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Naw Kyle, Bruce is a better H2H fighter was my point, not that he'd be able to win in non super speed, just that he was obviously the better of the pair in H2H. Heat vision? Superman's boyscout side kept him from employing heat vision in the fight against bats once in the tunnels because batman lied about there being a flammable gas in the tunnels that would kill a lot of people that Ivy hadn't ordered dead. He DID use heat vision against batman in that fight, and for all of his vaunted ocular skills, he missed.
Is superman smarter then batman? I don't think so, and I don't see any evidence supporting him being any brighter. They might just be the same intelligence, but it wouldn't matter because it'd come down to wits, and that's where batman has superman. He's more clever, more devious, and meaner spirited then the boyscout will EVER be.
Detective skills? Hey how about next we argue wich one can write there name cleaner in the snow. I vote Batman.
You asked for speculation when you started the thread, go back and edit it if you don't want it now. Black and Gold K all the way!!!!

Right except for the part where I already admitted that batman could never concievably win in a straight up fight. Batman has a better detective mind, but is handicapped in that he needs a lot of advanced equipment to do what superman can do with his natural powers. My point is that Batman has years of detective experience and a mind far more attuned to the world of detective work. Superman is all intilectual potential and no refinery.

RIIIIIGGGHHHTTTTT so superman's had this knowledge of how to make himself a more effective fighter but normally just decides to go really fast with his fist out in front of himself to attack people? That makes all kinds of sense. When you're fighting for your life you use EVERY skill you have to defeat your enemy, every time. They are CIS because it's a skill that he doesn't normally employ but he has access to. Thor doesn't always stop time with his magic, Flash doesn't pummel his enemy in the first picosecond of the fight, etc... If the ability is still being used consistently after a year or two of canon material then yeah, sure, it's part of the character.
A lot of this comes down to exactly what is and isn't canon...whole runs of a comic are thrown out from canon because a character does things that are out of character or displays a consistent use of an ability that makes no sense or doesn't fit. I believe this will be viewed as a case of CIS.
Oh yeah, I remember her hitting her and falling off. I also remember Batman saying that catwoman could EASILY have cought her, but decided not to. We might think we knew the plan, but it ws never stated. I find it hard to believe Selina would allow lois to get away from her, she's a trained professional.
I agree that the situation would have to be pretty dire for batman to kill innocents, but he WOULD do it if he had to, and I don't think superman could live with it if he had to do the same.
Time will tell with the martail arts.

The two "victories" people bring up when defending Batman are the following...

DKR: Other than non continuity, and a poor show of Superman's character (really, he would've knocked down the pole instead of punching his 80 year old human friend, but I digress), people forget that...

a) Superman got hit with a NUKE. A special, superhuman killing nuke that left him barely a skeleton.

b) Superman got hit with MISSILES. Shot from Batmobile by Robin.

c) Superman got hit with KRYPTONITE. Shot from Green Arrow.

d) Battle ends with Superman hurt and Batman UNCONSCIOUS, faking his death. Superman wasn't out for the count gentlement.

So DKR proves that Batman + soviet nuke + robin + green arrow can HURT Superman.

Hush: Again, bad show of Superman's character, (and power), we have Superman doing his damnest not to hurt Batman, but we still have the fight ending with Superman holding a car over Batman's head when he's saved by Catwoman.

So Hush proves that Superman + Batman + Catwoman + Lois can overcome Ivy's mind control.

As for Superman's martial arts... He's always known them. Several old school issues of him powerless fighting villains, him mentioning techniques and whatnot (generally when fighting other strong, but younger heroes). But he knew HUMAN martial arts. It wasn't until Mongul started training him that he started to combine Martial arts with his powers, like flight, super breath, heat vision and the like...

Between that and spending a thousand years fighting a war alongside Norse Gods and Wonder Woman, he knows plenty about fighting...

Also note, the Green K ring is no longer in Batman's possession, last seen falling towards the Sun... Although, apparently, Luthor got his hands on it via Bizzaro...

I think we can close this discussion as a Superman Wins 10/10. I've already stated it before, and there are things that Bat's is better at then supes. Given the right situation Batman could easily assassinate Superman, but this is a one on one fight to the death as far as the battle was set up.

Superman Speed Blitz 10/10

I cant believe this discussion is happening. Yes, Batman is better at SOME things *which would be few and far between* but Supes could easily PAWN Batman, with 1 limb, wait no he has laser vision, NO limbs. Not attacking YOU jerhien.
this makes me mad, people would rather give FRICKIN BATMAN a chance against supes, instead of Goku... *sigh* is this wat the world has really come to?

As much as I prefer the Dark knight I'd have to say Superman in less theres some Krptonite around. I've that happened once too. However I dont know much about that.

Superman can take out Batman before Bruce even thinks about using Green K.