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 Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:40 pm
I want to send in the next book I finish. That might be too early to say, but that's my goal. I know I'll probably be rejected, but I need experience being rejected and writing query letters and all that jazz.
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:14 pm
KaNugget I want to send in the next book I finish. That might be too early to say, but that's my goal. I know I'll probably be rejected, but I need experience being rejected and writing query letters and all that jazz. Awesome--I think that's a great attitude to have, and a good goal to shoot for. 3nodding You'll learn a lot just by working through the process. It gets less intimidating over time. My problem was always "when is this ready to submit?" and I was er... wrong a few times. XD But that's what revising is for, and persistence.
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:24 pm
I was wrong about my work being ready for submission the first time I sent it. I promised myself I wouldn't look at it until I heard back. When I finally looked at it again... Hoo, boy... that was embarrassing...
Even still, I like to think of rejection letters as helpful little buggers.
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:40 am
Yeah, there are a few things I wish I could go back and tell myself. But ultimately it was a great learning experience, and some of my best rewrites have been spurred on by specific rejections.
Still making mistakes now, of course--just different mistakes. But it's a start.
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:54 am
Continued from another thread... Racheling To add another perspective on characters... Thinking of characters as tools doesn't mean someone who writes like that doesn't love the characters they've created, or is doomed to write bad characters that no one can relate to. To me it means I don't let my initial perception of the character bog them down because "that's what Rosie would do, it's just the kind of person she is." At least for me, if I said my characters were tools, I would mean that they are changeable based on the needs of the story. I wrote a character I loved. She was so much fun to write, but readers felt she was too bitchy and they couldn't relate to her. I decided they were right and completely rewrote her personality. (I like her more now, though the original version was still fun--but she's almost a whole new character.) Because of this, I was able to revise most of the plot at the same time, and the book is 100x better now. This is what I mean when I say they're tools--I can't let myself get so hung up on thinking of them as a real person that I can't tear up their motivation and personality and everything else for the sake of the work. So yeah, I'd say I lean more toward the characters as tools mindset. I don't learn about my characters--I decide what they're like. I don't feel like they exist as a person outside the story. The trick is to make them feel like they exist for the reader, and that's enough for me. I don't believe that viewing characters this way means you can't write good characters. I'm aware I work differently than a lot of writers, and I fully believe either method is perfectly fine. Writers should do whatever works for them. I just thought this might help express the "other side." xd Racheling 11linda You can't just change a person (character) I mean people have what they will and will not do, the same as character's. If you need to force yourself to change a character to make a story work... It will most likely come out as s**t, because people will get stuck... I thought this person was like me... now they are like the bad guy... I think you misunderstood. When I talked about changing a character, I mean from the beginning. Rewriting them completely, so there is no issue of inconsistency. I think you're under the impression that I believe in changing characters around on a whim in the middle of a scene, which is not what I was saying at all. 11linda A character has to have a mind of their own, not your mind or they would all be like Twilgiht's Bella, a piece of s**t rock who follows and does what the other characters what, even though she is said to be the main character. The great thing about being a writer is you use your mind to create characters. My mind decides what they're like, and my mind is how I think about what actions and motivations will keep them consistent. I realize not everyone thinks that way, but it's a completely valid way to write, just like your way is. 11linda I would never change a character to satisfy a few readers, not everyone thinks that. Some people will love your writing other were not. If you try to change your character to satisfy everyone, then you will not enjoy the character, you will know it isn't what it should be. You would know that it is crap. Personality makes a story in my opinion the way the character acts and interacts with others based on their personality makes them, if you change that you change the WHOLE story, and make it something it shouldn't be. It takes time to learn to take a step back and see if the readers are correct. It's not a matter of trying to satisfy everyone, it's a matter of being able to distance myself enough from the story to realize when it's not good enough, where I haven't gone far enough, where things are falling short for whatever reason. You should understand why things aren't working before changing anything or you will fall into the trap of trying to please everyone. But I've scrapped characters, chapters, plots, half a novel, etc. because they weren't good enough. I don't believe a story (or character) should be bound by what came to mind first, and I love when I'm able to tear it apart and put it back together as something new and improved and so much more awesome than the previous versions. 11linda You can't just decide what they are like... I am sorry to say this, I am quite blunt. If you think you control your character. You are crazier than a fat person who can't stop eating. Your character will NEVER turn out if you can't even keep them the same. They will just be piece of s**t like twight.... Agreeing to disagree is fine, but name-calling is, well, uncalled for IMO. Everyone works in different ways. I never insulted you or your work. I'd appreciate the same in return. /end derail of Phade's journal
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:14 am
I saw this on Phade's journal. As the Vice Captain, I do ask that everyone respects everyones opinion on the whole character discussion and that we could avoid any kind of name-calling. Sorry guys.
