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 Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:05 pm
-xXGodslayer_RaiXx- divineseraph -xXGodslayer_RaiXx- lordstar -xXGodslayer_RaiXx- lordstar we could fix our overpopulation problem within the CJ system by legalizing marijuana we could regulate and tax the substance just like any other it would free up a bunch of space in the jails relieve the financial burden it would nearly destroy the crime associated with the substance (as there would be no need to buy it) oh and the best part the population will take care of itself one way or another you see by solving the socio-economic factors associated with crime crime would in theory nearly disappear because no one would have a reason for committing crime no one does anything just because there is a reason however obscure and perhaps out of sight it might be That is a good idea. And then we could breathe some economic life back into the inner cities. I'm not saying restore the old car factories but something along those lines so it won't hurt the enviroment or the people there. That way everyone will be happy and there will be less murders, rape, etc. Then there wouldn't be any economic opression. People would be able to feed their kids, etc. Bingo! We have a winner! And our economic strength as Americans is in our educated workforce wouldn't it be wonderful to build a world we could be proud of its like my grandparents told me they wanted a better life then they had and in that they have succeeded but they also felt the need to apologize for the state the world is in I don't want that message to continue change will happen when we make it happen it is our time to get involved and fight for our future In order for that change to happen we need to take care of the kids that are here who are living breathing free-thinking individuals. We need to help those who are mentally ill, diseased, abused, raped, molested etc. Because they ARE our future. The future of humanity rests on their shoulders. Their decisions can undoubtedly change the way the way the world is today and make sure the future doesn't look so bleak. (I'm not talking about feti, I'm talking about children, teenagers, toddlers, babies, the ones who society has long forgotten. The ones who society is willing to give up to make life better for something that isn't even close to be human.) Again, another Red Herring. Oh, yes, let's help the ones alive now. But let's also protect the unborn as well. They are also alive. Oh, and human by the way. You may want to refresh your biological understanding or crack open a dictionary. The point is, our argument is not about mentally disabled, abused or raped children, but about unborn ones. To drag that in to this discussion is unrelated in any way to the argument at hand and serves only to distract from the real argument. So yes, I agree. Let us help those who need it. And who else needs it more than feti, killed by the millions every single year? Let's work together to liberate them and give them a chance to grow up as adults and move this country and world into peace and harmony and equality. It is related. The fetus becomes the child that is mentally disabled or physically disabled. Am I right? To say it is irrevelant to your little plan is disgusting. That proves my theory. You pro-lifers care only about something that has no cognitive thinking as lordstar has said something that has no investment in life. What can it do besides sit inside a womb? Well? Can it do math, read, write, come up with a plan to end pollution? Well? What can it do to end suffering? You might want to watch the Science Channel or read a biology textbook or read your scripture some more. As Rick said the bible doesn't equate abortion or miscarriage to murder. Therefore the punishment is indeed a lot less than what true murder is. But I don't think you even know how serious a rape is. You don't even know how hard it is for a rape victim to get close to anyone, a boyfriend, husband even their friends. I don't think you even care. All you care about is something that isn't even human. Something that doesn't even have the ability to help save humanity. When in reality all it is doing is leading us to our demise because one day we're going to have over-population issues and have no food source left. It is an issue that no one cares about because all they care about is something they deem as the "future". So when the fetus becomes that baby you'll just abonden it. What does it matter to you? You protected the fetus now on to protect the next. Why should you care? Definition of human from m-w.com 1: of, relating to, or characteristic of humans 2: consisting of humans 3 a: having human form or attributes b: susceptible to or representative of the sympathies and frailties of human nature The human fetus in the first trimester doesn't have human qualities. It's closely resemblent to that of a horse fetus or any other animal fetus. It also has no sympathy nor can it feel sympathy. It doesn't have a human form or human attributes. Seriously look at an animal fetus in its first stages and compare that to a human fetus in its first stages (first trimester). Do they look similar or different and explain why? You are so incredibly wrong it amazes me. So, hit me up with some more red herring, followed by ad hominem, and then toss an incorrect and inconsistent definition at me. Let us start with your Red Herring. I am not arguing that feti cannot grow up into physically or mentally disabled individuals. However, not all feti follow this course, even those in the adoption system, to follow and smash your red herring. So, what is my plan? I think it goes something like this- 1- Make abortion illegal. 2-??? 3-Profit. Lots of profit to be made in people living. Much more profitible than, say, a company which aborts feti for 500-800 a pop. Nevermind how that works out, making money off of random, unconnected birhts. It works. Do you honestly think I have some dastardly scheme for these people? How ignorant. I was not arguing for or against rape. Rape was never even mentioned. Again, another Red Herring. Another appeal to emotion. As for not protecting feti- well, let us take some others off our list of protection as well. Let's say elders, for example. My grandmother can no longer make it up the stairs. She has Alzheimers and needs many expensive pills every month. Any way I turn, she will cost me much money and time and effort. Can I kill her please? When she is dead, since she is a good christian, she will go directly to heaven anyway, from a religious standpoint. And from a moral standpoint, her life quality is lacking as it is. Why not just make it easier and less expensive for all of us and have her done away with? My grandmother, my choice, eh? Or, since it would by money supporting her pills or assisted living, my money my choice. As she is now, she is merely leeching off of my resources, and it's not like she can really think or learn, with her mental illness. *note to literal imbeciles- I do not condone elder murder, this is an analogy. Now, as for your incorrect definition- That is human in the Adjective state, meaning a describing definition. How about the noun please? Human- A human being. human being- an individual of the genus Homo, esp. a member of the species Homo Sapiens. A person, especially as distinguished from other animals or as representing the human species. The fetus, though unthinking, falls under this category. Biologically, what else is it? A cat? A carrot? No, it is a human. Midgets do not look like full-sized humans. Are they inhuman? Black people don't look like white people. Who is the human there? Yes, human and animal feti look similar. This does not make them equivalent. Try again, and this time try to say something that I havent heard from every rabid, generic choicer to cross my path.
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Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:15 pm
lordstar divineseraph -xXGodslayer_RaiXx- lordstar -xXGodslayer_RaiXx- lordstar we could fix our overpopulation problem within the CJ system by legalizing marijuana we could regulate and tax the substance just like any other it would free up a bunch of space in the jails relieve the financial burden it would nearly destroy the crime associated with the substance (as there would be no need to buy it) oh and the best part the population will take care of itself one way or another you see by solving the socio-economic factors associated with crime crime would in theory nearly disappear because no one would have a reason for committing crime no one does anything just because there is a reason however obscure and perhaps out of sight it might be That is a good idea. And then we could breathe some economic life back into the inner cities. I'm not saying restore the old car factories but something along those lines so it won't hurt the enviroment or the people there. That way everyone will be happy and there will be less murders, rape, etc. Then there wouldn't be any economic opression. People would be able to feed their kids, etc. Bingo! We have a winner! And our economic strength as Americans is in our educated workforce wouldn't it be wonderful to build a world we could be proud of its like my grandparents told me they wanted a better life then they had and in that they have succeeded but they also felt the need to apologize for the state the world is in I don't want that message to continue change will happen when we make it happen it is our time to get involved and fight for our future In order for that change to happen we need to take care of the kids that are here who are living breathing free-thinking individuals. We need to help those who are mentally ill, diseased, abused, raped, molested etc. Because they ARE our future. The future of humanity rests on their shoulders. Their decisions can undoubtedly change the way the way the world is today and make sure the future doesn't look so bleak. (I'm not talking about feti, I'm talking about children, teenagers, toddlers, babies, the ones who society has long forgotten. The ones who society is willing to give up to make life better for something that isn't even close to be human.) Again, another Red Herring. Oh, yes, let's help the ones alive now. But let's also protect the unborn as well. They are also alive. Oh, and human by the way. You may want to refresh your biological understanding or crack open a dictionary. The point is, our argument is not about mentally disabled, abused or raped children, but about unborn ones. To drag that in to this discussion is unrelated in any way to the argument at hand and serves only to distract from the real argument. So yes, I agree. Let us help those who need it. And who else needs it more than feti, killed by the millions every single year? Let's work together to liberate them and give them a chance to grow up as adults and move this country and world into peace and harmony and equality. if your learning bio from a dictionary we have a problem m8 how about taking a class and or reading a bio textbook "The point is, our argument is not about mentally disabled, abused or raped children, but about unborn ones. To drag that in to this discussion is unrelated in any way to the argument at hand and serves only to distract from the real argument." The addition is very relevant I have said many times that if we do not help those who are disabled, abused, neglected, poor, cold, hungry...the cycle will continue The unborn are alive but not human I say there is more to being human then just being alive and a set of DNA A fetus has no investment in it's own life and thus is not human see I have given a reason why I think the way I do where all you do is say yuh huh dez is too human (sorry about the dramatization) It is a red herring becuase it does not have to do with abortion. However, amongstending abortion, I agree, we should help everyone. Born and unborn. ******** money, it causes more harm than anything. ******** war, it has never helped any but the rich. But this is not a debate about the adoption system nor the economy nor war. Though they tie in losely, they may only do that. They may not be used as an argumnt for or against, only to support an argument. For example, were we arguing about War, I could not say "Well, I think we need to improve the schooling system. End of discussion". Although education relates to war, it is not the argument at hand. L2logic. Well, I say that humans have to be white and christian. Welcome to the 1800's America.
