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 Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:31 pm
I don't know if this will help or who it will help but most versions of Christianity subscribe to distinction regarding God and creation and characterized by one of two views.
1. God is completely distinct from the Universe since God is of a substance and form not found in our realm of existence.
or
2. Panentheism (not pantheism), or in summary, God is in everything but not everything is God.
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:34 pm
rmcdra I don't know if this will help or who it will help but most versions of Christianity subscribe to distinction regarding God and creation and characterized by one of two views. 1. God is completely distinct from the Universe since God is of a substance and form not found in our realm of existence. or 2. Panentheism (not pantheism), or in summary, God is in everything but not everything is God.
2. That just seems like a Paradox. X___x
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:45 pm
Captain_Shinzo rmcdra I don't know if this will help or who it will help but most versions of Christianity subscribe to distinction regarding God and creation and characterized by one of two views. 1. God is completely distinct from the Universe since God is of a substance and form not found in our realm of existence. or 2. Panentheism (not pantheism), or in summary, God is in everything but not everything is God.
2. That just seems like a Paradox. X___xHow's it make Him not omnipotent? Why does He have to be in everything to be all-powerful?
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:49 pm
xxEternallyBluexx Captain_Shinzo rmcdra I don't know if this will help or who it will help but most versions of Christianity subscribe to distinction regarding God and creation and characterized by one of two views. 1. God is completely distinct from the Universe since God is of a substance and form not found in our realm of existence. or 2. Panentheism (not pantheism), or in summary, God is in everything but not everything is God.
2. That just seems like a Paradox. X___xHow's it make Him not omnipotent? Why does He have to be in everything to be all-powerful?
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:54 pm
Captain_Shinzo xxEternallyBluexx Captain_Shinzo xxEternallyBluexx Captain_Shinzo xxEternallyBluexx >< I get it now, but I disagree. I believe God is all-knowing, because that's what it says in the Bible. I have very little reason not to believe the Bible, and very good reason to believe the Bible. If He knows all, then it's obvious He's understand things we can't. Plus, just the fact He's a different, and we must assume, more powerful being (because most gods/and my God are more powerful), means that He understands things differently, and probrably better then we do. No, it's actually their brains learn at a faster rate. They have an easier time learning languages, and you can even teach them to read. It's got nothing to do with how much head space is filled, because human brains are built not to grow larger, but to develop more folds and make more connections between nuerons when large amounts of info are processed. It's got nothing to do with that. He just understands everything because He created it all. Trying to understand all that God knows is like trying to teach an ant algebra. It's not because He has more value. It's because we weren't made in a way so that we could comprehend everything at once. I don't really understand why you think we can. confused You'd be far over-extending yourself to try. It's like you saying you can't see why we can't live forever. Our bodies just won't.
Of course he knows it then. If he created it, he is bound to already understand it. Doesn't mean we can't learn to understand it.
That is not my point...
My point is JUST because he is a deity does not mean he can understand things we can't. You can't just assume we can't understand something that he could. I don't see why you think we couldn't. :S
It is more complex than that. It has to deal with cell age and reproduction. However, I have heard of immortal cells, cells that continuously multiply. This is a small step to immortality and making us like longer, not sure how long exactly.
Pretty much, you can't just simplify something into a statement. Our bodies die and we fully know why as well. We grew to understand that.
I don't know how to explain it then. There's no rule that says humans have the ability to understand everything though. We can understand some of it, but there's no reason to expect to understand it all. There are some things we both understand, like I'm sure he knows 2+2=4, and our moral code that says don't kill other people was created by Him. There's just no reason to expect to understand EVERYTHING. I know about that (I believe it has to do with mitochondria[sp?]), but I'm pretty sure Jesus is coming back before we figure it out. We're not meant to live forever. It's an example. Yes, we understand why our bodies die, but that doesn't mean we can put a stop to death. The point was that human brains have their limits, and people don't have the ability to know everything.
1. Technology is slowly helping us compile information. It is getting more and more possible.
2. Who knows. The mind is slowly growing in today's society. There isn't exactly a limit when it comes to knowledge. It's not like it is infinite.
