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 Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:30 am
Eoforgar DM_Melkhar If THAT doesn't make sense to you Eo, then I get the feeling nothing will. No, it's not making sense to me Mel, because I'm not seeing where 'D&D' started writing the books instead of Salvatore... Drizzt is inseperable from D&D, as he was created based on a D&D class & race in the D&D setting of Forgotten Realms. Everything else (his cliche Gary-Stuness) is down to the writing of Salvatore. If you're in doubt as to what the 'Gary-Stu' thing is actually about, I suggest reading the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article.
I understand completely what Mary-Sue and Gary-Stu are all about. I just think that people bung so many characters into that category unnecessarily. Like I said before, it's the princess damsel in distress and her prince charming who are fine definitions of Mary-Sue and Gary-Stu.
As you can see, Mr. Catstyle here uses Drizzt's name as a username, so it is evident he's interested in him as a character. He's read more about Drizzt than I have, so it'd be best to take heed of what he says.
What relates Drizzt to D&D is that Forgotten Realms is published by TSR, as is D&D (and Dragonlance). Salvatore writes books within Forgotten Realms, and Drizzt is his own character created for that world, therefore pretty much giving TSR the right to use him in other ways - aka in D&D.
Even with my referral to Rayne the same thing applies. It's like someone saying she's not a good character and the games are crap without having ever played them based on only watching the films. You are judging the character of Drizzt because of how TSR have written him into D&D, and because you can't get into Salvatore's writing style. As I said, he is Salvatore's character, and Salvatore happens to write in the Forgotten Realms franchise. It is because Forgotten Realms is the D&D world that he has been made manifest in the RPG world.
If you can't read the books because of the style, don't bother criticising because you don't know both sides of the coin. Look at the truth on Wikipedia - Drizzt Do'Urden. Note that the beginning line says that D&D is based on the Forgotten Realms setting.
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:06 pm
drizzt-catstyle One creator of forgotten realms D&D campaign setting : Ed Greenwood.NOT SALVATORE. Two: Dizzt created AS A CHARACTER NOT RELATED TO D&D by Salvatore. I never said Salvatore created FR confused question Unfortunately your second assertation is plainly false: Drizzt is a Drow (D&D race) ranger (D&D class) who lives in the Forgotten Realms (D&D setting). DM_Melkhar TSR (publishers of Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance and D&D) TOOK Drizzt and used him in its campaigns, and even in the Baldur's Gate games. No Mel, they didn't 'take' him; maybe what you're unaware of is that what Salvatore writes in his books becomes what is happening in the gaming world of Forgotten Realms too. So Salvatore is still the one responsible for Drizzt. DM_Melkhar You are judging the character of Drizzt because of how TSR have written him into D&D Actually, apart from having published Drizzt's game statistics (which Salvatore wrote), there's only been one D&D product which used Drizzt & that was using him as a 'tour guide' to the Underdark - not a role that exactly made any difference to Salvatore's existing work on the character! Drizzt's cameo appearances in FR based games doesn't equate to anything more than a reflection of his existing popularity & certainly hasn't done anything to change the character (ok, in BG you could defeat Drizzt, which wouldn't be possible if he were more closely based on the novels). DM_Melkhar Note that the beginning line says that D&D is based on the Forgotten Realms setting. That's a misquote: it says that Drizzt & the Forgotten Realms setting are based on D&D. DM_Melkhar If you can't read the books because of the style, don't bother criticising because you don't know both sides of the coin. If you go back to my previous posts, you'll see that what I asked was for 'you' (not just Mel, but anyone that wants to weigh-in on this) to tell me if these criticisms which I am familiar with are unjustified... you haven't done that yet becasue you've been trying to blame the criticisms on the D&D brand, instead of the author who wrote the character & obviously therefore has control over how he goes about what he does & the impression he makes. Drizzt-catstyle's mention of Drizzt having trouble deafeating Artemis Entreri is the closest mention of something that might debunk his Gary-Stu status, but a convincing argument has not been made yet. Perhaps this could be expanded upon?