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Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:15 pm
divineseraph lordstar divineseraph -xXGodslayer_RaiXx- lordstar Bingo! We have a winner! And our economic strength as Americans is in our educated workforce wouldn't it be wonderful to build a world we could be proud of its like my grandparents told me they wanted a better life then they had and in that they have succeeded but they also felt the need to apologize for the state the world is in I don't want that message to continue change will happen when we make it happen it is our time to get involved and fight for our future In order for that change to happen we need to take care of the kids that are here who are living breathing free-thinking individuals. We need to help those who are mentally ill, diseased, abused, raped, molested etc. Because they ARE our future. The future of humanity rests on their shoulders. Their decisions can undoubtedly change the way the way the world is today and make sure the future doesn't look so bleak. (I'm not talking about feti, I'm talking about children, teenagers, toddlers, babies, the ones who society has long forgotten. The ones who society is willing to give up to make life better for something that isn't even close to be human.) Again, another Red Herring. Oh, yes, let's help the ones alive now. But let's also protect the unborn as well. They are also alive. Oh, and human by the way. You may want to refresh your biological understanding or crack open a dictionary. The point is, our argument is not about mentally disabled, abused or raped children, but about unborn ones. To drag that in to this discussion is unrelated in any way to the argument at hand and serves only to distract from the real argument. So yes, I agree. Let us help those who need it. And who else needs it more than feti, killed by the millions every single year? Let's work together to liberate them and give them a chance to grow up as adults and move this country and world into peace and harmony and equality. if your learning bio from a dictionary we have a problem m8 how about taking a class and or reading a bio textbook "The point is, our argument is not about mentally disabled, abused or raped children, but about unborn ones. To drag that in to this discussion is unrelated in any way to the argument at hand and serves only to distract from the real argument." The addition is very relevant I have said many times that if we do not help those who are disabled, abused, neglected, poor, cold, hungry...the cycle will continue The unborn are alive but not human I say there is more to being human then just being alive and a set of DNA A fetus has no investment in it's own life and thus is not human see I have given a reason why I think the way I do where all you do is say yuh huh dez is too human (sorry about the dramatization) It is a red herring becuase it does not have to do with abortion. However, amongstending abortion, I agree, we should help everyone. Born and unborn. ******** money, it causes more harm than anything. ******** war, it has never helped any but the rich. But this is not a debate about the adoption system nor the economy nor war. Though they tie in losely, they may only do that. They may not be used as an argumnt for or against, only to support an argument. For example, were we arguing about War, I could not say "Well, I think we need to improve the schooling system. End of discussion". Although education relates to war, it is not the argument at hand. L2logic. Well, I say that humans have to be white and christian. Welcome to the 1800's America. Really now is that the best you got. Those ties are tighter than you think nor that you want to think they are. You want them to be looser because what do you care? It's not you. Why should you care? All that matters is the fetus. You're more selfish than the rich. Fatter than them. Have you ever worked with mentally challenged kids? Do you know what kind of crap they go though? Do ya? But why should you care? And don't give me crap? I know you're lying. Face the facts all you want is to same the things that don't even matter at this stage of the game. They can't do anything to support humanity and are going to be this world's ultimate downfall. You say who needs money when in reality we need money in order to survive. How are you going to eat? You need money to buy food. What about clothing and shelter? That costs money too. What about electricity and water? That also cost money. Nothing is free. *palms forehead* The difference between a fetus and a mentally disabled person is that a mentally disabled person has a least some higher level thinking. A fetus does not. Euthanasia is her choice. Alzhemier's may take her memories away in the latter stages but I'm guessing she does have a will somewhere. That is what determines Euthanasia. She has to have a living will. And if it is written in her will then it is her choice. And you have to honor that. If not then you are pitiful, pathetic and disgraceful grandaughter/grandson. You should be ashamed of yourself. Here's a question for you, if it's okay to euthanize animals when they are suffering then how come its not okay to euthanize someone who is terminally ill. Wow. Thank you for proving to me that por-lifers are racist. You make me hate you pricks even more. I never said that midgets weren't human. You're just putting words in my mouth. But why do you care? According to you then I'm not human. I have ADD. To most I am considered retarded. They probably consider me less than human because I'm not as smart as they are. And I've looked up various definitions of fetus. They don't say anything about a fetus being a person. It does refer to human's but that is only referring to what we are called. It's our name as a species. Try again and this time try not to use a racist tone it shows just how ignorant and simple-minded you are. This is 2008. Either get with times or shut up. I don't have time to deal with racist idiots like you. People make me sick. You're one of the reasons why humanity is doomed to fail.
