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Xiterrose

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:10 pm


Beware the Jabberwock
FreeArsenal
It's great to see an old-fashioned liberal for a change.

I wouldn't say I'm "old fashioned" but I mean being part of a majority (white) I feel discriminated against quite a bit. By native people who treat me as though I personally stole their land and black people who treat me as though I personally own a slave. So automatically I owe them something.

That's just as much discrimination as me calling them racist names.


You don't owe them jack.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:10 pm


FreeArsenal
Beware the Jabberwock
Centre around their own perspective? Excuse me, I believe that it also centres around science and psychology.

All you've got is how you don't believe that they're born that way, which has no backing or basis what-so-ever. Not to mention even if they DID choose to be gay (which they don't) who the Hell cares? I CHOSE my hair to be red, I certainly wasn't a red head when I was born, however it doesn't stop me from getting married simply because I chose something that concerns my body, and my body alone.


Well, I base my viewpoint on Sociology and Science, as well as social philosophy.

I'm not basing my opinion on anything except the difference between special rights and equal rights. In the United States, there is a law called the "child Safety act" specifically made to protect homosexuals more than any other group.

This I feel is a special right, because it would punish someone more simply because the victim claims to be Gay. No one can tell how a person is gay, unless that person says so. There are already definitions of a "hate crime" in the United States; which have been exercised to use for equality, but these extra laws are seeking more to punish someone if the person they harmed just so happened to be a homosexual.

I don't know if you misread me or not, but I'm clearing things up between the "gay rights" movement, and "human rights" movement. Equal rights, and special rights are two different things when we talk about laws.

I completely agree, something I would like to add on this is the only difference between a hate crime and any other crime is the motive. It is the reasoning, not that the attack(or whatever else happened)was any more severe or devestating, but on what the person thought. People should never be punished on what they think solely on thier actions.
The only time I really get pissed off is when people say they support hate crimes, just not for homosexuals. They simply call it special rights because they don't like the particular group. Personally I support the repeal of all hate crimes legislation for all minorities.

karllikespies


lymelady
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 4:28 pm


I always use descriptions. I used to write stories a lot, I had a few that were well over 500, two over 1000 I think. All rubbish, but my problem was that I always went so far with the plot that I never used descriptions. In order to fix that, I made a conscious effort to make people see what I was seeing in my mind.

So I tend to do it a bit, and other people I know do it too. I get described as, "My friend Kate, a redhead," even though my hair color has nothing to do with the story.

But then I forget that I was lucky enough to be colorblind until my teachers taught us not to be racist, which actually taught me to think of people based on their skin color. I don't expect any attitudes from any stereotype because people are all the same wherever you go. We're each unique, but we've got these patterns that you find proportionally among races. Among areas, however, the cultural influence of the PLACE takes effect. I'd expect a group of kids following me in the run down parts of DC talking loudly and matching my pace to be dangerous, just because that is where people are mugged, raped, and killed the most around my area. The same group of kids behind me in my neighborhood would give me no call for concern, though, because it's such an out of the way, neighborly little place.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 4:38 pm


There is no such thing as a "hate crime" since almost all crimes are conducted out of hate...you et what I'm saying wiht this?

Tiger of the Fire


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 4:46 pm


Pyrotechnic Oracle
There is no such thing as a "hate crime" since almost all crimes are conducted out of hate...you et what I'm saying wiht this?
I agree with that; It seems rather silly to add to the punishment of a crime, because it's committed out of "hate," since you probably wouldn't commit the same type of crime unless you hated the person.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:06 pm


Pyrotechnic Oracle
There is no such thing as a "hate crime" since almost all crimes are conducted out of hate...you et what I'm saying wiht this?


I know what you mean, but the concept of a hate crime is that you "pre-conceived" something you didn't like about a person, and then moved to attack him or her.

It can be anything, from the person being a ***** to the person just being black or asian. This was made to protect people from groups that explicitly target a group of people.

Just like there are different degrees of murder, I suppose a "hate crime" is a higher degree of a violent crime.

I believe all crimes are hate crimes, but some can be proven to be more hateful than others according to the courts in the United States.

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lymelady
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:09 pm


What about crimes done out of fear? Or despair? Or lust? Or pain? Or sorrow? Or insanity? Or ignorance? Etc....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:10 pm


karllikespies
I completely agree, something I would like to add on this is the only difference between a hate crime and any other crime is the motive. It is the reasoning, not that the attack(or whatever else happened)was any more severe or devestating, but on what the person thought. People should never be punished on what they think solely on thier actions.
The only time I really get pissed off is when people say they support hate crimes, just not for homosexuals. They simply call it special rights because they don't like the particular group. Personally I support the repeal of all hate crimes legislation for all minorities.


Any crime with a "pre-conceived" notion falls under the definition of hate crime under the Judicial law of the United States. I believe it doesn't matter what it is a person dislikes about the other person, if they made the extra effort to target someone, 80% of the time it can be proven in court.

But Hate crimes can happen to anyone and everyone, not just a particular group of people, which is why I like the broad definition of it.

