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 Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:19 am
That's for them to decide, not us. I was just making a point and using China as an example earlier. If they want freedoms then THEY must do something about it such in the case of Tibet protesting that China occupies them its NOT ARE JOB to go in and destroy there government. IF THEY WANT CHANGE then they can approach it from many ways. We from other countries have no right to impose are beliefs on anyone. Dio777 wrote: Quote: Why should I not assume that? Do Chinese people not deserve these rights ? They deserve what they want to deserve if they want change then THEY CAN CHANGE THERE GOVERNMENT and not rely on other countries to do it for them. Your approaching this argument from a "weird" perspective I use weird because i don't know where your coming from but anyway you have no right to tell them that they should be exactly like us. There a Communist Country and have a right to be Communist if the people approve of it. If they want to be a Democracy then they can change their government or overthrow it. We have no say and as such we must respect there traditions, customs and beliefs. That Muslim thing you mentioned while I personally hate those thing you mentioned they have a right to express them selves within their countries laws. We have no right to go in and cause trouble in a country we aren't apart of. If the missionary's aren't allowed to preach there religion then they shouldn't If the people in the country want to listen then they will change there government and change the laws we don't need to interfere with another country we aren't apart of.
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:03 am
Zslone2 That's for them to decide, not us. I was just making a point and using China as an example earlier. If they want freedoms then THEY must do something about it such in the case of Tibet protesting that China occupies them its NOT ARE JOB to go in and destroy there government. IF THEY WANT CHANGE then they can approach it from many ways. We from other countries have no right to impose are beliefs on anyone. Dio777 wrote: Quote: Why should I not assume that? Do Chinese people not deserve these rights ? They deserve what they want to deserve if they want change then THEY CAN CHANGE THERE GOVERNMENT and not rely on other countries to do it for them. Your approaching this argument from a "weird" perspective I use weird because i don't know where your coming from but anyway you have no right to tell them that they should be exactly like us. There a Communist Country and have a right to be Communist if the people approve of it. If they want to be a Democracy then they can change their government or overthrow it. We have no say and as such we must respect there traditions, customs and beliefs. That Muslim thing you mentioned while I personally hate those thing you mentioned they have a right to express them selves within their countries laws. We have no right to go in and cause trouble in a country we aren't apart of. If the missionary's aren't allowed to preach there religion then they shouldn't If the people in the country want to listen then they will change there government and change the laws we don't need to interfere with another country we aren't apart of. Proof that the Chinese are capapable of overthrowing their own government ? Could the US have defeated the armies of Great Britian, had France not supported them by opening up another front ? Arguably not and France was certainly meddling in another countries affairs. Yet again i've had a straw man argument thrown at me; I, at no point, suggested that we have a right to impose, our values upon them. To send people in to challenge and undermine their authoritarian systems sure, but at no point did I say we should use force or wield authority against them. Having said this, thats not to say I dont think we should use force to dismantle a totalitarian state, just that this isnt my argument, and nor is it being suggested by illegal missionaries peacefully spreading the bible. This is about allowing the Chinese people to actually hear the relgious/political ideas that they might otherwise not hear unless brave men and women come from the west to break the law and open up a dialogue. How can they be saved by Jesus Christ, if theyve never heard of him ? or else only heard lies and falsehoods about him spread through the Chinese media, charging him as being, I dont know, a method of spreading western imperialism. How can they they take arms against their own government, if educted individuals, with powerful political ideas put the notion into their head ? You seem to believe that all governments are by necessity accountable to their people: Zslone2 If the missionary's aren't allowed to preach there religion then they shouldn't If the people in the country want to listen then they will change there government and change the laws we don't need to interfere with another country we aren't apart of. How can the people of Saudi Arabia force the hands of their Royal rulers, and why would they fight to hear an opinion that they have possibly been indoctrinated to believe is total anathema ot their relgion. When people are being executed on the grounds of their sexuality, their politics and their relgion, how can the Liberal Democracies, the Anglo-Saxon, English speaking powers that be sit idly by and tolerate such behaviour ? But I digress. In accordance with my own ethics, the people of China have just as much of a right to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ as I did, and they have just as much of a right to rejct, it as I did. No one is suggesting we impose our values on anyone. Peaceful Chrsitian missions to china, though illegal according to Chinese law, do not amount to force or an imposition of Christian values.