A note on the whole character argument is that I agree with the fact all writers are different and the way we think/plan/write is always going to be different. We could never lecture someone else on writing as that person already has their own style. Personally I would love to see all of our ideas on the whole character being a tool argument, as long as it stays calm 3nodding .
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DesertRoseFallen Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:16 am
Thank you Desert. I think this is interesting, but I didn't expect the response to my post to be so heated. sweatdrop I still plan to post some more of my thoughts here, and people are welcome to join in (politely). I just didn't know if Phade wanted a big character debate in her journal.
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:25 am
11linda Wasn't meant as an insult I just don't hid my feelings, and I get that you can change and fix and blah blah blah, whatever you wish. I beleive characters come to you, not that you create the character. I would never change a character to please anyone. But then again this is I. You are right we all think diffrent and I have the right to speak my mind however I please. I am not trying to come off rude, or anything, don't like opinions, don't read them. I don't think I miss read, you are just trying to make up for what you said by changing it around as what you appear to do to characters. We all think diffrent I can handle that, I don't like the way you think, I can't correct you nor can I try. I am just basing my opinions off of your words. Your words speak for themselves you shouldn't have to elaborate to get a point across. You basically said you make a character, they are your tools, you throw them away when they don't seem good enough, because you cannot incorporate them right. Which is fine you can do that. I don't throw away characters, I think you just couldn't tell their story correctly because you kept trying to change them. You do not create a character or at least that is not how I see it. All characters come to you. Usually when people make up their own character they turn out like crap, or they are to much like that, that has already been done. I can step back and see when people are right, someone telling me, "Oh, your character is crap," I would ignore and not even look into it. If they tell me I need more detail, or that they don't get something those are things I would change. Changing a whole thing to satisfy a few people, which you pretty much said you did is completely diffrent. Just goes to show that you don't believe in your writing and others opinions are better than your original ones I believe in what fist comes to mind, how I see a character when I first get them is like how you see a person in real life when you meet them. They may not be that way always, but they showed that side first. You can think how you want, you can hate my reply. I don't agree to anything, I state my mind and I state it well. I am a debater, and I don't give in. I am as hard headed as anyone you would ever meet. I hope we can continue this discussion with anyone who wants to participate without being rude or offensive. smile First, I'd like to point out that I didn't change what I said, and that I stand by everything I said in my first post. I'm not trying to convince anyone my way is better, or put down anyone who works differently than me. You might learn something by being more open to new ways of thinking, even if you ultimately disagree. I changed a character based on feedback because I agreed with the feedback and felt it would improve the book. It has nothing to do with "not believing in my work." I believe I always have room for improvement no matter how awesome I think the first draft is. I also accept that other people have smart ideas, some of which--yes--may be better than my ideas. There is nothing wrong with that, nor does it mean anything about my work. Everyone has room for improvement, everyone can be inspired by a new suggestion or idea. I find it interesting that you say you would ignore negative feedback if it relates to your characters not being believable. I feel that viewpoint can hinder improvement. I think accepting and understanding criticism, then learning to apply it even when it means doing a lot of hard work, is so important. Ignoring certain kinds of comments means you aren't considering why people felt that way about your characters overall. Revision is so much more than changing a detail here or clarifying something there. If you're writing for fun, you can do whatever you want and not worry so much about learning to apply criticism. But when an editor tells you your character isn't working, you can't say "well I'll just fiddle with a few details and it will be fine" if the problem requires a complete rewrite. Some editors have had authors combine two characters into a single character. So just keep an open mind, and perhaps lay off judging work you haven't read. heart
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:47 am
Being open to new ideas is a good way to be brain washed like the rest of the world, the include the united states where I am from. I stick by my ideas, no one else's. I don't think I can keep this peaceful to be honest, because I just don't agree. My way may not be best for you, or anyone, but I am sticking by it. If you are so open to new ideas than why not see from my point of view. I can see your point of view I just do not agree, why would I try something I don't agree with. That is like a straight person trying to be gay, it doesn't work.
