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| Why then? |
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20% |
[ 4 ] |
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50% |
[ 10 ] |
| I dont know but it is a good question |
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30% |
[ 6 ] |
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 Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:36 am
Lethkhar Goldenlici Through all this, you wish to know why people die and go to hell? What are your thoughts? You have yet to give me any other explination other than you think it is unfair for God to have created this method. Why do you think God created this system? You have heard my thoughts, so before I continue to argue with you, I would like to think about the reasons God could have. What reasons can you come up with? I have kept an open mind to your argument, so please just keep an open mind for a second and think about it. No attacks. No declarations of injustice. Just any reasons you can thinkk about that would explain the necessity of hell. I cannot think of any reason for Hell to be necessary. How hard did you think about that? "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23 You do not believe in punishment for sins? Do you believe in sending people to jail? Jail is a confinement with restrictions and frankly, harsher conditions than a normal life. Why can humans punish sin, but not God?
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Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:53 pm
Goldenlici Lethkhar Goldenlici Through all this, you wish to know why people die and go to hell? What are your thoughts? You have yet to give me any other explination other than you think it is unfair for God to have created this method. Why do you think God created this system? You have heard my thoughts, so before I continue to argue with you, I would like to think about the reasons God could have. What reasons can you come up with? I have kept an open mind to your argument, so please just keep an open mind for a second and think about it. No attacks. No declarations of injustice. Just any reasons you can thinkk about that would explain the necessity of hell. I cannot think of any reason for Hell to be necessary. How hard did you think about that? "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23 You do not believe in punishment for sins? Do you believe in sending people to jail? Jail is a confinement with restrictions and frankly, harsher conditions than a normal life. Why can humans punish sin, but not God? I think punishment is unecessary in God's case. He's omnipotent. He could simply make us so we aren't flawed and we don't sin. It wouldn't go against out "free will", since not sinning would be our will. I certainly find that to be a much more pleasing alternative to Hell. So yes, I actually did think about it.
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Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:51 pm
God can not make people not sin. Sin is free-will. The ability to choose a color or something small like that is not free-will. The idea is that you have the freedom to choose the way your soul will be formed. A computor can choose a color. A computor can choose a career. A computor can choose from a list of things to do for a day. The most important choice you can make is whether or not to follow a life of sin or God. If God were to take away a person's ability to sin, what else is there for people to decide. They would be preprogrammed to follow God.
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Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 10:14 pm
Goldenlici God can not make people not sin. Sin is free-will. The ability to choose a color or something small like that is not free-will. The idea is that you have the freedom to choose the way your soul will be formed. A computor can choose a color. A computor can choose a career. A computor can choose from a list of things to do for a day. A computer can also make a choice whether to sin or not. Quote: The most important choice you can make is whether or not to follow a life of sin or God. If God were to take away a person's ability to sin, what else is there for people to decide. They would be preprogrammed to follow God. People are preprogramme to do a lot of things. I can't control whether my heart beats or not short of killing myself. Is that defying my free will? No, it's just keeping my alive. Just like setting my mind to not commit sin would merely keep me out of Hell. It would still be my own free will choosing not to sin.
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:45 am
Welcome back. Lethkhar Goldenlici God can not make people not sin. Sin is free-will. The ability to choose a color or something small like that is not free-will. The idea is that you have the freedom to choose the way your soul will be formed. A computor can choose a color. A computor can choose a career. A computor can choose from a list of things to do for a day. A computer can also make a choice whether to sin or not. Quote: The most important choice you can make is whether or not to follow a life of sin or God. If God were to take away a person's ability to sin, what else is there for people to decide. They would be preprogrammed to follow God. People are preprogramme to do a lot of things. I can't control whether my heart beats or not short of killing myself. Is that defying my free will? No, it's just keeping my alive. Just like setting my mind to not commit sin would merely keep me out of Hell.It would still be my own free will choosing not to sin. Exactly, you have to make the choice not to sin, even if that just means "setting" your mind not to sin, which, in my opinion, means letting God take control of your life.