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:05 am
dio777 Zslone2 That's for them to decide, not us. I was just making a point and using China as an example earlier. If they want freedoms then THEY must do something about it such in the case of Tibet protesting that China occupies them its NOT ARE JOB to go in and destroy there government. IF THEY WANT CHANGE then they can approach it from many ways. We from other countries have no right to impose are beliefs on anyone. Dio777 wrote: Quote: Why should I not assume that? Do Chinese people not deserve these rights ? They deserve what they want to deserve if they want change then THEY CAN CHANGE THERE GOVERNMENT and not rely on other countries to do it for them. Your approaching this argument from a "weird" perspective I use weird because i don't know where your coming from but anyway you have no right to tell them that they should be exactly like us. There a Communist Country and have a right to be Communist if the people approve of it. If they want to be a Democracy then they can change their government or overthrow it. We have no say and as such we must respect there traditions, customs and beliefs. That Muslim thing you mentioned while I personally hate those thing you mentioned they have a right to express them selves within their countries laws. We have no right to go in and cause trouble in a country we aren't apart of. If the missionary's aren't allowed to preach there religion then they shouldn't If the people in the country want to listen then they will change there government and change the laws we don't need to interfere with another country we aren't apart of. Proof that the Chinese are capapable of overthrowing their own government ? Could the US have defeated the armies of Great Britian, had France not supported them by opening up another front ? Arguably not and France was certainly meddling in another countries affairs. Yet again i've had a straw man argument thrown at me; I, at no point, suggested that we have a right to impose, our values upon them. To send people in to challenge and undermine their authoritarian systems sure, but at no point did I say we should use force or wield authority against them. Having said this, thats not to say I dont think we should force to dismantle a totalitarian state, just that this isnt my argument, and nor is it being suggested by illegal missionaries peacefully spreading the bible. This is about allowing the Chinese people to actually hear the relgious/political ideas that they might otherwise not hear unless brave men and women come from the west to break the law and open up a dialogue. How can they be saved by Jesus Christ, if theyve never heard of him ? or else only heard lies and falsehoods about him spread through the Chinese media, charging him as being, I dont know, a method of spreading western imperialism. How can they they take arms against their own government, if educted individuals, with powerful political ideas put the notion into their head ? You seem to believe that all governments are by necessity accountable to their people: Zslone2 If the missionary's aren't allowed to preach there religion then they shouldn't If the people in the country want to listen then they will change there government and change the laws we don't need to interfere with another country we aren't apart of. How can the people of Saudi Arabia force the hands of their Royal rulers, and why would they fight to hear an opinion that they have possibly been indoctrinated to believe is total anathema ot their relgion. When people are being executed on the grounds of their sexuality, their politics and their relgion, how can the Liberal Democracys, the Anglo-Saxon, English speaking powers that be sit idly by and tolerate such behaviour ? But I digress. In accordance with my own ethics, the people of China have just as much of a right to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ as I did, and they have just as much of a right to rejct, it as I did. No one is suggesting we impose our values on anyone. Peaceful Chrsitian missions to china, though illegal according to Chinese law, do not amount to force or an imposition of Christian values. If the Chinese could overthrow their dynasty during the Boxer Rebellion I'm pretty sure they could do the same thing today.
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:09 am
-Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden dio777 Zslone2 That's for them to decide, not us. I was just making a point and using China as an example earlier. If they want freedoms then THEY must do something about it such in the case of Tibet protesting that China occupies them its NOT ARE JOB to go in and destroy there government. IF THEY WANT CHANGE then they can approach it from many ways. We from other countries have no right to impose are beliefs on anyone. Dio777 wrote: Quote: Why should I not assume that? Do Chinese people not deserve these rights ? They deserve what they want to deserve if they want change then THEY CAN CHANGE THERE GOVERNMENT and not rely on other countries to do it for them. Your approaching this argument from a "weird" perspective I use weird because i don't know where your coming from but anyway you have no right to tell them that they should be exactly like us. There a Communist Country and have a right to be Communist if the people approve of it. If they want to be a Democracy then they can change their government or overthrow it. We have no say and as such we must respect there traditions, customs and beliefs. That Muslim thing you mentioned while I personally hate those thing you mentioned they have a right to express them selves within their countries laws. We have no right to go in and cause trouble in a country we aren't apart of. If the missionary's aren't allowed to preach there religion