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Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:18 am
Eoforgar drizzt-catstyle One creator of forgotten realms D&D campaign setting : Ed Greenwood.NOT SALVATORE. Two: Dizzt created AS A CHARACTER NOT RELATED TO D&D by Salvatore. I never said Salvatore created FR confused question Unfortunately your second assertation is plainly false: Drizzt is a Drow (D&D race) ranger (D&D class) who lives in the Forgotten Realms (D&D setting). DM_Melkhar TSR (publishers of Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance and D&D) TOOK Drizzt and used him in its campaigns, and even in the Baldur's Gate games. No Mel, they didn't 'take' him; maybe what you're unaware of is that what Salvatore writes in his books becomes what is happening in the gaming world of Forgotten Realms too. So Salvatore is still the one responsible for Drizzt. DM_Melkhar You are judging the character of Drizzt because of how TSR have written him into D&D Actually, apart from having published Drizzt's game statistics (which Salvatore wrote), there's only been one D&D product which used Drizzt & that was using him as a 'tour guide' to the Underdark - not a role that exactly made any difference to Salvatore's existing work on the character! Drizzt's cameo appearances in FR based games doesn't equate to anything more than a reflection of his existing popularity & certainly hasn't done anything to change the character (ok, in BG you could defeat Drizzt, which wouldn't be possible if he were more closely based on the novels). DM_Melkhar Note that the beginning line says that D&D is based on the Forgotten Realms setting. That's a misquote: it says that Drizzt & the Forgotten Realms setting are based on D&D. DM_Melkhar If you can't read the books because of the style, don't bother criticising because you don't know both sides of the coin. If you go back to my previous posts, you'll see that what I asked was for 'you' (not just Mel, but anyone that wants to weigh-in on this) to tell me if these criticisms which I am familiar with are unjustified... you haven't done that yet becasue you've been trying to blame the criticisms on the D&D brand, instead of the author who wrote the character & obviously therefore has control over how he goes about what he does & the impression he makes. Drizzt-catstyle's mention of Drizzt having trouble deafeating Artemis Entreri is the closest mention of something that might debunk his Gary-Stu status, but a convincing argument has not been made yet. Perhaps this could be expanded upon?
I'll leave you to your D&D statistics that seem to matter in all corners of TSR's publications.....even though the novels are fiction and D&D is just a game despite the both of them being of the same world.
I feel I'm wasting my time now, so I can't be bothered to add to those other quotes you made. I'll leave it for now, I have better things to do.
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Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:50 am
I find your absurd mockery insulting Mel; please don't do that.
If you can't take the time to contribute to the discussion right now, perhaps it would be better if you left posting until you can.
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:09 am
Eoforgar I find your absurd mockery insulting Mel; please don't do that. If you can't take the time to contribute to the discussion right now, perhaps it would be better if you left posting until you can.
And begging your pardon, but until I see your username as the registered guild owner and captain I will be doing no such thing. If you have a problem with me, I suggest you read the guild rules and take it to PMs.
A note to everyone else - I view you all equal here, unless matters get out of hand in certain circumstances, such as this one. Please do not let this event deter you.
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:31 am
Eoforgar I find your absurd mockery insulting Mel; please don't do that. If you can't take the time to contribute to the discussion right now, perhaps it would be better if you left posting until you can. I dont think you have any right to make that kind of comment, you do not own this guild. So therefore she can do whatever she wants, and say whatever she wants. When you think about it, D&D.....isn't that wonderful, I mean it takes the fun out of a lot of things, and it takes the fun out of Drizzt, But lets get back on track shall we?