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:13 pm
Goldenlici Welcome back. Lethkhar Goldenlici God can not make people not sin. Sin is free-will. The ability to choose a color or something small like that is not free-will. The idea is that you have the freedom to choose the way your soul will be formed. A computor can choose a color. A computor can choose a career. A computor can choose from a list of things to do for a day. A computer can also make a choice whether to sin or not. Quote: The most important choice you can make is whether or not to follow a life of sin or God. If God were to take away a person's ability to sin, what else is there for people to decide. They would be preprogrammed to follow God. People are preprogramme to do a lot of things. I can't control whether my heart beats or not short of killing myself. Is that defying my free will? No, it's just keeping my alive. Just like setting my mind to not commit sin would merely keep me out of Hell.It would still be my own free will choosing not to sin. Exactly, you have to make the choice not to sin, even if that just means "setting" your mind not to sin, which, in my opinion, means letting God take control of your life. I have to make the choice to sin. We agree on that. So merely setting my personality to tend not to sin is all you have to do to prevent me from sinning. Now, if my personality inclines me to not sin, then all that really means is that I will always choose, of my own free will, to not sin. It's still my own will. I'm the one making the decision. I'm not being forced to do anything by anyone. That's just the way I am. I could sin if I wanted to, but I don't want to.
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:59 pm
Lethkhar Goldenlici Welcome back. Lethkhar Goldenlici God can not make people not sin. Sin is free-will. The ability to choose a color or something small like that is not free-will. The idea is that you have the freedom to choose the way your soul will be formed. A computor can choose a color. A computor can choose a career. A computor can choose from a list of things to do for a day. A computer can also make a choice whether to sin or not. Quote: The most important choice you can make is whether or not to follow a life of sin or God. If God were to take away a person's ability to sin, what else is there for people to decide. They would be preprogrammed to follow God. People are preprogramme to do a lot of things. I can't control whether my heart beats or not short of killing myself. Is that defying my free will? No, it's just keeping my alive. Just like setting my mind to not commit sin would merely keep me out of Hell.It would still be my own free will choosing not to sin. Exactly, you have to make the choice not to sin, even if that just means "setting" your mind not to sin, which, in my opinion, means letting God take control of your life. I have to make the choice to sin. We agree on that. So merely setting my personality to tend not to sin is all you have to do to prevent me from sinning. Now, if my personality inclines me to not sin, then all that really means is that I will always choose, of my own free will, to not sin. It's still my own will. I'm the one making the decision. I'm not being forced to do anything by anyone. That's just the way I am. I could sin if I wanted to, but I don't want to. But, you do sin. Everyone does. A little white lie counts as a sin. Talking back to your parents counts as a sin. Yelling at any siblings or friends counts as a sin. The idea is that you do sin and you do so because that is the way your mind has developed as a child growing in a sinful world. To become a Christian and go to heaven, you don't have to stop sinning. You just have to recognize that you have sinned and there is no way for you to atone for those sins alone. Also, that you need Jesus's sacrifice as God in a human form who committed no sin to cover the sin you commit. The difference between the people who go to heaven and the people who go to hell is that the group that goes to heaven realizes that they are sinful and need God. There isn't a sin level that determines whether or not you go to hell. "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the So of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." Matthew 12: 31 The only way not to go to heaven is by saying that God does not exist and you don't need His help. Every other sin is forgiven no matter how horrible. I think that is a pretty generous God.
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Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:37 pm
Goldenlici Lethkhar Goldenlici Welcome back. Lethkhar Goldenlici God can not make people not sin. Sin is free-will. The ability to choose a color or something small like that is not free-will. The idea is that you have the freedom to choose the way your soul will be formed. A computor can choose a color. A computor can choose a career. A computor can choose from a list of things to do for a day. A computer can also make a choice whether to sin or not. Quote: The most important choice you can make is whether or not to follow a life of sin or God. If God were to take away a person's ability to sin, what else is there for people to decide. They would be preprogrammed to follow God. People are preprogramme to do a lot of things. I can't control whether my heart beats or not short of killing myself. Is that defying my free will? No, it's just keeping my alive. Just like setting my mind to not commit sin would merely keep me out of Hell.It would still be my own free will choosing not to sin. Exactly, you have to make the choice not to sin, even if that just means "setting" your mind not to sin, which, in my opinion, means letting God take control of your life. I have to make the choice to sin. We agree on that. So merely setting my personality to tend not to sin is all you have to do to prevent me from sinning. Now, if my personality inclines me to not sin, then all that really means is that I will always choose, of my own free will, to not sin. It's still my own will. I'm the one making the decision. I'm not being forced to do anything by anyone. That's just the way I am. I could sin if I wanted to, but I don't want to. But, you do sin. Everyone does. A little white lie counts as a sin. Talking back to your parents counts as a sin. Yelling at any siblings or friends counts as a sin. The idea is that you do sin and you do so because that is the way your mind has developed as a child growing in a sinful world. To become a Christian and go to heaven, you don't have to stop sinning. You just have to recognize that you have sinned and there is no way for you to atone for those sins alone. Also, that you need Jesus's sacrifice as God in a human form who committed no sin to cover the sin you commit. The difference between the people who go to heaven and the people who go to hell is that the group that goes to heaven realizes that they are sinful and need God. There isn't a sin level that determines whether or not you go to hell. "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the So of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." Matthew 12: 31 The only way to go to heaven is by saying that God does not exist and you don't need His help. Every other sin is forgiven no matter how horrible. I think that is a pretty generous God. Trust me, I've heard that spiel a thousand times before. I know everyone supposedly sins and such. I am merely pointing out that God could easily make it so no one sinned and therefore no one burned in Hell, while still maintaining free will. Please explain to me why He doesn't.