then they shouldn't If the people in the country want to listen then they will change there government and change the laws we don't need to interfere with another country we aren't apart of. Proof that the Chinese are capapable of overthrowing their own government ? Could the US have defeated the armies of Great Britian, had France not supported them by opening up another front ? Arguably not and France was certainly meddling in another countries affairs. Yet again i've had a straw man argument thrown at me; I, at no point, suggested that we have a right to impose, our values upon them. To send people in to challenge and undermine their authoritarian systems sure, but at no point did I say we should use force or wield authority against them. Having said this, thats not to say I dont think we should force to dismantle a totalitarian state, just that this isnt my argument, and nor is it being suggested by illegal missionaries peacefully spreading the bible. This is about allowing the Chinese people to actually hear the relgious/political ideas that they might otherwise not hear unless brave men and women come from the west to break the law and open up a dialogue. How can they be saved by Jesus Christ, if theyve never heard of him ? or else only heard lies and falsehoods about him spread through the Chinese media, charging him as being, I dont know, a method of spreading western imperialism. How can they they take arms against their own government, if educted individuals, with powerful political ideas put the notion into their head ? You seem to believe that all governments are by necessity accountable to their people: Zslone2 If the missionary's aren't allowed to preach there religion then they shouldn't If the people in the country want to listen then they will change there government and change the laws we don't need to interfere with another country we aren't apart of. How can the people of Saudi Arabia force the hands of their Royal rulers, and why would they fight to hear an opinion that they have possibly been indoctrinated to believe is total anathema ot their relgion. When people are being executed on the grounds of their sexuality, their politics and their relgion, how can the Liberal Democracys, the Anglo-Saxon, English speaking powers that be sit idly by and tolerate such behaviour ? But I digress. In accordance with my own ethics, the people of China have just as much of a right to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ as I did, and they have just as much of a right to rejct, it as I did. No one is suggesting we impose our values on anyone. Peaceful Chrsitian missions to china, though illegal according to Chinese law, do not amount to force or an imposition of Christian values. If the Chinese could overthrow their dynasty during the Boxer Rebellion I'm pretty sure they could do the same thing today. I dont see how it follows that because something was possible then, it must be possible now.
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:20 am
HA! AND U SAY TO ME ARE THEY WORTH SAVING! I call this statement Hippocratic Quote: I don't see how it follows that because something was possible then, it must be possible now. You can't come in and preach about them hearing the words of the Gospel when you don't even believe in their own power. If they want to hear the words of your God then they can come to America to hear them they are allowed to leave the country and go to a different one. Thats the whole problem with illegal missionarys THE people of the country are most likely able to Leave there country on business or as a Tourist and go to church or a Synagogue or w/e place of worship there is. I don't like the idea of anyway going to another country to spread their own personal beliefs if you wanna spread your beliefs because you think your doing a good thing look where it has led us in the past. All those rebellions were because of those people violating the law. What happened to "Love thy Neighbor" if your gonna love them then let them believe what they wanna believe when it comes to Religion.
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:29 am
Zslone2 HA! AND U SAY TO ME ARE THEY WORTH SAVING! I call this statement Hippocratic Quote: I don't see how it follows that because something was possible then, it must be possible now. You can't come in and preach about them hearing the words of the Gospel when you don't even believe in their own power. If they want to hear the words of your God then they can come to America to hear them they are allowed to leave the country and go to a different one. Thats the whole problem with illegal missionarys THE people of the country are most likely able to Leave there country on business or as a Tourist and go to church or a Synagogue or w/e place of worship there is. I don't like the idea of anyway going to another country to spread their own personal beliefs if you wanna spread your beliefs because you think your doing a good thing look where it has led us in the past. All those rebellions were because of those people violating the law. What happened to "Love thy Neighbor" if your gonna love them then let them believe what they wanna believe when it comes to Religion. Hippocratic ?? I shall do no harm ? Mystifying confused Anyway, so's ya know, the fact that 'you dont like it' or that 'I dont follow the bible' does not actually have any bearing upon the validity of my argument. I'd also like to know how most Chinese people would be able to afford to leave their country, do you have any idea of the level of poverty your average Chinese villager lives in ? Edit: Regardless, even if they could travel, it still doesnt make it wrong for people to break the law in orderto preach to them in their own land. Plus, as I stated earlier, how could anyone seek out something theyre unaware of ?
