, if everyone automatically knew what God wanted, then we wouldn't really have much to debate about. The problem is that we don't know what God wants in individual situations most of hte time. I believe Christians should know what God wants, through their on personal relationship with Him. Sinners know nothing on sin because they don't believe in Christ.
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Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:49 pm
-Sunset Wahine- I believe Christians should know what God wants, through their on personal relationship with Him. Sinners know nothing on sin because they don't believe in Christ. and do are two very different concepts.
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Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:57 am
Cometh The Inquisitor -Sunset Wahine- I believe Christians should know what God wants, through their on personal relationship with Him. Sinners know nothing on sin because they don't believe in Christ. and do are two very different concepts. Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree with Cometh on this one. Because no one knows what God thinks or wants. Only God does.
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Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:05 am
-Sunset Wahine- Cometh The Inquisitor -Sunset Wahine- Silly because you don't believe in such a thing? No, because it is quite silly. I mean, if everyone automatically knew what God wanted, then we wouldn't really have much to debate about. The problem is that we don't know what God wants in individual situations most of hte time. I believe Christians should know what God wants, through their on personal relationship with Him. Sinners know nothing on sin because they don't believe in Christ. We're all sinners. Don't classify non-christians as the only people who sin.
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Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:50 am
Curium -Sunset Wahine- Cometh The Inquisitor -Sunset Wahine- Silly because you don't believe in such a thing? No, because it is quite silly. I mean, if everyone automatically knew what God wanted, then we wouldn't really have much to debate about. The problem is that we don't know what God wants in individual situations most of hte time. I believe Christians should know what God wants, through their on personal relationship with Him. Sinners know nothing on sin because they don't believe in Christ. We're all sinners. Don't classify non-christians as the only people who sin. We are all sinners, but being a Christian makes a difference because we know Jesus.
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Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:15 am
-Sunset Wahine- Curium -Sunset Wahine- Cometh The Inquisitor -Sunset Wahine- Silly because you don't believe in such a thing? No, because it is quite silly. I mean, if everyone automatically knew what God wanted, then we wouldn't really have much to debate about. The problem is that we don't know what God wants in individual situations most of hte time. I believe Christians should know what God wants, through their on personal relationship with Him. Sinners know nothing on sin because they don't believe in Christ. We're all sinners. Don't classify non-christians as the only people who sin. We are all sinners, but being a Christian makes a difference because we know Jesus. Yes, but you said Sinners don't know Jesus. Some do...because all people sin.
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Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:47 pm
Curium -Sunset Wahine- Curium -Sunset Wahine- Cometh The Inquisitor -Sunset Wahine- Silly because you don't believe in such a thing? No, because it is quite silly. I mean, if everyone automatically knew what God wanted, then we wouldn't really have much to debate about. The problem is that we don't know what God wants in individual situations most of hte time. I believe Christians should know what God wants, through their on personal relationship with Him. Sinners know nothing on sin because they don't believe in Christ. We're all sinners. Don't classify non-christians as the only people who sin. We are all sinners, but being a Christian makes a difference because we know Jesus. Yes, but you said Sinners don't know Jesus. Some do...because all people sin. Christians sin as we all come short of the glory of God, but we know what is a sin and what isn't because of how we know Jesus. The sinner I'm talking about is one who rejects Jesus and His forgiveness.
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Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:00 am
Another thing, God wants us to take action in LOVE. Aborting a baby would be almost opposite.
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Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:52 pm
zz1000zz Elliot Reilly McMonty Matthew 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgement.' Life is life, no matter how small or underdeveloped. To end a life is murder. Abortion is cruel, for it involves a mother sacrificing a child's life so as to make her own a bit easier. Because the child didn't willingly sacrifice itself, the mother has commited murder. This is not true as the Bible never says a fetus is a human. Unless god specifically forbids something, you as a human have no right to claim it is a sin. so definition is all that matters? ignore words, they only hinder the mind and soul. think instead of the actions, the beings, as visual items. the image of a fetus, no classification, not human, not inhuman, just what it is, just the image. now, the means of it's creation. ignore the true or half-true whispers of "I love you", ignore the words. see the act of sex, see the sperm flow to the egg, the egg grow into a hominid form, with fingers being developed, a small brain, a beating heart. see it, do not sense the words. now, this item is ensnared by forceps, it is torn apart by suction. is this right? seeing it all as it is, as an image, as the action. ignoring wording, ignoring technical definitions of personhood, ignoring medical definitions which change on the whim of man, is what you see in your mind acceptable?
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Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:54 pm
divineseraph zz1000zz Elliot Reilly McMonty Matthew 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgement.' Life is life, no matter how small or underdeveloped. To end a life is murder. Abortion is cruel, for it involves a mother sacrificing a child's life so as to make her own a bit easier. Because the child didn't willingly sacrifice itself, the mother has commited murder. This is not true as the Bible never says a fetus is a human. Unless god specifically forbids something, you as a human have no right to claim it is a sin. so definition is all that matters? ignore words, they only hinder the mind and soul. think instead of the actions, the beings, as visual items. the image of a fetus, no classification, not human, not inhuman, just what it is, just the image. now, the means of it's creation. ignore the true or half-true whispers of "I love you", ignore the words. see the act of sex, see the sperm flow to the egg, the egg grow into a hominid form, with fingers being developed, a small brain, a beating heart. see it, do not sense the words. now, this item is ensnared by forceps, it is torn apart by suction. is this right? seeing it all as it is, as an image, as the action. ignoring wording, ignoring technical definitions of personhood, ignoring medical definitions which change on the whim of man, is what you see in your mind acceptable? What i decide is "acceptable" does not matter. An action, no matter how hideous, is not a condemnable offense unless it is a sin. God decides what is and is not a sin. God has not said abortion is a sin. Therefore, christians have no right to condemn abortion.