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Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:11 pm
Life would have no purpose. Why did God create us in a separate world if He was just going to let us all go to heaven without a choice? Our lives really have no meaning if we are preprogrammed not to sin. I've always heard this analogy. You know those robot pets they have now. They do what you tell them to do. They can say "I love you" or show their affection in other ways, but does that robotic pet make you feel loved? What about a real pet that can either choose to like you or not like you? That makes you feel a little better. What about another human who can make the same choices and feel the same emotions as you? Then the love actually means something. If God preprogrammed everyone to say "I love you God," what is the purpose of that life?
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Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:14 am
Goldenlici Life would have no purpose. Why did God create us in a separate world if He was just going to let us all go to heaven without a choice? I don't know. It seems to me we should skip the whole earth bit and go right to Heaven. Quote: Our lives really have no meaning if we are preprogrammed not to sin. I've always heard this analogy. You know those robot pets they have now. They do what you tell them to do. They can say "I love you" or show their affection in other ways, but does that robotic pet make you feel loved? What about a real pet that can either choose to like you or not like you? That makes you feel a little better. What about another human who can make the same choices and feel the same emotions as you? Then the love actually means something. If God preprogrammed everyone to say "I love you God," what is the purpose of that life? I don't know about you, but I personally find plenty of meaning in my life in things that have absolutely nothing to do with God. Whether I loved God or not, I would still love music, art, humor, friends, food, discovery, the constant exploration of my own psych, meditation, travelling, and the smell of fresh rain, for starters. Sure, my life may seem pointless to God because it's no fun for me to love Him when He can't threaten me into it, but I would enjoy my life nonetheless.
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Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:15 am
Lethkhar I am merely pointing out that God could easily make it so no one sinned and therefore no one burned in Hell, while still maintaining free will. Please explain to me why He doesn't. Because God wants to be loved for himself. God already created perfect beings who were made specifically to worship him... and a third of them left heaven. Hell didn't exist in the beginning. There was heaven, and then there was war. When the angels that fought against God left, they made a place right near heaven. Human souls separate from God at first just couldn't enter heaven. Where's the other place for them to go? Souls are STOLEN and tortured because the fallen knew how that would hurt God. The Bible doesn't explicitly say that, but passages and books that were cut out do. So, after the little revolt, God decided that he wouldn't create any more beings that were SUPPOSED to love him. He created beings that would be given a choice. Follow his rules, love him, want to be more like him. Or not. He didn't want puppets. He wanted people. I firmly believe that if angels hadn't fallen, Hell wouldn't exist, and no one would be burned forever. That's now just the only place for unattached souls to go. Hell really originally was separation from God. Now it sucks.
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Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:41 am
Lethkhar Goldenlici Life would have no purpose. Why did God create us in a separate world if He was just going to let us all go to heaven without a choice? I don't know. It seems to me we should skip the whole earth bit and go right to Heaven. Quote: Our lives really have no meaning if we are preprogrammed not to sin. I've always heard this analogy. You know those robot pets they have now. They do what you tell them to do. They can say "I love you" or show their affection in other ways, but does that robotic pet make you feel loved? What about a real pet that can either choose to like you or not like you? That makes you feel a little better. What about another human who can make the same choices and feel the same emotions as you? Then the love actually means something. If God preprogrammed everyone to say "I love you God," what is the purpose of that life? I don't know about you, but I personally find plenty of meaning in my life in things that have absolutely nothing to do with God. Whether I loved God or not, I would still love music, art, humor, friends, food, discovery, the constant exploration of my own psych, meditation, travelling, and the smell of fresh rain, for starters. Sure, my life may seem pointless to God because it's no fun for me to love Him when He can't threaten me into it, but I would enjoy my life nonetheless. How much do you enjoy your life? Sure, you can enjoy music, and other things, but what does that leave you when the song ends? Following God leaves me feeling joy all the time and makes me feel important all the time, not just when I am doing something I like, and not just when I am doing something useful. It seems you are unhappy with your current beliefs if you are so intent on exploring religions. Why do so many people seek either to prove or disprove God if they are happy with their lives?