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Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:36 pm
-xXGodslayer_RaiXx- divineseraph lordstar divineseraph -xXGodslayer_RaiXx- lordstar Bingo! We have a winner! And our economic strength as Americans is in our educated workforce wouldn't it be wonderful to build a world we could be proud of its like my grandparents told me they wanted a better life then they had and in that they have succeeded but they also felt the need to apologize for the state the world is in I don't want that message to continue change will happen when we make it happen it is our time to get involved and fight for our future In order for that change to happen we need to take care of the kids that are here who are living breathing free-thinking individuals. We need to help those who are mentally ill, diseased, abused, raped, molested etc. Because they ARE our future. The future of humanity rests on their shoulders. Their decisions can undoubtedly change the way the way the world is today and make sure the future doesn't look so bleak. (I'm not talking about feti, I'm talking about children, teenagers, toddlers, babies, the ones who society has long forgotten. The ones who society is willing to give up to make life better for something that isn't even close to be human.) Again, another Red Herring. Oh, yes, let's help the ones alive now. But let's also protect the unborn as well. They are also alive. Oh, and human by the way. You may want to refresh your biological understanding or crack open a dictionary. The point is, our argument is not about mentally disabled, abused or raped children, but about unborn ones. To drag that in to this discussion is unrelated in any way to the argument at hand and serves only to distract from the real argument. So yes, I agree. Let us help those who need it. And who else needs it more than feti, killed by the millions every single year? Let's work together to liberate them and give them a chance to grow up as adults and move this country and world into peace and harmony and equality. if your learning bio from a dictionary we have a problem m8 how about taking a class and or reading a bio textbook "The point is, our argument is not about mentally disabled, abused or raped children, but about unborn ones. To drag that in to this discussion is unrelated in any way to the argument at hand and serves only to distract from the real argument." The addition is very relevant I have said many times that if we do not help those who are disabled, abused, neglected, poor, cold, hungry...the cycle will continue The unborn are alive but not human I say there is more to being human then just being alive and a set of DNA A fetus has no investment in it's own life and thus is not human see I have given a reason why I think the way I do where all you do is say yuh huh dez is too human (sorry about the dramatization) It is a red herring becuase it does not have to do with abortion. However, amongstending abortion, I agree, we should help everyone. Born and unborn. ******** money, it causes more harm than anything. ******** war, it has never helped any but the rich. But this is not a debate about the adoption system nor the economy nor war. Though they tie in losely, they may only do that. They may not be used as an argumnt for or against, only to support an argument. For example, were we arguing about War, I could not say "Well, I think we need to improve the schooling system. End of discussion". Although education relates to war, it is not the argument at hand. L2logic. Well, I say that humans have to be white and christian. Welcome to the 1800's America. Really now is that the best you got. Those ties are tighter than you think nor that you want to think they are. You want them to be looser because what do you care? It's not you. Why should you care? All that matters is the fetus. You're more selfish than the rich. Fatter than them. Have you ever worked with mentally challenged kids? Do you know what kind of crap they go though? Do ya? But why should you care? And don't give me crap? I know you're lying. Face the facts all you want is to same the things that don't even matter at this stage of the game. They can't do anything to support humanity and are going to be this world's ultimate downfall. You say who needs money when in reality we need money in order to survive. How are you going to eat? You need money to buy food. What about clothing and shelter? That costs money too. What about electricity and water? That also cost money. Nothing is free. *palms forehead* The difference between a fetus and a mentally disabled person is that a mentally disabled person has a least some higher level thinking. A fetus does not. Euthanasia is her choice. Alzhemier's may take her memories away in the latter stages but I'm guessing she does have a will somewhere. That is what determines Euthanasia. She has to have a living will. And if it is written in her will then it is her choice. And you have to honor that. If not then you are pitiful, pathetic and disgraceful grandaughter/grandson. You should be ashamed of yourself. Here's a question for you, if it's okay to euthanize animals when they are suffering then how come its not okay to euthanize someone who is terminally ill. Wow. Thank you for proving to me that por-lifers are racist. You make me hate you pricks even more. I never said that midgets weren't human. You're just putting words in my mouth. But why do you care? According to you then I'm not human. I have ADD. To most I am considered retarded. They probably consider me less than human because I'm not as smart as they are. And I've looked up various definitions of fetus. They don't say anything about a fetus being a person. It does refer to human's but that is only referring to what we are called. It's our name as a species. Try again and this time try not to use a racist tone it shows just how ignorant and simple-minded you are. This is 2008. Either get with times or shut up. I don't have time to deal with racist idiots like you. People make me sick. You're one of the reasons why humanity is doomed to fail. You take me literally? When I so clearly was using an analogy, as before? But no, you have to take it to the other extreme, and assume that I am racist. Perhaps I was implying that black people were the true human beings? Or, perhaps, in your ignorant skimming of my post you missed the key ingredient- SARCASM. The obvious reality is that all people are people, regardless of ther color, age, size or mental status. This is why I used race as an example- black people and white people are clearly equivalent in all aspects, their physical charectaristics are irrelevant. what they look like does not matter. But no, go ahead. Call me racist, it gives you another reason to hate what you are ot willing to understand. Why should I care if feti live? Why should you care if women get to abort? you are a woman? We were both feti. That kind of logic works both ways. You are so simple. So quick to hide behind circular logic and generic rhetoric in able to justify your rash feelings. And when did the mentally handicapped come into this? Stop dragigng emotional red-herrings into this debate, it's getting annoying. It just so happens that I have several mentally handicapped relatives and acquaintences. I work with several handicapped people for my job. What do you really think is going to happen? Every single unwanted pregnany will come out retarded, get raped and molested and end up selling crack for undercover nazi revivalists? If so then wow, I guess I really am Hitler. Zeig HEIL! Edit- also, the hitler comment was what we refer to as sarcasm. I say this so the overly literal cannot truly believe that I am a nazi, as much as she may wish to do so. Furthermore, you missed my post actually related to yours. See above.
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Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:12 pm
Oooh. Quote vortexes make my head hurt. And was it strictly necessary to invoke the Nazis?
Anyway, divineseraph, I've got a question for you, owing to the fact that I've not debated with you enough on this topic (if at all, I"m not really sure) to know the details of your position: Are you against all abortions as a matter of principle, or are some abortions acceptable under specific circumstances—very early-term abortions, rape, health concerns, etc?
I've got another question as well: given that reasonable people disagree about the point at which an unborn organism bearing human DNA is a 'person', does your insistence on legislating your opinion on the matter run counter to the democratic principle, or is this an absolutist moral battle in the tradition of the 19th century opposition to slavery that admits of no compromises?
Of course, I'm asking primarily because I'd like to see something on this page that doesn't look like a bunch of nasty invective, but I'm also genuinely curious.
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:58 am
Tarrou Oooh. Quote vortexes make my head hurt. And was it strictly necessary to invoke the Nazis? Anyway, divineseraph, I've got a question for you, owing to the fact that I've not debated with you enough on this topic (if at all, I"m not really sure) to know the details of your position: Are you against all abortions as a matter of principle, or are some abortions acceptable under specific circumstances—very early-term abortions, rape, health concerns, etc? I've got another question as well: given that reasonable people disagree about the point at which an unborn organism bearing human DNA is a 'person', does your insistence on legislating your opinion on the matter run counter to the democratic principle, or is this an absolutist moral battle in the tradition of the 19th century opposition to slavery that admits of no compromises? Of course, I'm asking primarily because I'd like to see something on this page that doesn't look like a bunch of nasty invective, but I'm also genuinely curious. Well, considering that I am a racist mysoginist, I may as well be a nazi too. I am a cmmunist as well, which is quite the conundrum. (the nazi/racist/womanhater part was sarcasm. I really am a communist though, making money off of the work of the working class does not fit well with me.) I am against abortion for convenience. I accept but dislike abortion in the case of rape and entirely support abortion in the case of a risk to the mother's life. I would elaboate more, but I have to leave now.
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:48 am