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:05 pm
dio777 -Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden dio777 Zslone2 That's for them to decide, not us. I was just making a point and using China as an example earlier. If they want freedoms then THEY must do something about it such in the case of Tibet protesting that China occupies them its NOT ARE JOB to go in and destroy there government. IF THEY WANT CHANGE then they can approach it from many ways. We from other countries have no right to impose are beliefs on anyone. Dio777 wrote: Quote: Why should I not assume that? Do Chinese people not deserve these rights ? They deserve what they want to deserve if they want change then THEY CAN CHANGE THERE GOVERNMENT and not rely on other countries to do it for them. Your approaching this argument from a "weird" perspective I use weird because i don't know where your coming from but anyway you have no right to tell them that they should be exactly like us. There a Communist Country and have a right to be Communist if the people approve of it. If they want to be a Democracy then they can change their government or overthrow it. We have no say and as such we must respect there traditions, customs and beliefs. That Muslim thing you mentioned while I personally hate those thing you mentioned they have a right to express them selves within their countries laws. We have no right to go in and cause trouble in a country we aren't apart of. If the missionary's aren't allowed to preach there religion then they shouldn't If the people in the country want to listen then they will change there government and change the laws we don't need to interfere with another country we aren't apart of. Proof that the Chinese are capapable of overthrowing their own government ? Could the US have defeated the armies of Great Britian, had France not supported them by opening up another front ? Arguably not and France was certainly meddling in another countries affairs. Yet again i've had a straw man argument thrown at me; I, at no point, suggested that we have a right to impose, our values upon them. To send people in to challenge and undermine their authoritarian systems sure, but at no point did I say we should use force or wield authority against them. Having said this, thats not to say I dont think we should force to dismantle a totalitarian state, just that this isnt my argument, and nor is it being suggested by illegal missionaries peacefully spreading the bible. This is about allowing the Chinese people to actually hear the relgious/political ideas that they might otherwise not hear unless brave men and women come from the west to break the law and open up a dialogue. How can they be saved by Jesus Christ, if theyve never heard of him ? or else only heard lies and falsehoods about him spread through the Chinese media, charging him as being, I dont know, a method of spreading western imperialism. How can they they take arms against their own government, if educted individuals, with powerful political ideas put the notion into their head ? You seem to believe that all governments are by necessity accountable to their people: Zslone2 If the missionary's aren't allowed to preach there religion then they shouldn't If the people in the country want to listen then they will change there government and change the laws we don't need to interfere with another country we aren't apart of. How can the people of Saudi Arabia force the hands of their Royal rulers, and why would they fight to hear an opinion that they have possibly been indoctrinated to believe is total anathema ot their relgion. When people are being executed on the grounds of their sexuality, their politics and their relgion, how can the Liberal Democracys, the Anglo-Saxon, English speaking powers that be sit idly by and tolerate such behaviour ? But I digress. In accordance with my own ethics, the people of China have just as much of a right to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ as I did, and they have just as much of a right to rejct, it as I did. No one is suggesting we impose our values on anyone. Peaceful Chrsitian missions to china, though illegal according to Chinese law, do not amount to force or an imposition of Christian values. If the Chinese could overthrow their dynasty during the Boxer Rebellion I'm pretty sure they could do the same thing today. I dont see how it follows that because something was possible then, it must be possible now. The Dynasty had a lot of power and strength over the many thousand years. It soon weakened during the Qi Dynasty. Like the Dynasties, the communistic rule will also weaken, especially with many of the youths going out and protesting. :3 Give it time.
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:05 pm
Look chick. This is starting to annoy me that your ignoring what I say (or it seems so) and continuing to argue that what they don't know they can't ever know unless someone comes along and tells them from somewhere else. Look if they want change badly then change will happen. People shouldn't fear governments. Governments should fear people because there voice will always be heard the loudest. You or anyone who thinks its ok to go to a country and preach about a religion they have outlawed is stupid. I know you love your religion as do I but i don't go preaching about how there religion is wrong so they should join mine to be in the right religion. Love thy Neighbor even if thy neighbor doesn't agree with you, you must love him so says the bible (i think it does) Don't go and actively try to convert him to your religion because you think what he believes is wrong. If they wanna convert To Christianity then they'll ask about it and make it so people can come and preach to them. So it seems at this very moment they could care less about Christianity it has been introduced in almost every country some accept it others don't. Only time will tell if Christianity will be accepted. Japan was introduced to it and almost everyone rejected it and continued to believe in Shinto or Buddhist, some converted. Let time take its course we need not shape a foreign nations history they can do it all there own. There is never a need for people to go in and attempt to convert what they believe on others. Its bad Karma to convert people unless they really wanna convert from there own educated decision.