But why don't we have the ability to know everything? That is what I'm getting at. If it exists, we should be able to process it. It isn't like there is this boundary line where our brain just stops all new information.We don't have the time to learn everything, and your mind discards things all the time that it doesn't think you need to know. Plus we don't have the senses to process everything that could possibly be processed, or the ability to be everywhere at once to process. God's outside of time, so He has all the time He needs (it's why He can focus on us all individually), and His mind can store it all without forgetting, and He can sense whatever He needs to. He's not limited, and we are, which is why He gets to know everything and we don't.
XD It's like we are making the greatest being ever, just thinking about it. Let's give him laser eyes, too. But I'm not talking about knowing everything, I mean knowing things he knows. It's not like, as I said, there is a boundary line. Our minds slowly progress and listing a common flaw will not disregard the fact that progression will continue to happen.
and again, this is if God IS perfect. If.
and, as I said, yes, our minds can forget things. However, that is why we have history, something to record it with. THAT can not just be erased so easily.
Here is one problem however I noticed you said, did you just state that God is omnipotent AND outside of time? ._____.
Being outside of time means being outside the universe.
( We will ignore time being a concept for the moment.)
If God is omnipotent, he can't be outside the universe.
EDIT: We don't have time? We have plenty of time.Time has a beginning. He can be outside of time, especially if He's existed forever. He can have laser eyes if we wants them *sarcasm completely lost on me* Ok...I just said we can know things He knows, and I also said He knows everything, so what are you asking? We still can't record every little moment. He knows every single moment. What's being all-powerful have to do with existing outside of time? Do you mean all-present? Anyway, I think it's two realms, one on top of the other, and the one He exists in is not temporal the way ours is. Lewis kinda explains it in Mere Christianity, and I just can't seem to put it down right. gonk Time enough to learn everything?
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:04 pm
Captain_Shinzo 1. So...that doesn't make him omnipotent then. Seems slightly flawed. Not seeing why. Would you care to elaborate? Quote: 2. That just seems like a Paradox. X___x Not necessarily. Water exist in all living things but not everything alive is water.
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:07 pm
xxEternallyBluexx Captain_Shinzo xxEternallyBluexx Captain_Shinzo xxEternallyBluexx I don't know how to explain it then. There's no rule that says humans have the ability to understand everything though. We can understand some of it, but there's no reason to expect to understand it all. There are some things we both understand, like I'm sure he knows 2+2=4, and our moral code that says don't kill other people was created by Him. There's just no reason to expect to understand EVERYTHING. I know about that (I believe it has to do with mitochondria[sp?]), but I'm pretty sure Jesus is coming back before we figure it out. We're not meant to live forever. It's an example. Yes, we understand why our bodies die, but that doesn't mean we can put a stop to death. The point was that human brains have their limits, and people don't have the ability to know everything.
1. Technology is slowly helping us compile information. It is getting more and more possible.
2. Who knows. The mind is slowly growing in today's society. There isn't exactly a limit when it comes to knowledge. It's not like it is infinite.
But why don't we have the ability to know everything? That is what I'm getting at. If it exists, we should be able to process it. It isn't like there is this boundary line where our brain just stops all new information.We don't have the time to learn everything, and your mind discards things all the time that it doesn't think you need to know. Plus we don't have the senses to process everything that could possibly be processed, or the ability to be everywhere at once to process. God's outside of time, so He has all the time He needs (it's why He can focus on us all individually), and His mind can store it all without forgetting, and He can sense whatever He needs to. He's not limited, and we are, which is why He gets to know everything and we don't.
XD It's like we are making the greatest being ever, just thinking about it. Let's give him laser eyes, too. But I'm not talking about knowing everything, I mean knowing things he knows. It's not like, as I said, there is a boundary line. Our minds slowly progress and listing a common flaw will not disregard the fact that progression will continue to happen.
and again, this is if God IS perfect. If.
and, as I said, yes, our minds can forget things. However, that is why we have history, something to record it with. THAT can not just be erased so easily.
Here is one problem however I noticed you said, did you just state that God is omnipotent AND outside of time? ._____.
Being outside of time means being outside the universe.
( We will ignore time being a concept for the moment.)
If God is omnipotent, he can't be outside the universe.