divineseraph -xXGodslayer_RaiXx- divineseraph lordstar divineseraph Again, another Red Herring. Oh, yes, let's help the ones alive now. But let's also protect the unborn as well. They are also alive. Oh, and human by the way. You may want to refresh your biological understanding or crack open a dictionary. The point is, our argument is not about mentally disabled, abused or raped children, but about unborn ones. To drag that in to this discussion is unrelated in any way to the argument at hand and serves only to distract from the real argument. So yes, I agree. Let us help those who need it. And who else needs it more than feti, killed by the millions every single year? Let's work together to liberate them and give them a chance to grow up as adults and move this country and world into peace and harmony and equality. if your learning bio from a dictionary we have a problem m8 how about taking a class and or reading a bio textbook "The point is, our argument is not about mentally disabled, abused or raped children, but about unborn ones. To drag that in to this discussion is unrelated in any way to the argument at hand and serves only to distract from the real argument." The addition is very relevant I have said many times that if we do not help those who are disabled, abused, neglected, poor, cold, hungry...the cycle will continue The unborn are alive but not human I say there is more to being human then just being alive and a set of DNA A fetus has no investment in it's own life and thus is not human see I have given a reason why I think the way I do where all you do is say yuh huh dez is too human (sorry about the dramatization) It is a red herring becuase it does not have to do with abortion. However, amongstending abortion, I agree, we should help everyone. Born and unborn. ******** money, it causes more harm than anything. ******** war, it has never helped any but the rich. But this is not a debate about the adoption system nor the economy nor war. Though they tie in losely, they may only do that. They may not be used as an argumnt for or against, only to support an argument. For example, were we arguing about War, I could not say "Well, I think we need to improve the schooling system. End of discussion". Although education relates to war, it is not the argument at hand. L2logic. Well, I say that humans have to be white and christian. Welcome to the 1800's America. Really now is that the best you got. Those ties are tighter than you think nor that you want to think they are. You want them to be looser because what do you care? It's not you. Why should you care? All that matters is the fetus. You're more selfish than the rich. Fatter than them. Have you ever worked with mentally challenged kids? Do you know what kind of crap they go though? Do ya? But why should you care? And don't give me crap? I know you're lying. Face the facts all you want is to same the things that don't even matter at this stage of the game. They can't do anything to support humanity and are going to be this world's ultimate downfall. You say who needs money when in reality we need money in order to survive. How are you going to eat? You need money to buy food. What about clothing and shelter? That costs money too. What about electricity and water? That also cost money. Nothing is free. *palms forehead* The difference between a fetus and a mentally disabled person is that a mentally disabled person has a least some higher level thinking. A fetus does not. Euthanasia is her choice. Alzhemier's may take her memories away in the latter stages but I'm guessing she does have a will somewhere. That is what determines Euthanasia. She has to have a living will. And if it is written in her will then it is her choice. And you have to honor that. If not then you are pitiful, pathetic and disgraceful grandaughter/grandson. You should be ashamed of yourself. Here's a question for you, if it's okay to euthanize animals when they are suffering then how come its not okay to euthanize someone who is terminally ill. Wow. Thank you for proving to me that por-lifers are racist. You make me hate you pricks even more. I never said that midgets weren't human. You're just putting words in my mouth. But why do you care? According to you then I'm not human. I have ADD. To most I am considered retarded. They probably consider me less than human because I'm not as smart as they are. And I've looked up various definitions of fetus. They don't say anything about a fetus being a person. It does refer to human's but that is only referring to what we are called. It's our name as a species. Try again and this time try not to use a racist tone it shows just how ignorant and simple-minded you are. This is 2008. Either get with times or shut up. I don't have time to deal with racist idiots like you. People make me sick. You're one of the reasons why humanity is doomed to fail. You take me literally? When I so clearly was using an analogy, as before? But no, you have to take it to the other extreme, and assume that I am racist. Perhaps I was implying that black people were the true human beings? Or, perhaps, in your ignorant skimming of my post you missed the key ingredient- SARCASM. The obvious reality is that all people are people, regardless of ther color, age, size or mental status. This is why I used race as an example- black people and white people are clearly equivalent in all aspects, their physical charectaristics are irrelevant. what they look like does not matter. But no, go ahead. Call me racist, it gives you another reason to hate what you are ot willing to understand. Why should I care if feti live? Why should you care if women get to abort? you are a woman? We were both feti. That kind of logic works both ways. You are so simple. So quick to hide behind circular logic and generic rhetoric in able to justify your rash feelings. And when did the mentally handicapped come into this? Stop dragigng emotional red-herrings into this debate, it's getting annoying. It just so happens that I have several mentally handicapped relatives and acquaintences. I work with several handicapped people for my job. What do you really think is going to happen? Every single unwanted pregnany will come out retarded, get raped and molested and end up selling crack for undercover nazi revivalists? If so then wow, I guess I really am Hitler. Zeig HEIL! Edit- also, the hitler comment was what we refer to as sarcasm. I say this so the overly literal cannot truly believe that I am a nazi, as much as she may wish to do so. Furthermore, you missed my post actually related to yours. See above. Wow then you must really suck at sarcasm. It's hard for anyone on the bloody internet to tell what is sarcasm and what is not. Hitler is a disgrace to Germans. Why would you bring him into this? He has nothing to do with abortion. He amy have been a fetus but in reality that doesn't matter. No not every unwanted pregancy isn't going to end up with a mentally challenged kid, is going to be raped or molested. But those who are it is a possibility. My parents were married before I was born and they didn't have any kids and here I am. My mum could've chosen abortion but she didn't. There have been times when I would rather if she did abort me. Life would be better. And they wouldn't have such a screw up. Even now I still would rather be aborted. It's natural for the defendant to bring in the emotional appeal. It tugs at your heartstrings. It's something that works well in courts and in general. You're just too ignorant to see that. And I would like to see this proof that feti can feel pain. A brain scan, or CAT scan would be suffice. If you have no proof then your claims are null and void. Common sense and logic is what ultimately decides who survives in this world. If you don't like it well...you are too ignorant to understand. Someone like you has little chance of knowing what might happen. If someone told you the world would end in 2012 you'd believe it. Me on the other hand will sit and wait and watch the Moral Majority scream in terror as that day rolls around and laugh my arse off. And this is the internet. If this debate would take place in rl. I would be able to tell if you were sarcastic and lying. And be able to judge who you are by your personality.
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:21 pm
divineseraph Well, considering that I am a racist mysoginist, I may as well be a nazi too. I am a cmmunist as well, which is quite the conundrum. (the nazi/racist/womanhater part was sarcasm. I really am a communist though, making money off of the work of the working class does not fit well with me.) I am against abortion for convenience. I accept but dislike abortion in the case of rape and entirely support abortion in the case of a risk to the mother's life. I would elaboate more, but I have to leave now. I prefer democratic socialism myself. I'm not convinced you can have a communist government that doesn't veer into authoritarianism, and I'm quite certain that if you create the worker's paradise via a revolution, then whatever government emerges will be repressive (I take my views on the latter bit there from The Rebel). But that is neither here nor there, and it's actually kind of refreshing to see an unabashed leftist running around, well, anywhere these days. So might you be amenable to an abortion system similar to the one they have in, say, France? There abortion is available on demand up until the tenth week of pregnancy, though the woman seeking the abortion must undergo counseling on alternatives and submit to a one-week waiting period. After ten weeks you need two physicians to certify that the mother's health is at risk or that the fetus will be severely handicapped, otherwise it's illegal to perform an abortion. And, of course, all the relevant services are provided by the state or paid for by the state. Would that seem like a reasonable compromise?
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:06 pm