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:18 pm
you hear, but you do not listen. what a lovely excuse to fall back on- God doesn't specifically condemn it, so it must be fine"
this logic is lazy bullshit, that's all it is. it's not even coming up with a valid excuse, it's the opposite- it's looking for a way of not having to think.
eating pig is a sin. you enjoy ham? burn in hell, sinner.
you want to kill your child for convenience? nothing about that specifically, so it's A-ok.
think for yourself. people like you, who use the bible as an excuse to not think, are the types who make logical christians look bad.
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:14 pm
I'll admit that the Bible deals VERY little with the sin of abortion, I would venture a congecture that this is mainly due to the fact that it simply wasn't done in those days. People really wouldn't have questioned the wrongness of murdering an unborn child. "abortion" didn't exist insofar as we can tell (it is not mentioned in the Bible good or bad). However, there is no way one could have the slightest understanding of God and claim He would wholheartedly condone it. Does He not love children? The Bible doesn't address the "humanity" of feti because such a word or concept didn't exist, that would be like complaining that Moses didn't address the difference beween the temporal lobe and the occipital lobe. As to abortion, it is deald with somewhat indirectly in this passage from Exodus 21:22: "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she has a miscarriage but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows."
Acts 7:19 deals with the general feeling on infanticide, "[Pharaoh] dealt treacherously with our people and oppressed our forefathers by forcing them to throw out their newborn babies so that they would die."
As to finding evidence in the Bible of God's feelings towards homosexuality, one need only read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. It is also mentioned elsewhere. 1 Timothy 1:8-11, "Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted."
1 Corinthians 6:9- "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality"
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:26 pm
divineseraph you hear, but you do not listen. what a lovely excuse to fall back on- God doesn't specifically condemn it, so it must be fine" this logic is lazy bullshit, that's all it is. it's not even coming up with a valid excuse, it's the opposite- it's looking for a way of not having to think. eating pig is a sin. you enjoy ham? burn in hell, sinner. you want to kill your child for convenience? nothing about that specifically, so it's A-ok. think for yourself. people like you, who use the bible as an excuse to not think, are the types who make logical christians look bad. ... Where did the pig thing come from? For you information, as a non-Jew (assuming, of course that you're not Jewish) you are not compelled to follow the "kosier" laws. I learned this while talking with a rabbi in my area; he said that many of the old testament laws (and there are hundreds of them) are directed solely towards Jews. The dietary laws are among these. i.e. as Gentiles eating pork is in no way a sin. While I agree with you that ZZ's argument was a gross oversimplification of a complicated issue, as well as your last few lines, your manner of contesting this is completely uncalledfor. Such hostility towards your fellow man makes compassionate Christians look bad.
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:36 pm
zz1000zz What i decide is "acceptable" does not matter. An action, no matter how hideous, is not a condemnable offense unless it is a sin. God decides what is and is not a sin. God has not said abortion is a sin. Therefore, christians have no right to condemn abortion. Your argument is entirely fallacious. God also never speaks out against putting a bullet in someone's head, but it is still a sin. Simply because people invent new sins that aren't mentioned by name in the Bible does not make them ok. Any act which involves the taking of an innocent life is covered by the Ten Commandments. Can you, with clear concience, say "God is fine with killing unborn children." I word it this way because Bible text would use the term "unborn children" since the word for "fetus" did not exist, any prenatal human would be an "unborn child." You may feel more comfortable using "abortion" since it bears a more abstract meaning; representing in many people's minds an idea rather than an action. This, however, is merely hiding behind the language to obscure the truth, similar to using a euphemism.
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:15 pm
Jocken zz1000zz What i decide is "acceptable" does not matter. An action, no matter how hideous, is not a condemnable offense unless it is a sin. God decides what is and is not a sin. God has not said abortion is a sin. Therefore, christians have no right to condemn abortion. Your argument is entirely fallacious. God also never speaks out against putting a bullet in someone's head, but it is still a sin. Simply because people invent new sins that aren't mentioned by name in the Bible does not make them ok. Any act which involves the taking of an innocent life is covered by the Ten Commandments. Can you, with clear concience, say "God is fine with killing unborn children." I word it this way because Bible text would use the term "unborn children" since the word for "fetus" did not exist, any prenatal human would be an "unborn child." You may feel more comfortable using "abortion" since it bears a more abstract meaning; representing in many people's minds an idea rather than an action. This, however, is merely hiding behind the language to obscure the truth, similar to using a euphemism. First, shooting someone in the head as that is murder, which god condemned. However, the bible never gives any indication an unborn child is considered a human for matters of this sort. Indeed, one passage you mentioned implies the opposite (as i stated earlier in this topic). Exodus 21:22: If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she has a miscarriage but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. Now let us look at the next few verses. Exodus 21:23-25 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. The baby's death causes a fine while the woman's injury causes more severe punishment. This implies the unborn child's life is not considered the same. Onto the issue of homosexuality. First, the translation of 1 Corinthians 6:9 is unclear, and there is little reason for it to include homosexuality. Indeed, the same is true of the passage from 1 Timothy you quoted. (For example, the NIV does not list homosexuality while the KJV does.) There is no clear condemnation of homosexuality upon which we can base beliefs. Each passage that may condemn homosexuality can be brought into question as being a ceremonial law (which no longer applies) or as poor translation.
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