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:13 pm
Zslone2 Look chick. This is starting to annoy me that your ignoring what I say (or it seems so) and continuing to argue that what they don't know they can't ever know unless someone comes along and tells them from somewhere else. Look if they want change badly then change will happen. People shouldn't fear governments. Governments should fear people because there voice will always be heard the loudest. You or anyone who thinks its ok to go to a country and preach about a religion they have outlawed is stupid. I know you love your religion as do I but i don't go preaching about how there religion is wrong so they should join mine to be in the right religion. Love thy Neighbor even if thy neighbor doesn't agree with you, you must love him so says the bible (i think it does) Don't go and actively try to convert him to your religion because you think what he believes is wrong. If they wanna convert To Christianity then they'll ask about it and make it so people can come and preach to them. So it seems at this very moment they could care less about Christianity it has been introduced in almost every country some accept it others don't. Only time will tell if Christianity will be accepted. Japan was introduced to it and almost everyone rejected it and continued to believe in Shinto or Buddhist, some converted. Let time take its course we need not shape a foreign nations history they can do it all there own. There is never a need for people to go in and attempt to convert what they believe on others. Its bad Karma to convert people unless they really wanna convert from there own educated decision. Leave Dio alone, you'll never win an argument against an M&R reg. As much as I HATE missionaries because of the belief that if you don't accept Jesus into your heart you are going to hell... some of them are doing good work in other countries. There are people in this world who will never know anything besides hates because they do not have the materials necessary to learn about other religions. I don't agree with trying to convert others but I do agree with teaching good morals. Also, why do you type G-d? Are you a Jew? Trust me, I don't type G-d for the lulz of it. You're a polytheist so I want to know why you adopted this practise that you've obviously seen me do, I'm not a polytheist
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:24 pm
-Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden dio777 -Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden dio777 Zslone2 That's for them to decide, not us. I was just making a point and using China as an example earlier. If they want freedoms then THEY must do something about it such in the case of Tibet protesting that China occupies them its NOT ARE JOB to go in and destroy there government. IF THEY WANT CHANGE then they can approach it from many ways. We from other countries have no right to impose are beliefs on anyone. Dio777 wrote: They deserve what they want to deserve if they want change then THEY CAN CHANGE THERE GOVERNMENT and not rely on other countries to do it for them. Your approaching this argument from a "weird" perspective I use weird because i don't know where your coming from but anyway you have no right to tell them that they should be exactly like us. There a Communist Country and have a right to be Communist if the people approve of it. If they want to be a Democracy then they can change their government or overthrow it. We have no say and as such we must respect there traditions, customs and beliefs. That Muslim thing you mentioned while I personally hate those thing you mentioned they have a right to express them selves within their countries laws. We have no right to go in and cause trouble in a country we aren't apart of. If the missionary's aren't allowed to preach there religion then they shouldn't If the people in the country want to listen then they will change there government and change the laws we don't need to interfere with another country we aren't apart of. Proof that the Chinese are capapable of overthrowing their own government ? Could the US have defeated the armies of Great Britian, had France not supported them by opening up another front ? Arguably not and France was certainly meddling in another countries affairs. Yet again i've had a straw man argument thrown at me; I, at no point, suggested that we have a right to impose, our values upon them. To send people in to challenge and undermine their authoritarian systems sure, but at no point did I say we should use force or wield authority against them. Having said this, thats not to say I dont think we should force to dismantle a totalitarian state, just that this isnt my argument, and nor is it being suggested by illegal missionaries peacefully spreading the bible. This is about allowing the Chinese people to actually hear the relgious/political ideas that they might otherwise not hear unless brave men and women come from the west to break the law and open up a dialogue. How can they be saved by Jesus Christ, if theyve never heard of him ? or else only heard lies and falsehoods about him spread through the Chinese media, charging him as being, I dont know, a method of spreading western imperialism. How can they they take arms against their own government, if educted individuals, with powerful political ideas put the notion into their head ? You seem to believe that all governments are by necessity accountable to their people: Zslone2 If the missionary's aren't allowed to preach there religion then they shouldn't If the people in the country want to listen then they will change there government and change the laws we don't need to interfere with another country we aren't apart of. How can the people of Saudi Arabia force the hands of their Royal rulers, and why would they fight to hear an opinion that they have possibly been indoctrinated to believe is total anathema ot their relgion. When people are being executed on the grounds of their sexuality, their politics and their relgion, how can the Liberal Democracys, the Anglo-Saxon, English speaking powers that be sit idly by and tolerate such behaviour ? But I digress. In accordance with my own ethics, the people of China have just as much of a right to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ as I did, and they have just as much of a right to rejct, it as I did. No one is suggesting we impose our values on anyone. Peaceful Chrsitian missions to china, though illegal according to Chinese law, do not amount to force or an imposition of Christian values. If the Chinese could overthrow their dynasty during the Boxer Rebellion I'm pretty sure they could do the same thing today. I dont see how it follows that because something was possible then, it must be possible now. The Dynasty had a lot of power and strength over the many thousand years. It soon weakened during the Qi Dynasty. Like the Dynasties, the communistic rule will also weaken, especially with many of the youths going out and protesting. :3 Give it time. I hope so, I really do. But lets not get too off topic, this thread is about whether its wrong to travel illegally into another country and proselytise. I dont feel as though my arguments have been addressed at all, beyond some people arguing "well its the law". I know its the law, but the law is not always right, and it can be argued that it is in fact incredibly noble if not a moral obligation by some peoples standards to oppose tyrannical laws that are an affront to human dignity. On a side note, I think it was Britain and her allies that actually broke the back of Imperial China, admittedly not for the most noble reasons, and certianly not with a view towards a Communist revolution. Once again as was true with the American Revolutionary war there were external pressures that allowed for the revolution to be successful.