-xXGodslayer_RaiXx- divineseraph -xXGodslayer_RaiXx- divineseraph lordstar divineseraph Again, another Red Herring. Oh, yes, let's help the ones alive now. But let's also protect the unborn as well. They are also alive. Oh, and human by the way. You may want to refresh your biological understanding or crack open a dictionary. The point is, our argument is not about mentally disabled, abused or raped children, but about unborn ones. To drag that in to this discussion is unrelated in any way to the argument at hand and serves only to distract from the real argument. So yes, I agree. Let us help those who need it. And who else needs it more than feti, killed by the millions every single year? Let's work together to liberate them and give them a chance to grow up as adults and move this country and world into peace and harmony and equality. if your learning bio from a dictionary we have a problem m8 how about taking a class and or reading a bio textbook "The point is, our argument is not about mentally disabled, abused or raped children, but about unborn ones. To drag that in to this discussion is unrelated in any way to the argument at hand and serves only to distract from the real argument." The addition is very relevant I have said many times that if we do not help those who are disabled, abused, neglected, poor, cold, hungry...the cycle will continue The unborn are alive but not human I say there is more to being human then just being alive and a set of DNA A fetus has no investment in it's own life and thus is not human see I have given a reason why I think the way I do where all you do is say yuh huh dez is too human (sorry about the dramatization) It is a red herring becuase it does not have to do with abortion. However, amongstending abortion, I agree, we should help everyone. Born and unborn. ******** money, it causes more harm than anything. ******** war, it has never helped any but the rich. But this is not a debate about the adoption system nor the economy nor war. Though they tie in losely, they may only do that. They may not be used as an argumnt for or against, only to support an argument. For example, were we arguing about War, I could not say "Well, I think we need to improve the schooling system. End of discussion". Although education relates to war, it is not the argument at hand. L2logic. Well, I say that humans have to be white and christian. Welcome to the 1800's America. Really now is that the best you got. Those ties are tighter than you think nor that you want to think they are. You want them to be looser because what do you care? It's not you. Why should you care? All that matters is the fetus. You're more selfish than the rich. Fatter than them. Have you ever worked with mentally challenged kids? Do you know what kind of crap they go though? Do ya? But why should you care? And don't give me crap? I know you're lying. Face the facts all you want is to same the things that don't even matter at this stage of the game. They can't do anything to support humanity and are going to be this world's ultimate downfall. You say who needs money when in reality we need money in order to survive. How are you going to eat? You need money to buy food. What about clothing and shelter? That costs money too. What about electricity and water? That also cost money. Nothing is free. *palms forehead* The difference between a fetus and a mentally disabled person is that a mentally disabled person has a least some higher level thinking. A fetus does not. Euthanasia is her choice. Alzhemier's may take her memories away in the latter stages but I'm guessing she does have a will somewhere. That is what determines Euthanasia. She has to have a living will. And if it is written in her will then it is her choice. And you have to honor that. If not then you are pitiful, pathetic and disgraceful grandaughter/grandson. You should be ashamed of yourself. Here's a question for you, if it's okay to euthanize animals when they are suffering then how come its not okay to euthanize someone who is terminally ill. Wow. Thank you for proving to me that por-lifers are racist. You make me hate you pricks even more. I never said that midgets weren't human. You're just putting words in my mouth. But why do you care? According to you then I'm not human. I have ADD. To most I am considered retarded. They probably consider me less than human because I'm not as smart as they are. And I've looked up various definitions of fetus. They don't say anything about a fetus being a person. It does refer to human's but that is only referring to what we are called. It's our name as a species. Try again and this time try not to use a racist tone it shows just how ignorant and simple-minded you are. This is 2008. Either get with times or shut up. I don't have time to deal with racist idiots like you. People make me sick. You're one of the reasons why humanity is doomed to fail. You take me literally? When I so clearly was using an analogy, as before? But no, you have to take it to the other extreme, and assume that I am racist. Perhaps I was implying that black people were the true human beings? Or, perhaps, in your ignorant skimming of my post you missed the key ingredient- SARCASM. The obvious reality is that all people are people, regardless of ther color, age, size or mental status. This is why I used race as an example- black people and white people are clearly equivalent in all aspects, their physical charectaristics are irrelevant. what they look like does not matter. But no, go ahead. Call me racist, it gives you another reason to hate what you are ot willing to understand. Why should I care if feti live? Why should you care if women get to abort? you are a woman? We were both feti. That kind of logic works both ways. You are so simple. So quick to hide behind circular logic and generic rhetoric in able to justify your rash feelings. And when did the mentally handicapped come into this? Stop dragigng emotional red-herrings into this debate, it's getting annoying. It just so happens that I have several mentally handicapped relatives and acquaintences. I work with several handicapped people for my job. What do you really think is going to happen? Every single unwanted pregnany will come out retarded, get raped and molested and end up selling crack for undercover nazi revivalists? If so then wow, I guess I really am Hitler. Zeig HEIL! Edit- also, the hitler comment was what we refer to as sarcasm. I say this so the overly literal cannot truly believe that I am a nazi, as much as she may wish to do so. Furthermore, you missed my post actually related to yours. See above. Wow then you must really suck at sarcasm. It's hard for anyone on the bloody internet to tell what is sarcasm and what is not. Hitler is a disgrace to Germans. Why would you bring him into this? He has nothing to do with abortion. He amy have been a fetus but in reality that doesn't matter. No not every unwanted pregancy isn't going to end up with a mentally challenged kid, is going to be raped or molested. But those who are it is a possibility. My parents were married before I was born and they didn't have any kids and here I am. My mum could've chosen abortion but she didn't. There have been times when I would rather if she did abort me. Life would be better. And they wouldn't have such a screw up. Even now I still would rather be aborted. It's natural for the defendant to bring in the emotional appeal. It tugs at your heartstrings. It's something that works well in courts and in general. You're just too ignorant to see that. And I would like to see this proof that feti can feel pain. A brain scan, or CAT scan would be suffice. If you have no proof then your claims are null and void. Common sense and logic is what ultimately decides who survives in this world. If you don't like it well...you are too ignorant to understand. Someone like you has little chance of knowing what might happen. If someone told you the world would end in 2012 you'd believe it. Me on the other hand will sit and wait and watch the Moral Majority scream in terror as that day rolls around and laugh my arse off. And this is the internet. If this debate would take place in rl. I would be able to tell if you were sarcastic and lying. And be able to judge who you are by your personality. Yes, and feti who are wanted can end up ******** up. Should we kill all feti, then, since they all have a chance at being...defective, if you will? Actually, YOU seem to be the one focusing on the standards of who is worth living. I never said anything about being unworthy to live or be born... on the otherhand, your arguments claim that unwanted feti will be defective and are better off dead. Logically inconsistent, no? I would suggest carrying through your wishes and ceasing to exist. Is existence that hard for you? You know how to end it. Otherwise, that's just a load of bullshit. If you truly wanted to die, you would. And don't give me that "I live for someone else" load, I've heard it. If you're as self-serving as you say you are, that would not be an issue. Pain is irrelevant. Who was arguing for or against pain? Not I. And what is this common sense bullshit? You are so challeneged, it in itself is amusing. Your arguments make little sense, lack structure and are basically a smattering of unrelated emotional garbage.
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:17 pm
Tarrou divineseraph Well, considering that I am a racist mysoginist, I may as well be a nazi too. I am a cmmunist as well, which is quite the conundrum. (the nazi/racist/womanhater part was sarcasm. I really am a communist though, making money off of the work of the working class does not fit well with me.) I am against abortion for convenience. I accept but dislike abortion in the case of rape and entirely support abortion in the case of a risk to the mother's life. I would elaboate more, but I have to leave now. I prefer democratic socialism myself. I'm not convinced you can have a communist government that doesn't veer into authoritarianism, and I'm quite certain that if you create the worker's paradise via a revolution, then whatever government emerges will be repressive (I take my views on the latter bit there from The Rebel). But that is neither here nor there, and it's actually kind of refreshing to see an unabashed leftist running around, well, anywhere these days. So might you be amenable to an abortion system similar to the one they have in, say, France? There abortion is available on demand up until the tenth week of pregnancy, though the woman seeking the abortion must undergo counseling on alternatives and submit to a one-week waiting period. After ten weeks you need two physicians to certify that the mother's health is at risk or that the fetus will be severely handicapped, otherwise it's illegal to perform an abortion. And, of course, all the relevant services are provided by the state or paid for by the state. Would that seem like a reasonable compromise? I am for a very simplistic form of doing things. Basically, remove all forms of money and leave the rest of the economy alone. Aside from putting management positions into production, it would remain quite similar. Workers unions would make all decicions in a factory or workplace, voting by majority. Workers would be hired as needed by the workers union, instead of a manager. A punchcard system would be used to determine who had worked and produced. This would be shown at the door to the supermarket, where the worker could take anything he or she wanted. Some argue that greed would cause issues, but without money to use to exploit, and with all objects having a base value of zero, there would be less need to take unnecessarily like in a capitalistic society. And that french system sounds quite agreeable. Us lifers are NOT nazi's, a great majority of us believe in accepting abortion for rape and esepcially life or health risks to the mother. the other 1.3 million per year, not so much.