EDIT: We don't have time? We have plenty of time.Time has a beginning. He can be outside of time, especially if He's existed forever. He can have laser eyes if we wants them *sarcasm completely lost on me* Ok...I just said we can know things He knows, and I also said He knows everything, so what are you asking? We still can't record every little moment. He knows every single moment. What's being all-powerful have to do with existing outside of time? Do you mean all-present? Anyway, I think it's two realms, one on top of the other, and the one He exists in is not temporal the way ours is. Lewis kinda explains it in Mere Christianity, and I just can't seem to put it down right. gonk Time enough to learn everything?
You can't be out of something that doesn't exactly exist. :
Now if we go to him existing outside the universe, that means he can't exactly be omnipotent since he isn't omnipresent I suppose.
Omnipresence is all-present, yes. If your Omnipotent, you are usually also omnipresent. However, you mentioned there was another realm outside of this realm. That would also have to be included as the Universe, then, so he would still be in the universe.
You argued that we could not know what he knew because it was out of our understanding. I'm arguing that there is no evidence that is isn't out of our understanding.
Well, time is a concept but there doesn't seem to ever be an end. So...we have loads of time. Unless you believe in the rapture that is, although I wouldn't like to include that.
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:14 pm
rmcdra Captain_Shinzo 1. So...that doesn't make him omnipotent then. Seems slightly flawed. Not seeing why. Would you care to elaborate? Quote: 2. That just seems like a Paradox. X___x Not necessarily. Water exist in all living things but not everything alive is water.
2. But than that would make God omnipotent, but also the ideal term for matter. Not to mention if we go to this belief, I don't see why anyone wouldn't believe in this if Christian.
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:19 pm
Captain_Shinzo xxEternallyBluexx Captain_Shinzo xxEternallyBluexx Captain_Shinzo xxEternallyBluexx I don't know how to explain it then. There's no rule that says humans have the ability to understand everything though. We can understand some of it, but there's no reason to expect to understand it all. There are some things we both understand, like I'm sure he knows 2+2=4, and our moral code that says don't kill other people was created by Him. There's just no reason to expect to understand EVERYTHING. I know about that (I believe it has to do with mitochondria[sp?]), but I'm pretty sure Jesus is coming back before we figure it out. We're not meant to live forever. It's an example. Yes, we understand why our bodies die, but that doesn't mean we can put a stop to death. The point was that human brains have their limits, and people don't have the ability to know everything.
1. Technology is slowly helping us compile information. It is getting more and more possible.
2. Who knows. The mind is slowly growing in today's society. There isn't exactly a limit when it comes to knowledge. It's not like it is infinite.
But why don't we have the ability to know everything? That is what I'm getting at. If it exists, we should be able to process it. It isn't like there is this boundary line where our brain just stops all new information.We don't have the time to learn everything, and your mind discards things all the time that it doesn't think you need to know. Plus we don't have the senses to process everything that could possibly be processed, or the ability to be everywhere at once to process. God's outside of time, so He has all the time He needs (it's why He can focus on us all individually), and His mind can store it all without forgetting, and He can sense whatever He needs to. He's not limited, and we are, which is why He gets to know everything and we don't.
XD It's like we are making the greatest being ever, just thinking about it. Let's give him laser eyes, too. But I'm not talking about knowing everything, I mean knowing things he knows. It's not like, as I said, there is a boundary line. Our minds slowly progress and listing a common flaw will not disregard the fact that progression will continue to happen.
and again, this is if God IS perfect. If.
and, as I said, yes, our minds can forget things. However, that is why we have history, something to record it with. THAT can not just be erased so easily.
Here is one problem however I noticed you said, did you just state that God is omnipotent AND outside of time? ._____.
Being outside of time means being outside the universe.
( We will ignore time being a concept for the moment.)
If God is omnipotent, he can't be outside the universe.
EDIT: We don't have time? We have plenty of time.Time has a beginning. He can be outside of time, especially if He's existed forever. He can have laser eyes if we wants them *sarcasm completely lost on me* Ok...I just said we can know things He knows, and I also said He knows everything, so what are you asking? We still can't record every little moment. He knows every single moment. What's being all-powerful have to do with existing outside of time? Do you mean all-present? Anyway, I think it's two realms, one on top of the other, and the one He exists in is not temporal the way ours is. Lewis kinda explains it in Mere Christianity, and I just can't seem to put it down right. gonk Time enough to learn everything?