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Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:18 pm
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Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:51 pm
ryuu_chan Lethkhar I am merely pointing out that God could easily make it so no one sinned and therefore no one burned in Hell, while still maintaining free will. Please explain to me why He doesn't. Because God wants to be loved for himself. God already created perfect beings who were made specifically to worship him... and a third of them left heaven. Hell didn't exist in the beginning. There was heaven, and then there was war. When the angels that fought against God left, they made a place right near heaven. Human souls separate from God at first just couldn't enter heaven. Where's the other place for them to go? Souls are STOLEN and tortured because the fallen knew how that would hurt God. The Bible doesn't explicitly say that, but passages and books that were cut out do. So, after the little revolt, God decided that he wouldn't create any more beings that were SUPPOSED to love him. He created beings that would be given a choice. Follow his rules, love him, want to be more like him. Or not. He didn't want puppets. He wanted people. I firmly believe that if angels hadn't fallen, Hell wouldn't exist, and no one would be burned forever. That's now just the only place for unattached souls to go. Hell really originally was separation from God. Now it sucks. I don't really understand this: How do the angels steal souls from God? Isn't God omnipotent? And how did the angels rebel against God if they loved and worshipped Him?
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Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:02 pm
Goldenlici Lethkhar Goldenlici Life would have no purpose. Why did God create us in a separate world if He was just going to let us all go to heaven without a choice? I don't know. It seems to me we should skip the whole earth bit and go right to Heaven. Quote: Our lives really have no meaning if we are preprogrammed not to sin. I've always heard this analogy. You know those robot pets they have now. They do what you tell them to do. They can say "I love you" or show their affection in other ways, but does that robotic pet make you feel loved? What about a real pet that can either choose to like you or not like you? That makes you feel a little better. What about another human who can make the same choices and feel the same emotions as you? Then the love actually means something. If God preprogrammed everyone to say "I love you God," what is the purpose of that life? I don't know about you, but I personally find plenty of meaning in my life in things that have absolutely nothing to do with God. Whether I loved God or not, I would still love music, art, humor, friends, food, discovery, the constant exploration of my own psych, meditation, travelling, and the smell of fresh rain, for starters. Sure, my life may seem pointless to God because it's no fun for me to love Him when He can't threaten me into it, but I would enjoy my life nonetheless. How much do you enjoy your life? A lot. I'm one of the happiest people I know. Quote: Sure, you can enjoy music, and other things, but what does that leave you when the song ends? Another song, hopefully. Or I could always listen to that song again. I sometimes do that, where all I listen to is one song for weeks on end. Good songs leave lasting emotion long after they've ended. So the song could leave me with any range of emotions, and if the artist was talented a strange sort of awe at their creativity or sheer genius. Quote: Following God leaves me feeling joy all the time and makes me feel important all the time, not just when I am doing something I like, and not just when I am doing something useful. See, I sort of follow that philosophy. Nothing really bugs me too much. I mean, I can get really upset about atrocities and disasters, but when s**t happens to me I just sort of deal with it. I'm an optimist, it may surprise you to know. My self-esteem is healthy, so I don't ever really feel the need to prove anything to anyone or to stress when bad things happen. Hell, I came up with the name of my band; Pangloss. If you've ever read Candide, that should tell you something. Of course, I'm not naive like Pangloss was. There seems to be a popular misconception that all atheists are grumpy and sad. That's really completely unbased. Quote: It seems you are unhappy with your current beliefs if you are so intent on exploring religions. Not so. I am intent on exploring religions for several reasons: 1. To see if I can incorporate any of it into my own beliefs. It's best to remain open-minded. 2. For the simple sake of discovery. I get excited by learning new things. 3. I feel that I have an obligation to be as well-educated about the world I live in as possible. You never know when it'll come in handy, you know? I don't want to look like a total idiot when I'm trying to negotiate business with a Buddhist and I haven't read The Diamond Cutter. 4. It's a great way to meet new people. 5. It's terribly useful in debates. 6. It makes me feel like a true intellectual. 7. Why on earth not? Quote: Why do so many people seek either to prove or disprove God if they are happy with their lives? Because it makes them happier to do so, I suppose.
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