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:21 pm
divineseraph -xXGodslayer_RaiXx- divineseraph -xXGodslayer_RaiXx- divineseraph It is a red herring becuase it does not have to do with abortion. However, amongstending abortion, I agree, we should help everyone. Born and unborn. ******** money, it causes more harm than anything. ******** war, it has never helped any but the rich. But this is not a debate about the adoption system nor the economy nor war. Though they tie in loosely, they may only do that. They may not be used as an argument for or against, only to support an argument. For example, were we arguing about War, I could not say "Well, I think we need to improve the schooling system. End of discussion". Although education relates to war, it is not the argument at hand. L2logic. Well, I say that humans have to be white and christian. Welcome to the 1800's America. Really now is that the best you got. Those ties are tighter than you think nor that you want to think they are. You want them to be looser because what do you care? It's not you. Why should you care? All that matters is the fetus. You're more selfish than the rich. Fatter than them. Have you ever worked with mentally challenged kids? Do you know what kind of crap they go though? Do ya? But why should you care? And don't give me crap? I know you're lying. Face the facts all you want is to same the things that don't even matter at this stage of the game. They can't do anything to support humanity and are going to be this world's ultimate downfall. You say who needs money when in reality we need money in order to survive. How are you going to eat? You need money to buy food. What about clothing and shelter? That costs money too. What about electricity and water? That also cost money. Nothing is free. *palms forehead* The difference between a fetus and a mentally disabled person is that a mentally disabled person has a least some higher level thinking. A fetus does not. Euthanasia is her choice. Alzheimer's may take her memories away in the latter stages but I'm guessing she does have a will somewhere. That is what determines Euthanasia. She has to have a living will. And if it is written in her will then it is her choice. And you have to honor that. If not then you are pitiful, pathetic and disgraceful granddaughter/grandson. You should be ashamed of yourself. Here's a question for you, if it's okay to euthanize animals when they are suffering then how come its not okay to euthanize someone who is terminally ill. Wow. Thank you for proving to me that pro-lifers are racist. You make me hate you pricks even more. I never said that midgets weren't human. You're just putting words in my mouth. But why do you care? According to you then I'm not human. I have ADD. To most I am considered retarded. They probably consider me less than human because I'm not as smart as they are. And I've looked up various definitions of fetus. They don't say anything about a fetus being a person. It does refer to human's but that is only referring to what we are called. It's our name as a species. Try again and this time try not to use a racist tone it shows just how ignorant and simple-minded you are. This is 2008. Either get with times or shut up. I don't have time to deal with racist idiots like you. People make me sick. You're one of the reasons why humanity is doomed to fail. You take me literally? When I so clearly was using an analogy, as before? But no, you have to take it to the other extreme, and assume that I am racist. Perhaps I was implying that black people were the true human beings? Or, perhaps, in your ignorant skimming of my post you missed the key ingredient- SARCASM. The obvious reality is that all people are people, regardless of their color, age, size or mental status. This is why I used race as an example- black people and white people are clearly equivalent in all aspects, their physical characteristics are irrelevant. what they look like does not matter. But no, go ahead. Call me racist, it gives you another reason to hate what you are ot willing to understand. Why should I care if feti live? Why should you care if women get to abort? you are a woman? We were both feti. That kind of logic works both ways. You are so simple. So quick to hide behind circular logic and generic rhetoric in able to justify your rash feelings. And when did the mentally handicapped come into this? Stop dragging emotional red-herrings into this debate, it's getting annoying. It just so happens that I have several mentally handicapped relatives and acquaintances. I work with several handicapped people for my job. What do you really think is going to happen? Every single unwanted pregnancy will come out retarded, get raped and molested and end up selling crack for undercover Nazi revivalists? If so then wow, I guess I really am Hitler. Zeig HEIL! Edit- also, the Hitler comment was what we refer to as sarcasm. I say this so the overly literal cannot truly believe that I am a nazi, as much as she may wish to do so. Furthermore, you missed my post actually related to yours. See above. Wow then you must really suck at sarcasm. It's hard for anyone on the bloody Internet to tell what is sarcasm and what is not. Hitler is a disgrace to Germans. Why would you bring him into this? He has nothing to do with abortion. He may have been a fetus but in reality that doesn't matter. No not every unwanted pregnancy isn't going to end up with a mentally challenged kid, is going to be raped or molested. But those who are it is a possibility. My parents were married before I was born and they didn't have any kids and here I am. My mum could've chosen abortion but she didn't. There have been times when I would rather if she did abort me. Life would be better. And they wouldn't have such a screw up. Even now I still would rather be aborted. It's natural for the defendant to bring in the emotional appeal. It tugs at your heartstrings. It's something that works well in courts and in general. You're just too ignorant to see that. And I would like to see this proof that feti can feel pain. A brain scan, or CAT scan would be suffice. If you have no proof then your claims are null and void. Common sense and logic is what ultimately decides who survives in this world. If you don't like it well...you are too ignorant to understand. Someone like you has little chance of knowing what might happen. If someone told you the world would end in 2012 you'd believe it. Me on the other hand will sit and wait and watch the Moral Majority scream in terror as that day rolls around and laugh my arse off. And this is the Internet. If this debate would take place in rl. I would be able to tell if you were sarcastic and lying. And be able to judge who you are by your personality. Yes, and feti who are wanted can end up ******** up. Should we kill all feti, then, since they all have a chance at being...defective, if you will? Actually, YOU seem to be the one focusing on the standards of who is worth living. I never said anything about being unworthy to live or be born... on the otherhand, your arguments claim that unwanted feti will be defective and are better off dead. Logically inconsistent, no? I would suggest carrying through your wishes and ceasing to exist. Is existence that hard for you? You know how to end it. Otherwise, that's just a load of bullshit. If you truly wanted to die, you would. And don't give me that "I live for someone else" load, I've heard it. If you're as self-serving as you say you are, that would not be an issue. Pain is irrelevant. Who was arguing for or against pain? Not I. And what is this common sense bullshit? You are so challenged, it in itself is amusing. Your arguments make little sense, lack structure and are basically a smattering of unrelated emotional garbage. Again you're making another assumption about me. I'm not self-serving. Sure there are times that I am suicidal but all in all I do care about my friends. I know its a hard concept for you to understand and it's not complete and utter bullshit as you say it is. I think the reason you're saying this is because you never had people to care about. People who actually treated you better and made sure that you didn't fall into the darkness. It's really sad and I hate to say this but I actually feel sorry for you. Like I said before my friends are my family. They are my inspiration Not all unwanted feti are defective but it looks that way especially if that fetus once growing into that babe then that child is adopted. In other words once that child is adopted they are (this isn't the majority but few of them) treated with disgust. This has happened to my boyfriend. Over the past four years that I have known him he has told me that his adoptive parents would tell him that his mother was a whore. Now what does that do for that kid. Does it help him out in the long run emotionally scare him? The feeling of pain is something that most pro-lifers use in order to get people to realize that if they can feel pain then they must be a living being. It's a general statement, and it was directed at you. You shouldve been able to see that but you didn't. ...Don't tell me you don't know what common sense is. You got to be shitting me. *sighs*. common sense –noun sound practical judgment that is independent of specialized knowledge, training, or the like; normal native intelligence. It's not bullshit. It's something that everyone has. Most people don't use it. And having pathos isn't a bad thing. It's one of 3 appeals that we make to get people to understand a side. Right now you're using ethos or the ethical appeal. While I'm using pathos or the emotional appeal. Someone who brings in statistics is using logos or the logical appeal. And I know I suck at following with my points or debate or whatever. What do you expect from me. I just stated that I have ADD. Obviously I have problem with staying on task. (No my grades aren't faltering. Sure I have some C's but majority of my grades are A's and B's.). And I know I confuse people when I debate. When I go through my point in my head it makes sense to me but when I say it or even type it out..it becomes a clustered mess. And I guess we both want abortion to be for those who are raped and those whose lies depend on it. If you read the post before me and lordstar talked about reforming the CJ system then you'd know. If you skipped that part....I'm not saying anything.. And the CJ system and other reform do matter. If the fetus or feti is going to grow into children then we have to strive to make this world a better place. Another general statement: If pro-lifers are against murder then why are most of them for the death-penalty? It makes no sense and it perplexes me.
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:25 pm
divineseraph II am for a very simplistic form of doing things. Basically, remove all forms of money and leave the rest of the economy alone. Aside from putting management positions into production, it would remain quite similar. Workers unions would make all decicions in a factory or workplace, voting by majority. Workers would be hired as needed by the workers union, instead of a manager. A punchcard system would be used to determine who had worked and produced. This would be shown at the door to the supermarket, where the worker could take anything he or she wanted. Some argue that greed would cause issues, but without money to use to exploit, and with all objects having a base value of zero, there would be less need to take unnecessarily like in a capitalistic society. And that french system sounds quite agreeable. Us lifers are NOT nazi's, a great majority of us believe in accepting abortion for rape and esepcially life or health risks to the mother. the other 1.3 million per year, not so much. Oops. Flubbed my adjective-noun order: I consider myself a social democrat, not a democratic socialist. Go Sweden! My only concern is that the items can't have a base value of zero. As Adam Smith pointed out, labor is the basic unit of value, and since any item, including food, had to have been produced via labor of some sort, it therefore has an inherent, if not a stated, value. So I don't think you're going to eliminate greed just by eliminating monetary value. You could, I suppose, mandate that a worker only take an amount of a given product or 'basket' of products equal to his own labor output, possibly by giving out a set number of 'labor chits' or some such, but that's just money by a different name. Well, at the risk of bing blunt, some of you are (see South Dakota's Women's Health and Human Life Protection Act, though that was admittedly an overt attempt to force the Supreme Court to revisit the issue). Of course, that still doesn't make it fair to paint all of you with that brush. It is interesting that the U.S. places fewer restrictions on later-term abortions than do the countries of Western Europe, though the Europeans obviously make what abortions they do allow much easier to obtain that we do (universal health care and all that).