Honestly if you change a character, a whole character off of a few reviews (or one since that is what it sounds like) it just shows that you don't agree with your own work, that your original character was crap, that you created so you had to take someone else's character by taking their advice to change it.
I never said that the first draft is perfect, it never is. You have to edit a story a million and one times to get it perfect, if perfection is even possible. The main thing is the STORY and the CHARACTERS STAY THE SAME. You change those you change everything, which is just in my opinion, stupid, a waist of time to write something and than re-due the whole thing into something it never was.
I can understand critism just fine, and I wasn't talking about them believe believable. Someone having a problem with a characters actions and personality, that is what I would ignore. If the character isn't believable I would go back and write it better as the character, not change the character to satisfy them.
I'm sorry,I just have to say it get pissed if you want. You are implying that I said I didn't take criticism, that I ignored it, I said nothing about that. I can understand and take full on criticism everyday from an actual writing site with good writers instead of some crap fan-fiction site that has to base stories off of already made characters and crap.
The hardest thing it criticism I will admit, but I deal with it better than most, if I don't agree and I make them state their opinion more clearly, if I still don't agree, then I am not going to change my story. After all YOU CAN NOT SATIFY EVERYONE. Don't even try if you have twenty people who like the story and the one that says it is s**t are you going to throw it out? No you are not you will just shrug it off and continue with what you are doing.
For fun? You have to write for fun, that is the only way to be a writer and if an editor which I doubt who is the one who told you to change your story said my character wasn't working out I would find I new editor or yeah, go through and re-due the emotion, the feelings, but all in line keeping the character the same.
You are breaking your whole story if you change your character in the way you did. I don't break, I bend, but I will not break and allow someone you or anyone else say that my writing doesn't work because of a character. Besides that you are just getting us off topic.
We were talking how you said your characters were nothing but rocks. A brick, a pile of s**t.
My mind is open, but I don't keep it open long to opinions that are just laughable and stupid.
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:03 am
*Sighs*
Actually...you can change characters after the first draft. It's one of the key elements of the Uni course I'm taking September. It's about fleshing your character out more and such but is still change. I respect that you did that, Racheling, to your character! If I see major flaws in my character then I will run away from it. I think it can make a great change, after all re-writing is all for making it better. Sometimes we writers have to change stuff we love in order to please a bigger audience.
If someone has constructive critism about my work, whether there is a massive plot hole or my character just isn't all there, I will listen and change. If one person spots it, then surely may other are? I like people ripping apart my work in a constructive way as I know it will be better for it in the end. My characters will be better.
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DesertRoseFallen Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:09 am
Excuse me, I can't beleive this s**t, you are no better than the one a be writers in the writer's forums of this site. Changing a character just because a few people don't like it. There are a lot of people in the world, just plan stupid...
all these people who say they have or are going to be published, yet by the way they acted and treat there books, it doesn't seem fun anymore. I write because it is fun, so what? I like it and if people like reading it that is good to. If I can get published, great.
Unlike all of you I WOULD NEVER CHANGE MY STORY THAT I ENJOYED SO MUCH TO GIVE AN EDITOR OR A PUBLISHING COMPANY THE RIGHTS TO PRINT IT. I WOULDN'T BE PROUD OF MYSELF IF I LET THAT HAPPEN.
Be all you can be, when your book is printed and you reread it and find out that wasn't the book you wanted printed you be sorry. People will be reading s**t.
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:24 am
Linda, you've again called my work s**t and my opinions stupid. If you can tone back on the continuous insulting of opposing viewpoints, I'm happy to keep talking. You can be passionate about your viewpoints without putting down other people's.
I think a good rule of thumb when discussing writing on the internet is that if you don't know anything about someone's writing, don't make sweeping assumptions about the quality of the work and who they've had reading it.