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:58 pm
I say G-d because I seen everyone else doing it so i assumed out of respect that i should. But Anyway I see your point in the previous post.
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:10 pm
Zslone2 I say G-d because I seen everyone else doing it so i assumed out of respect that i should. But Anyway I see your point in the previous post. Yeah, don't do it. Type God like everyone else if you're referring to the Abrahamic God.
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:01 pm
dio777 -Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden dio777 Someoneiknow dio777 Is'nt this a matter of free speech ? How could I condemn any man for airing his beliefs, peacefully, in a country that is actively repressing those freedoms that I believe are inherent to each and every human being ? As a secularist I would regard any such man a martyr, regardless of what relgious/irreligious beliefs he is preaching. Not every place is America, and thus, you should follow their rules and laws. They do not all have freedom of speech. I'm not condemning that person, but I also will not condone their acts, they stepped into a hostile situation, voluntarily, and decided to try and kindle a greater fire. Thus, I will not give them the honor of being called a martyr. Also, do you not think that God will open an area up in His own due time for missionary work? We do not need to go in their words a blazing and stir up contention, that area will open up in God's due time, not our own. Okay, I think I can approach this on two levels, firstly my ethicial/political inclinations as a secular atheist and secondly in how Jesus suggested that you yourselves as Christians should behave. Before that though, could you tell me why either of us should follow their rules ? I personally believe that bad laws are there to be broken, ignored and otherwise disobeyed. Youre looking at this as a given law barring you from action, but what if a a law was specifically demanding an unchristian, even a sinful course of action ? I'd ask you to withdraw any assetion that we should follow the law simply because its the law. I believe that my rights as a human beings are not granted by any particular govenrment. As I said earlier rights are inhrent to each and every human being, no matter their relgious beliefs or where they travel. If we accept that rights are granted by a government then we also have it accept that they can be taken away, at which points they are of course no longer rights, because rights by there own definition are inalienable. Anything else is a priveledge to be taken away, whenever a particualar government ses fit. Now for you as a Christian Jesus does indeed teach a certain level of co-operation with mans laws, in taxes to Caeser. Mark 12:17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. And indeed it would behoove you to do so, but lets first ask the question; are the immortal souls of men Caesers due ? As for god opening up an area, yes of ocurse he will, but not in the obvious way you might expect. Wasnt Paul himself imprisoned for his beliefs ? Weren't the other early Christians murdered and persecuted for preaching their beliefs ? I dont think any man has become a martyr, through not proclaiming the Gospel and adhering to the laws of men. When people come here from other countries should the follow our laws or not? As immigrants and or tourists they are to follow the laws. That is expected of them as guests. It is rude and dishonorable for someone not to follow these rules and or laws. It's called etiquette. neutral Learn it. That said the laws in other countries aren't "bad". They shouldn't be broken either. Their laws have very strict punishment backed behind them if they are "bad". Many countries allow whipping using a bamboo stick. If you wish to stay in that country and not end up in jail, beaten or worse, then it's best to follow the rules. Remember, you are a guest in a foreign country. If you misbehave not only are you dishonoring your country, but also whatever deity you worship, and your ancestors, and the people of your home country. In democratic countries we take things like religious