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:00 pm
Mystic Wondering Mine would be...holy crap i don't know. Definitely Eragon Jasmin from the Deltora Quest series Zorel (a character from my story) So, you like the Electronic dragon, eh Mystic? Ha-ha! I don't mean to make fun, I am just trying to make a harmless joke with the name of the movie. I mean, it seems that this day and age, everything has en "e" or an "I" in front of it. Don't you think? Ha-ha! rofl Anyhoo, guess what everyone? I have new favorite fantasy characters. Shanoa and Laura the Jeweler from Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia.
Alicia the Fortune Teller from Rune Factory 2.If you wanna look up that last one you can go to the catacombs sub-forum and check out the "Witches" thread. I placed a pic of that character there. wink
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:41 pm
hypnocrown Mystic Wondering Mine would be...holy crap i don't know. Definitely Eragon Jasmin from the Deltora Quest series Zorel (a character from my story) So, you like the Electronic dragon, eh Mystic? Ha-ha! I don't mean to make fun, I am just trying to make a harmless joke with the name of the movie. I mean, it seems that this day and age, everything has en "e" or an "I" in front of it. Don't you think? Ha-ha! rofl Anyhoo, guess what everyone? I have new favorite fantasy characters. Shanoa and Laura the Jeweler from Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia.
Alicia the Fortune Teller from Rune Factory 2.If you wanna look up that last one you can go to the catacombs sub-forum and check out the "Witches" thread. I placed a pic of that character there. wink i don't get it sweatdrop
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:56 pm
What's not to get? E-ragon? Like E-mail? As in Electronic mail? You do get it now, right?
I was trying to make a funny, that's all... sweatdrop
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:23 pm
ohhh, i'm just slow i guess
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Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:33 pm
Dragoon_Arcadia When you think about it, D&D.....isn't that wonderful, I mean it takes the fun out of a lot of things, and it takes the fun out of Drizzt. Speak for yourself. I love D&D and have enjoyed a number of very good story lines. When you have the right group, it becomes more a form of communal story telling rather than a game. And, to add another piece of editorial... There's fun to be had in Drizzt? I haven't found any, personally...
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Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 9:05 am
Have you read the books Berz? My argument with Eoforgar was that he couldn't give a complete full opinion as he'd not read them and only criticised Drizzt in D&D. I don't believe that something like that should be done unless one has a firm understanding of a character/setting/storyline etc...
It's like any adaptation from book/game to film, or book to RPG, or anything else of the likes.
If you've read the books as well and still come to that conclusion about the character, fairplay to you. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I just wish more people would take the time to see the full picture.
I personally do not intend to continue with this particular topic after this message, lest history repeat itself.
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Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 2:25 pm
Hm in light of recent arguments I'll revise my statement about Drizzt being one of my favourite characters. Now to clarify I'll say Drizzt- when completely detached from all elements of D&D(stats and such) and purely based on Salvatore's books- is one of my favourite fantasy characters.
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Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 4:32 pm
I tried reading one of the books and was severely unimpressed. I tend to be when it comes to Salvatore in general, though he has a few interesting concepts. After a few chapters and the realization that reading it was a chore, I gave up.
Drizzt himself was a particular roadblock in getting into the books, because I just find him to be annoying.
I have the same problem with Ed Greenwood's books about Elminster. Fair play to him for creating the Forgotten Realms in the first place, but I hit the bit about Elminster turning into a woman for no apparent reason and wrote Greenwood off as a novelist. He's a fabulous world-builder, but needs to get off the bewbie-high when he's writing novels.
Plus, I do have to admit to a recent bit of a Salvatore boycott on my part. WotC showers him with contract after contract for Drizzt book after Drizzt book, regardless of whether or not they're actually well-written, and cancel the contracts of other Realms authors like Elaine Cunningham, in spite of massive fan demand. It's lamesauce.
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Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 10:58 am
I believe Drizzt is one of those love or hate characters going by what I've seen here. I think he's a good character personally, but each to their own. My argument with Eoforgar was no more than him having slated his character based on the fact he's from Forgotten Realms and got dragged into D&D seeing as it's the same world.
Anyhow, how about we find another character to pull to pieces? sweatdrop
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