You can't be out of something that doesn't exactly exist. :
Now if we go to him existing outside the universe, that means he can't exactly be omnipotent since he isn't omnipresent I suppose.
Omnipresence is all-present, yes. If your Omnipotent, you are usually also omnipresent. However, you mentioned there was another realm outside of this realm. That would also have to be included as the Universe, then, so he would still be in the universe.
You argued that we could not know what he knew because it was out of our understanding. I'm arguing that there is no evidence that is isn't out of our understanding.
Well, time is a concept but there doesn't seem to ever be an end. So...we have loads of time. Unless you believe in the rapture that is, although I wouldn't like to include that.Why not? And omnipresence =/= omnipotence, btw. No, it wouldn't, at least not as we know it. Besides, I really don't want to get into that because I don't have anything except my mouth to shoot off for this one. I'm arguing that we can't know everything He knows, and that there's no reason to expect evidence. We don't have loads, because we die. And unless we had an infinite amount, it still wouldn't be enough to learn everything. And I do believe the world is gonna end soon, but what's that got to do with anything?
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:35 pm
Captain_Shinzo Omnipotence usually also goes with Omnipresence. You can't be one without the other from my understanding. Fair enough. Since I don't agree with stance 1, I'll leave that open for someone more well versed in it to argue for it. Quote: 2. But than that would make God omnipotent, but also the ideal term for matter. Not to mention if we go to this belief, I don't see why anyone wouldn't believe in this if Christian. Some Christian denominations reject 2. because such a stance implies such things as inward divinity, the possibility of theosis, and the possibility of transubstantiation.
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:41 pm
xxEternallyBluexx Captain_Shinzo xxEternallyBluexx Captain_Shinzo xxEternallyBluexx We don't have the time to learn everything, and your mind discards things all the time that it doesn't think you need to know. Plus we don't have the senses to process everything that could possibly be processed, or the ability to be everywhere at once to process. God's outside of time, so He has all the time He needs (it's why He can focus on us all individually), and His mind can store it all without forgetting, and He can sense whatever He needs to. He's not limited, and we are, which is why He gets to know everything and we don't.
XD It's like we are making the greatest being ever, just thinking about it. Let's give him laser eyes, too. But I'm not talking about knowing everything, I mean knowing things he knows. It's not like, as I said, there is a boundary line. Our minds slowly progress and listing a common flaw will not disregard the fact that progression will continue to happen.
and again, this is if God IS perfect. If.
and, as I said, yes, our minds can forget things. However, that is why we have history, something to record it with. THAT can not just be erased so easily.
Here is one problem however I noticed you said, did you just state that God is omnipotent AND outside of time? ._____.
Being outside of time means being outside the universe.
( We will ignore time being a concept for the moment.)
If God is omnipotent, he can't be outside the universe.
EDIT: We don't have time? We have plenty of time.Time has a beginning. He can be outside of time, especially if He's existed forever. He can have laser eyes if we wants them *sarcasm completely lost on me* Ok...I just said we can know things He knows, and I also said He knows everything, so what are you asking? We still can't record every little moment. He knows every single moment. What's being all-powerful have to do with existing outside of time? Do you mean all-present? Anyway, I think it's two realms, one on top of the other, and the one He exists in is not temporal the way ours is. Lewis kinda explains it in Mere Christianity, and I just can't seem to put it down right. gonk Time enough to learn everything?
You can't be out of something that doesn't exactly exist. :
Now if we go to him existing outside the universe, that means he can't exactly be omnipotent since he isn't omnipresent I suppose.
Omnipresence is all-present, yes. If your Omnipotent, you are usually also omnipresent. However, you mentioned there was another realm outside of this realm. That would also have to be included as the Universe, then, so he would still be in the universe.
You argued that we could not know what he knew because it was out of our understanding. I'm arguing that there is no evidence that is isn't out of our understanding.