freedom for granted and try to impose our religion on other's because we feel it's right. When in reality, it is wrong, immoral, and in most cases....taboo. History has shown us that "witnessing", preaching, etc can change the ideas and the morals of people and cause them to rebel against their governments. Which is why countries like Iraq, China and Russia have strict laws against religious missions. It's to keep people from rebelling and to keep dissenters out. Historical examples can include but aren't limited to the Boxer Rebellion, Hideyoshi Toyotomi, rebellions of India. Also need I remind you that there are such missions that have ended in bloodshed and turmoil. Need I remind you how the Manifest Destiny in America became a failure? Going to help out another country is one thing, but if they have strict laws and even stricter punishment for proselyting, then either leave your pious beliefs at home, or don't go to that country. Just don't preach to them. I don't think preaching about Jesus and trying to convert others is worth getting beaten with a bamboo stick or having them pull of your fingernails with a weird machine or even with a bamboo stick. Do you? Yes, Early Christians were persecuted and murdered and what not. But Early Christians did the same things to the pagans, muslims, Native Americans, so forth and so on. But the question is why? The answer to this is simple, because in the areas the Christians lived in where the majority were pagan, it was because the Roman Pagans feared the Christians. They saw them as a threat. The same can be said about the Christians in Mideval Europe during the Inquisitions, Witch Trials and even the Crusades. In short be respectful to the host countries, follow their rules and that even means don't preach to others. Help out with the countries needs but for your own safety, remember that every life is precious even your own. Throwing that away will make your beliefs worthless. Throwing your life away because of a belief in a savior will become worthless. However helping those in need is more important than a belief, helping others shows that you are a good person, versus saying you're a good person. A more passionate argument against freedom of speech I have never seen. Who among you could balance a human beings right to air his political/religious views without fear of violence or incarceration, against some percieved duty to be courteuos and find free speech wanting ? With regards to foreigners following the law in my own country I can think of several occasions where i would in fact appolaud them for breaking our own laws. For example, when the Westboro Baptist Church wanted to send a party to protest at the funeral of a gay man held here in Britain, I condemned in equal measure the wickedness of the WBC for proposing such a thing and the totalitarian behaviour of the British government in forbidding it. It was not only the WBC's right to picket the funeral that was infringed but also my right to wait at the airport for them and throw every last ounce of venom and abuse I could at such disgusting bigots. And who said anything about imposing beliefs on anybody ? Were talking about the right to air your beliefs and try to convince others in liberal debate, no one least of all me suggested anybody had the right to force people to believe anything. I also dont understand why your supporting Chinas right to suppress freedom of speech on account of it being a great method of suppresing rebeliion confused Lastly youre incorrect to say that no laws are wrong. Morality is subjective, whilst a group of Wahabi Muslims in Saudi Arabia would preach Sharia law and the righteousness of hanging homosexuals and stoning to death adulterors, I myself and I suspect you would see this as being very wrong indeed. You also haven't addressed my argument that its perfectly accetable to ignore temporal laws, in pursuit of spreading the gospel. As much as your argument is valid just as much as the other persons, That there makes your argument somewhat less substantial just because many people regard these individuals rude, and crossing the edge too far. They disregard other people's rights and say other people are infringing on theirs.