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Tiger of the Fire

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:18 pm


lymelady
What about crimes done out of fear? Or despair? Or lust? Or pain? Or sorrow? Or insanity? Or ignorance? Etc....


Reread what I said and tell me when you get to the word "almost"
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:23 pm


The insane will either have no real understanding of what they are doing. Or they will beilive what they did was the right thing to do.

Tiger of the Fire


lymelady
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:43 pm


My point is that most crimes are not done out of hate. I mean, people attack based on race, sex, etc. all the time, and not out of hate. A genuine hate crime is done out of hate. A lot of hateful crimes, and very similar crimes, are done for a variety of different reasons, but the people tend to have reasons why the situation prompted the attack. If you go out looking to kill someone, you're obviously being hateful. If you have a fear of a certain group or anger towards someone and are in a situation where you feel the need to kill someone, it's not usually out of hate. It's out of stupidity...kidding. THe person usually feels the need to do it in this situation. Otherwise, every self defense case could be labeled a hate crime if the person killed or wounded was in a racial group that the person doing the attacking didn't particularly like.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:51 pm


I.Am
Pyrotechnic Oracle
There is no such thing as a "hate crime" since almost all crimes are conducted out of hate...you et what I'm saying wiht this?
I agree with that; It seems rather silly to add to the punishment of a crime, because it's committed out of "hate," since you probably wouldn't commit the same type of crime unless you hated the person.

Wrong. Hate is usually very seldom the driving force behind crimes. The feeling of power, almost like you can control the person you're hurting is a BIG factor in crime.

There's also something known as "crimes of passion" which would be like if you walked in on your wife having sex with another man and you shot him. Your sentance would be different than if you had just randomly shot some person.

Hate crimes are derived from a person who feels hate towards a group of people for whatever reason, and so commits crimes against a member or members of that communitee. For a description of a TRUE hate crime read up on Matthew Shepard (who was taken to a remote area, tied to a fence, pistol whipped and then left for dead, because he was gay)


Quote:
During court cases both of the defendants used varying stories to defend their actions. Most notably they used the "gay panic defense", arguing that they were driven to temporary insanity by Shepard's alleged sexual advances towards them. At another point they stated that they had only wanted to rob Shepard, and never intended to kill him.

Henderson pleaded guilty on April 5, 1999 and agreed to testify against McKinney to avoid the death penalty; he received two consecutive life sentences, without the possibility of parole. The jury in McKinney's trial found him guilty of first degree murder. As it began to deliberate on the death penalty, Shepard's parents brokered a deal, resulting in McKinney also receiving two consecutive life terms without the possibility of parole. Shepard's parents stated, "We are giving him life in the memory of one who no longer lives" (local Roman Catholic clerics garnered considerable publicity when they opposed the death penalty in the case). Since being imprisoned, McKinney and Henderson have both attempted to justify their actions by claiming that they were dictated by the Bible.


Or Teena Brandon (Who was raped because she was passing herself off as a male, when she was a female. Then murdered so she couldn't testify against the rape charges.)

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A Menina Pianista

PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:34 am


I come from a strict Christian family, and I don't really have anything against it. My religion says it's wrong, but that's when I need to remember that America doesn't consist of only one religion, and I'm not the type to push my morals on others, in most cases. Unless something really bad is going on (Example, A group of homeless in an alley people are burning babies in oil barrel fires to show respect for the trashcan gods, etc.).

And I've done a bit of research, and the only thing I've found so far is that in my beliefs, it's not encouraged. But if that's the only excuse I have for hating so many people just for being different (which I don't), I'm not going to even allow myself to vote against them, since I have nothing I can hold against them. Which is why I don't hate them or their rights. Besides, it's not like I personally have something against them, either. They seem pretty normal to me. Some are friendly, some are not, just like straight people. They have favorite colors, hobbies, friends (I would hope they do, at least), favorite movies, favorite bands, birthdays and families like us. I've yet to meet any that I dislike.

And if I don't like knowing that people are getting married in that way, that's understandable, but it's their life--not mine. Besides, there are things out there that we really need to stop. Like abortion, and someone pushing something on someone else's body. How would we feel if we weren't allowed to marry men, or if men wouldn't be allowed to marry women? That would be horrible! I would feel different, alone, and separated.

And for respect of my religion and family, even though many people might loathe me for this, when I get older, I don't plan on voting in favor of their marriage. But just the same, in no way am I going to vote against it. Besides, when I'm actually able to vote (2012), the decision will most likely have been made by then, anyway.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:33 pm


Lorysa
And if I don't like knowing that people are getting married in that way, that's understandable, but it's their life--not mine. Besides, there are things out there that we really need to stop. Like abortion, and anothing else pushing something on someone else's body. How would we feel if we weren't allowed to marry men, or if men wouldn't be allowed to marry women? That would be horrible! I would feel different, alone, and separated.
I agree with pretty much everything you said; But as far as this point I've quoted, it's pretty obvious that woman/man marriages couldn't be illegalized, since, assuming that children should only come to married couples, that would mean the extinction of our race. sweatdrop

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