Well, time is a concept but there doesn't seem to ever be an end. So...we have loads of time. Unless you believe in the rapture that is, although I wouldn't like to include that.Why not? And omnipresence =/= omnipotence, btw. No, it wouldn't, at least not as we know it. Besides, I really don't want to get into that because I don't have anything except my mouth to shoot off for this one. I'm arguing that we can't know everything He knows, and that there's no reason to expect evidence. We don't have loads, because we die. And unless we had an infinite amount, it still wouldn't be enough to learn everything. And I do believe the world is gonna end soon, but what's that got to do with anything?
I know they aren't the same. =__= I'm saying, if something is omnipotent, then it must also be omnipresent. Omnipotence is related to omnipresence as to how it was made. Omnipotent beings are also omnipresent because of the entire meaning to omnipotent. Not just "all-powerful" but a lot more is there.
and why is that? That is the problem I am getting at. >.<
I meant the human race itself.
We aren't talking about knowing everything, but the basic and important knowings of God. Why is it that we can't know that? :
It is not impossible to learn everything. Maybe for one person, yes, but we are talking an entire race itself.
I was just relating the world might live longer than almost being destroyed like what the crappy Mayan Calender 2012 states.
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:43 pm
rmcdra Captain_Shinzo Omnipotence usually also goes with Omnipresence. You can't be one without the other from my understanding. Fair enough. Since I don't agree with stance 1, I'll leave that open for someone more well versed in it to argue for it. Quote: 2. But than that would make God omnipotent, but also the ideal term for matter. Not to mention if we go to this belief, I don't see why anyone wouldn't believe in this if Christian. Some Christian denominations reject 2. because such a stance implies such things as inward divinity, the possibility of theosis, and the possibility of transubstantiation. It seems to actually go into another belief, more of an Atheistic belief.
It is saying God is imaged as everything but not everything itself.
The concept was that God was a metaphor for life and was created to show the living currently.
Like if someone said God is in everyone, they speak of the kindness we want God to be.
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Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:20 am
Captain_Shinzo It seems to actually go into another belief, more of an Atheistic belief.
It is saying God is imaged as everything but not everything itself.
The concept was that God was a metaphor for life and was created to show the living currently.
Like if someone said God is in everyone, they speak of the kindness we want God to be. That doesn't seem to far off from a quote from one of my scriptures. Gospel of Phillip Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way. There is a rebirth and an image of rebirth. It is certainly necessary to be born again through the image. Which one? Resurrection. The image must rise again through the image. The bridal chamber and the image must enter through the image into the truth: this is the restoration. There is a more "fitting" quote than this one but I'm having trouble finding it.
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Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:22 am
rmcdra Captain_Shinzo It seems to actually go into another belief, more of an Atheistic belief.
It is saying God is imaged as everything but not everything itself.
The concept was that God was a metaphor for life and was created to show the living currently.
Like if someone said God is in everyone, they speak of the kindness we want God to be. That doesn't seem to far off from a quote from one of my scriptures. Gospel of Phillip Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way. There is a rebirth and an image of rebirth. It is certainly necessary to be born again through the image. Which one? Resurrection. The image must rise again through the image. The bridal chamber and the image must enter through the image into the truth: this is the restoration.
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Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:29 am
Captain_Shinzo rmcdra Captain_Shinzo Omnipotence usually also goes with Omnipresence. You can't be one without the other from my understanding. Fair enough. Since I don't agree with stance 1, I'll leave that open for someone more well versed in it to argue for it. Quote: 2. But than that would make God omnipotent, but also the ideal term for matter. Not to mention if we go to this belief, I don't see why anyone wouldn't believe in this if Christian. Some Christian denominations reject 2. because such a stance implies such things as inward divinity, the possibility of theosis, and the possibility of transubstantiation.
It is saying God is imaged as everything but not everything itself.
The concept was that God was a metaphor for life and was created to show the living currently.
Like if someone said God is in everyone, they speak of the kindness we want God to be.Unless it is literal and refers to subtle force, soulstuff and energy. It goes like this- God-Soul-Energy-Matter. We have all parts but God, but all parts came from God. It is like how a child is half of each parent, genetically. Though it came from them, it is not them. While it was literally made through their bodies, of their bodies, it is not them. It's late, so I probably said this badly.
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