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Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:23 am
divineseraph lordstar divineseraph -xXGodslayer_RaiXx- lordstar Bingo! We have a winner! And our economic strength as Americans is in our educated workforce wouldn't it be wonderful to build a world we could be proud of its like my grandparents told me they wanted a better life then they had and in that they have succeeded but they also felt the need to apologize for the state the world is in I don't want that message to continue change will happen when we make it happen it is our time to get involved and fight for our future In order for that change to happen we need to take care of the kids that are here who are living breathing free-thinking individuals. We need to help those who are mentally ill, diseased, abused, raped, molested etc. Because they ARE our future. The future of humanity rests on their shoulders. Their decisions can undoubtedly change the way the way the world is today and make sure the future doesn't look so bleak. (I'm not talking about feti, I'm talking about children, teenagers, toddlers, babies, the ones who society has long forgotten. The ones who society is willing to give up to make life better for something that isn't even close to be human.) Again, another Red Herring. Oh, yes, let's help the ones alive now. But let's also protect the unborn as well. They are also alive. Oh, and human by the way. You may want to refresh your biological understanding or crack open a dictionary. The point is, our argument is not about mentally disabled, abused or raped children, but about unborn ones. To drag that in to this discussion is unrelated in any way to the argument at hand and serves only to distract from the real argument. So yes, I agree. Let us help those who need it. And who else needs it more than feti, killed by the millions every single year? Let's work together to liberate them and give them a chance to grow up as adults and move this country and world into peace and harmony and equality. if your learning bio from a dictionary we have a problem m8 how about taking a class and or reading a bio textbook "The point is, our argument is not about mentally disabled, abused or raped children, but about unborn ones. To drag that in to this discussion is unrelated in any way to the argument at hand and serves only to distract from the real argument." The addition is very relevant I have said many times that if we do not help those who are disabled, abused, neglected, poor, cold, hungry...the cycle will continue The unborn are alive but not human I say there is more to being human then just being alive and a set of DNA A fetus has no investment in it's own life and thus is not human see I have given a reason why I think the way I do where all you do is say yuh huh dez is too human (sorry about the dramatization) It is a red herring becuase it does not have to do with abortion. However, amongstending abortion, I agree, we should help everyone. Born and unborn. ******** money, it causes more harm than anything. ******** war, it has never helped any but the rich. But this is not a debate about the adoption system nor the economy nor war. Though they tie in losely, they may only do that. They may not be used as an argumnt for or against, only to support an argument. For example, were we arguing about War, I could not say "Well, I think we need to improve the schooling system. End of discussion". Although education relates to war, it is not the argument at hand. L2logic. Well, I say that humans have to be white and christian. Welcome to the 1800's America. interesting I wonder, does education relate to war? although I see your point and it is true we are not staying directly on topic none us are really we can contribute with small tangents our world is very complex and there are countless factors relating to abortion...some more relevant then others (economics vs position of the moon) Ask yourself, why would someone want an abortion and how did they find themselves in such a situation having asked the questions myself I found economics is a big factor and so is religion and or social pressures now from a biological stand humans are just a lump of DNA but human to human we are so much more how did we start on such a tangent first we started with the question then to answer the question we took a slight detour to talk about law then we asked what makes a human...human and is a fetus human a question that breeds more questions is not poison to the discussion its just digging for the roots of the problem I would rather do a bit of digging before we bandage the wound wouldn't you?
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Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:57 am
lordstar divineseraph lordstar divineseraph -xXGodslayer_RaiXx- lordstar Bingo! We have a winner! And our economic strength as Americans is in our educated workforce wouldn't it be wonderful to build a world we could be proud of its like my grandparents told me they wanted a better life then they had and in that they have succeeded but they also felt the need to apologize for the state the world is in I don't want that message to continue change will happen when we make it happen it is our time to get involved and fight for our future In order for that change to happen we need to take care of the kids that are here who are living breathing free-thinking individuals. We need to help those who are mentally ill, diseased, abused, raped, molested etc. Because they ARE our future. The future of humanity rests on their shoulders. Their decisions can undoubtedly change the way the way the world is today and make sure the future doesn't look so bleak. (I'm not talking about feti, I'm talking about children, teenagers, toddlers, babies, the ones who society has long forgotten. The ones who society is willing to give up to make life better for something that isn't even close to be human.) Again, another Red Herring. Oh, yes, let's help the ones alive now. But let's also protect the unborn as well. They are also alive. Oh, and human by the way. You may want to refresh your biological understanding or crack open a dictionary. The point is, our argument is not about mentally disabled, abused or raped children, but about unborn ones. To drag that in to this discussion is unrelated in any way to the argument at hand and serves only to distract from the real argument. So yes, I agree. Let us help those who need it. And who else needs it more than feti, killed by the millions every single year? Let's work together to liberate them and give them a chance to grow up as adults and move this country and world into peace and harmony and equality. if your learning bio from a dictionary we have a problem m8 how about taking a class and or reading a bio textbook "The point is, our argument is not about mentally disabled, abused or raped children, but about unborn ones. To drag that in to this discussion is unrelated in any way to the argument at hand and serves only to distract from the real argument." The addition is very relevant I have said many times that if we do not help those who are disabled, abused, neglected, poor, cold, hungry...the cycle will continue The unborn are alive but not human I say there is more to being human then just being alive and a set of DNA A fetus has no investment in it's own life and thus is not human see I have given a reason why I think the way I do where all you do is say yuh huh dez is too human (sorry about the dramatization) It is a red herring becuase it does not have to do with abortion. However, amongstending abortion, I agree, we should help everyone. Born and unborn. ******** money, it causes more harm than anything. ******** war, it has never helped any but the rich. But this is not a debate about the adoption system nor the economy nor war. Though they tie in losely, they may only do that. They may not be used as an argumnt for or against, only to support an argument. For example, were we arguing about War, I could not say "Well, I think we need to improve the schooling system. End of discussion". Although education relates to war, it is not the argument at hand. L2logic. Well, I say that humans have to be white and christian. Welcome to the 1800's America. interesting I wonder, does education relate to war? although I see your point and it is true we are not staying directly on topic none us are really we can contribute with small tangents our world is very complex and there are countless factors relating to abortion...some more relevant then others (economics vs position of the moon) Ask yourself, why would someone want an abortion and how did they find themselves in such a situation having asked the questions myself I found economics is a big factor and so is religion and or social pressures now from a biological stand humans are just a lump of DNA but human to human we are so much more how did we start on such a tangent first we started with the question then to answer the question we took a slight detour to talk about law then we asked what makes a human...human and is a fetus human a question that breeds more questions is not poison to the discussion its just digging for the roots of the problem I would rather do a bit of digging before we bandage the wound wouldn't you? We did have tangents, yes, but all related to feti and abortion. Issues other than abortion are not related. Helping kids in africa has no bearing on helping the unborn, they can BOTH be done and therefore talking about them as though the are exclusive and either/or is illogical.