I believe in rewriting the entire story/plot if it makes the book better. I believe in doing the same with characters. But throwing out a character and rewriting them doesn't mean you wasted time. I learn something with every revision, I improve with every revision, and this all carries over to new projects. I still make mistakes, but fewer of the same ones.
I personally do not write just for fun. I have fun writing, but I write with the goal of making it a career. I realize this is sometimes a controversial viewpoint, and I can see it is one you strongly disagree with, but while I do have fun writing, it is also hard work. There are times when I've been through revisions so many times I don't want to look at the book again, but I do. Because I believe in the book and want it to go somewhere, and I want people to read it.
But I also want it to be the best it can be, and that it can be hard work. And for me, it means I have to sit down and focus even when I'm stuck and don't feel like working through a tough problem. I love writing, but it's not always fun for me. I treat it like a job--but a job I love.
You seem to think that any changes will make the writer miserable or is somehow a travesty if the change was requested by someone else. That's not the case. Editors work with writers to make the books better. It's a joint effort, though the writers always have final say--but if an editor suggests something that would improve your book, why wouldn't you do it?
You continue to say that I'm changing characters based on the opinions of a few people, and I keep reminding you that I accept constructive criticism that I agree with and believe will make the book better.
What would make me the most sorry is if I ignored people's suggestions and got my book published, then realized later how much better it could have been if I had taken their advice and done a rewrite.
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DesertRoseFallen Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:27 am
11linda, I must ask you to respect everyone's opinions.
I am sorry you feel that way, and I understand fully that is your opinion from your heart. Yes writing is fun for me but I've been writing for around ten years now and you pick things up, you see it as a hobby.
Personally, I haven't had to change a character. No one has ever asked me to. Yet, if numerous people spotted something wrong in my character, I would change it for the better. I love what my readers pick out and I fully encourage them to keep doing it. It makes me a better writer to accept constructive criticism.
*Sighs* I'm not a wannabe writer, that I do stand by. I've been writing more than half my life and listening and learning from others got me into one of the top ten Universities in the country for my writing. (However, didn't like the type of course in the end and went for another writing course). We are all writers, we all just have different opinions.
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:45 am
Yeah, you don't know me well enough to understand.
I don't need to read your work to know anything, you basically told me you change your characters to satisfy others even though you loved the character, I am not fighting your writing ability more like you mind set for editing.
Well keep revising all you want, I honestly by your tone you will never be satisfied with your work, because you don't believe in your work and have to keep editing every little thing about it to make others happy. You will never finish a book that way. To be honest I don't see how you finished a book with the way you are talking about redoing it seems to me you would be one of those people who throws everything away...
I write with the same goal, but I enjoy writing and that comes first. I am not going to write something I don't enjoy. You don't think it is hard work? It is only hard work because that is what you make it. I don't care you can do whatever you want, you will never make it with the way you act, but good luck trying.
How can you beleive in a book if you re-due everything so many times. It will not even be the same book. It is a waste I will say it again. JUST A WASTE OF YOUR TIME.
Doesn't sound like you love it, but whatever. I never said anything change, changing your characters, you are turning my words around and making it seem like I never edit which I said I do.
I do change my work with peoples requests just NOT MY CHARACTERS. I am having an editor go over my book, and she is doing a great job, I am grateful for all the work she does, but if she tells me to re-due the whole character I would reject.
I am done, you have your opinions and I have mine, but most of the people I talk to agree with me, so you do what you want I hope you are happy with your book if you EVER finish it.
DesertRoseFallen so happy you been writing so long, and yet you are still on this site arguing what? That you believe your own original character will never be good enough.
Writing and being an author are to diffrent things. I have been writing since I was three but I have started writing books when I was nine. You are a write if you write anything at all. It doesn't make you good and it doesn't make you an author, anyone can write a book. Anyone can revise a book over and over it doesn't mean you will make it anywhere. Good luck trying.
Oh you are in a top collage, good for you, I am 16 with dyslexia i'm just happy to finally be able to spell important, hope all teh money you spent on your fancy collage will pay off.
Well I am done, and your opinion will not get you far
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:48 am
lol.
Right, well maybe this can get back to being a discussion now. Take care, Linda.
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