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Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:07 am
-xXGodslayer_RaiXx- divineseraph -xXGodslayer_RaiXx- divineseraph -xXGodslayer_RaiXx- divineseraph It is a red herring becuase it does not have to do with abortion. However, amongstending abortion, I agree, we should help everyone. Born and unborn. ******** money, it causes more harm than anything. ******** war, it has never helped any but the rich. But this is not a debate about the adoption system nor the economy nor war. Though they tie in loosely, they may only do that. They may not be used as an argument for or against, only to support an argument. For example, were we arguing about War, I could not say "Well, I think we need to improve the schooling system. End of discussion". Although education relates to war, it is not the argument at hand. L2logic. Well, I say that humans have to be white and christian. Welcome to the 1800's America. Really now is that the best you got. Those ties are tighter than you think nor that you want to think they are. You want them to be looser because what do you care? It's not you. Why should you care? All that matters is the fetus. You're more selfish than the rich. Fatter than them. Have you ever worked with mentally challenged kids? Do you know what kind of crap they go though? Do ya? But why should you care? And don't give me crap? I know you're lying. Face the facts all you want is to same the things that don't even matter at this stage of the game. They can't do anything to support humanity and are going to be this world's ultimate downfall. You say who needs money when in reality we need money in order to survive. How are you going to eat? You need money to buy food. What about clothing and shelter? That costs money too. What about electricity and water? That also cost money. Nothing is free. *palms forehead* The difference between a fetus and a mentally disabled person is that a mentally disabled person has a least some higher level thinking. A fetus does not. Euthanasia is her choice. Alzheimer's may take her memories away in the latter stages but I'm guessing she does have a will somewhere. That is what determines Euthanasia. She has to have a living will. And if it is written in her will then it is her choice. And you have to honor that. If not then you are pitiful, pathetic and disgraceful granddaughter/grandson. You should be ashamed of yourself. Here's a question for you, if it's okay to euthanize animals when they are suffering then how come its not okay to euthanize someone who is terminally ill. Wow. Thank you for proving to me that pro-lifers are racist. You make me hate you pricks even more. I never said that midgets weren't human. You're just putting words in my mouth. But why do you care? According to you then I'm not human. I have ADD. To most I am considered retarded. They probably consider me less than human because I'm not as smart as they are. And I've looked up various definitions of fetus. They don't say anything about a fetus being a person. It does refer to human's but that is only referring to what we are called. It's our name as a species. Try again and this time try not to use a racist tone it shows just how ignorant and simple-minded you are. This is 2008. Either get with times or shut up. I don't have time to deal with racist idiots like you. People make me sick. You're one of the reasons why humanity is doomed to fail. You take me literally? When I so clearly was using an analogy, as before? But no, you have to take it to the other extreme, and assume that I am racist. Perhaps I was implying that black people were the true human beings? Or, perhaps, in your ignorant skimming of my post you missed the key ingredient- SARCASM. The obvious reality is that all people are people, regardless of their color, age, size or mental status. This is why I used race as an example- black people and white people are clearly equivalent in all aspects, their physical characteristics are irrelevant. what they look like does not matter. But no, go ahead. Call me racist, it gives you another reason to hate what you are ot willing to understand. Why should I care if feti live? Why should you care if women get to abort? you are a woman? We were both feti. That kind of logic works both ways. You are so simple. So quick to hide behind circular logic and generic rhetoric in able to justify your rash feelings. And when did the mentally handicapped come into this? Stop dragging emotional red-herrings into this debate, it's getting annoying. It just so happens that I have several mentally handicapped relatives and acquaintances. I work with several handicapped people for my job. What do you really think is going to happen? Every single unwanted pregnancy will come out retarded, get raped and molested and end up selling crack for undercover Nazi revivalists? If so then wow, I guess I really am Hitler. Zeig HEIL! Edit- also, the Hitler comment was what we refer to as sarcasm. I say this so the overly literal cannot truly believe that I am a nazi, as much as she may wish to do so. Furthermore, you missed my post actually related to yours. See above. Wow then you must really suck at sarcasm. It's hard for anyone on the bloody Internet to tell what is sarcasm and what is not. Hitler is a disgrace to Germans. Why would you bring him into this? He has nothing to do with abortion. He may have been a fetus but in reality that doesn't matter. No not every unwanted pregnancy isn't going to end up with a mentally challenged kid, is going to be raped or molested. But those who are it is a possibility. My parents were married before I was born and they didn't have any kids and here I am. My mum could've chosen abortion but she didn't. There have been times when I would rather if she did abort me. Life would be better. And they wouldn't have such a screw up. Even now I still would rather be aborted. It's natural for the defendant to bring in the emotional appeal. It tugs at your heartstrings. It's something that works well in courts and in general. You're just too ignorant to see that. And I would like to see this proof that feti can feel pain. A brain scan, or CAT scan would be suffice. If you have no proof then your claims are null and void. Common sense and logic is what ultimately decides who survives in this world. If you don't like it well...you are too ignorant to understand. Someone like you has little chance of knowing what might happen. If someone told you the world would end in 2012 you'd believe it. Me on the other hand will sit and wait and watch the Moral Majority scream in terror as that day rolls around and laugh my arse off. And this is the Internet. If this debate would take place in rl. I would be able to tell if you were sarcastic and lying. And be able to judge who you are by your personality. Yes, and feti who are wanted can end up ******** up. Should we kill all feti, then, since they all have a chance at being...defective, if you will? Actually, YOU seem to be the one focusing on the standards of who is worth living. I never said anything about being unworthy to live or be born... on the otherhand, your arguments claim that unwanted feti will be defective and are better off dead. Logically inconsistent, no? I would suggest carrying through your wishes and ceasing to exist. Is existence that hard for you? You know how to end it. Otherwise, that's just a load of bullshit. If you truly wanted to die, you would. And don't give me that "I live for someone else" load, I've heard it. If you're as self-serving as you say you are, that would not be an issue. Pain is irrelevant. Who was arguing for or against pain? Not I. And what is this common sense bullshit? You are so challenged, it in itself is amusing. Your arguments make little sense, lack structure and are basically a smattering of unrelated emotional garbage. Again you're making another assumption about me. I'm not self-serving. Sure there are times that I am suicidal but all in all I do care about my friends. I know its a hard concept for you to understand and it's not complete and utter bullshit as you say it is. I think the reason you're saying this is because you never had people to care about. People who actually treated you better and made sure that you didn't fall into the darkness. It's really sad and I hate to say this but I actually feel sorry for you. Like I said before my friends are my family. They are my inspiration Not all unwanted feti are defective but it looks that way especially if that fetus once growing into that babe then that child is adopted. In other words once that child is adopted they are (this isn't the majority but few of them) treated with disgust. This has happened to my boyfriend. Over the past four years that I have known him he has told me that his adoptive parents would tell him that his mother was a whore. Now what does that do for that kid. Does it help him out in the long run emotionally scare him? The feeling of pain is something that most pro-lifers use in order to get people to realize that if they can feel pain then they must be a living being. It's a general statement, and it was directed at you. You shouldve been able to see that but you didn't. ...Don't tell me you don't know what common sense is. You got to be shitting me. *sighs*. common sense –noun sound practical judgment that is independent of specialized knowledge, training, or the like; normal native intelligence. It's not bullshit. It's something that everyone has. Most people don't use it. And having pathos isn't a bad thing. It's one of 3 appeals that we make to get people to understand a side. Right now you're using ethos or the ethical appeal. While I'm using pathos or the emotional appeal. Someone who brings in statistics is using logos or the logical appeal. And I know I suck at following with my points or debate or whatever. What do you expect from me. I just stated that I have ADD. Obviously I have problem with staying on task. (No my grades aren't faltering. Sure I have some C's but majority of my grades are A's and B's.). And I know I confuse people when I debate. When I go through my point in my head it makes sense to me but when I say it or even type it out..it becomes a clustered mess. And I guess we both want abortion to be for those who are raped and those whose lies depend on it. If you read the post before me and lordstar talked about reforming the CJ system then you'd know. If you skipped that part....I'm not saying anything.. And the CJ system and other reform do matter. If the fetus or feti is going to grow into children then we have to strive to make this world a better place. Another general statement: If pro-lifers are against murder then why are most of them for the death-penalty? It makes no sense and it perplexes me. 1- And again, this happens in non-adoptive families as well. Life is based on chance, largely. There is no way of knowing who will be abused and who will be retarded. There are certain genetic factors which can raise this chance, but to claim that all, or even most adopted children will be abused is absurd, and to base millions of deaths on this tiny, unfortunate spin of the roulette wheel is equally absurd. 2- Again, I call bullshit. If you really wanted to die, you would. End of story. You're either looking for pity or attention. And frankly, I don't care. People who use how bad their lives are as an excuse to be nasty don't get my care. 3- Did I mention pain? No? Then don't argue it with me. But, I should mention, claiming that somethingdoesn ot exist due to a lack of proof is the Logical Fallacy of Appeal to Ignorance, if you msut go there. 4-I know what common sense is. What I was asking was- How does it relate to anything in this debate? How is it related in any way, aside from being filler that you think makes you sound smart? Seems to me like it was a chep way of throwing in a roundabout, passive-aggressive ad hominem. Common sense isn't bullshit, your style of argument is. As for ADD, I have ADD as well. So does my girlfriend. It us unrelated to debate and is not an excuse to throw random, incoherent rambles about nothing. Stop making excuses for why your arguments fail. Are you for abortion for conveneince? They make up 95 or so percent of all abortions.
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