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:24 am
Someoneiknow dio777 -Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden dio777 Someoneiknow dio777 Is'nt this a matter of free speech ? How could I condemn any man for airing his beliefs, peacefully, in a country that is actively repressing those freedoms that I believe are inherent to each and every human being ? As a secularist I would regard any such man a martyr, regardless of what relgious/irreligious beliefs he is preaching. Not every place is America, and thus, you should follow their rules and laws. They do not all have freedom of speech. I'm not condemning that person, but I also will not condone their acts, they stepped into a hostile situation, voluntarily, and decided to try and kindle a greater fire. Thus, I will not give them the honor of being called a martyr. Also, do you not think that God will open an area up in His own due time for missionary work? We do not need to go in their words a blazing and stir up contention, that area will open up in God's due time, not our own. Okay, I think I can approach this on two levels, firstly my ethicial/political inclinations as a secular atheist and secondly in how Jesus suggested that you yourselves as Christians should behave. Before that though, could you tell me why either of us should follow their rules ? I personally believe that bad laws are there to be broken, ignored and otherwise disobeyed. Youre looking at this as a given law barring you from action, but what if a a law was specifically demanding an unchristian, even a sinful course of action ? I'd ask you to withdraw any assetion that we should follow the law simply because its the law. I believe that my rights as a human beings are not granted by any particular govenrment. As I said earlier rights are inhrent to each and every human being, no matter their relgious beliefs or where they travel. If we accept that rights are granted by a government then we also have it accept that they can be taken away, at which points they are of course no longer rights, because rights by there own definition are inalienable. Anything else is a priveledge to be taken away, whenever a particualar government ses fit. Now for you as a Christian Jesus does indeed teach a certain level of co-operation with mans laws, in taxes to Caeser. Mark 12:17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. And indeed it would behoove you to do so, but lets first ask the question; are the immortal souls of men Caesers due ? As for god opening up an area, yes of ocurse he will, but not in the obvious way you might expect. Wasnt Paul himself imprisoned for his beliefs ? Weren't the other early Christians murdered and persecuted for preaching their beliefs ? I dont think any man has become a martyr, through not proclaiming the Gospel and adhering to the laws of men. When people come here from other countries should the follow our laws or not? As immigrants and or tourists they are to follow the laws. That is expected of them as guests. It is rude and dishonorable for someone not to follow these rules and or laws. It's called etiquette. neutral Learn it. That said the laws in other countries aren't "bad". They shouldn't be broken either. Their laws have very strict punishment backed behind them if they are "bad". Many countries allow whipping using a bamboo stick. If you wish to stay in that country and not end up in jail, beaten or worse, then it's best to follow the rules. Remember, you are a guest in a foreign country. If you misbehave not only are you dishonoring your country, but also whatever deity you worship, and your ancestors, and the people of your home country. In democratic countries we take things like religious freedom for granted and try to impose our religion on other's because we feel it's right. When in reality, it is wrong, immoral, and in most cases....taboo. History has shown us that "witnessing", preaching, etc can change the ideas and the morals of people and cause them to rebel against their governments. Which is why countries like Iraq, China and Russia have strict laws against religious missions. It's to keep people from rebelling and to keep dissenters out. Historical examples can include but aren't limited to the Boxer Rebellion, Hideyoshi Toyotomi, rebellions of India. Also need I remind you that there are such missions that have ended in bloodshed and turmoil. Need I remind you how the Manifest Destiny in America became a failure? Going to help out another country is one thing, but if they have strict laws and even stricter punishment for proselyting, then either leave your pious beliefs at home, or don't go to that country. Just don't preach to them. I don't think preaching about Jesus and trying to convert others is worth getting beaten with a bamboo stick or having them pull of your fingernails with a weird machine or even with a bamboo stick. Do you? Yes, Early Christians were persecuted and murdered and what not. But Early Christians did the same things to the pagans, muslims, Native Americans, so forth and so on. But the question is why? The answer to this is simple, because in the areas the Christians lived in where the majority were pagan, it was because the Roman Pagans feared the Christians. They saw them as a threat. The same can be said about the Christians in Mideval Europe during the Inquisitions, Witch Trials and even the Crusades. In short be respectful to the host countries, follow their rules and that even means don't preach to others. Help out with the countries needs but for your own safety, remember that every life is precious even your own. Throwing that away will make your beliefs worthless. Throwing your life away because of a belief in a savior will become worthless. However helping those in need is more important than a belief, helping others shows that you are a good person, versus saying you're a good person. A more passionate argument against freedom of speech I have never seen. Who among you could balance a human beings right to air his political/religious views without fear of violence or incarceration, against some percieved duty to be courteuos and find free speech wanting ? With regards to foreigners following the law in my own country I can think of several occasions where i would in fact appolaud them for breaking our own laws. For example, when the Westboro Baptist Church wanted to send a party to protest at the funeral of a gay man held here in Britain, I condemned in equal measure the wickedness of the WBC for proposing such a thing and the totalitarian behaviour of the British government in forbidding it. It was not only the WBC's right to picket the funeral that was infringed but also my right to wait at the airport for them and throw every last ounce of venom and abuse I could at such disgusting bigots. And who said anything about imposing beliefs on anybody ? Were talking about the right to air your beliefs and try to convince others in liberal debate, no one least of all me suggested anybody had the right to force people to believe anything. I also dont understand why your supporting Chinas right to suppress freedom of speech on account of it being a great method of suppresing rebeliion confused Lastly youre incorrect to say that no laws are wrong. Morality is subjective, whilst a group of Wahabi Muslims in Saudi Arabia would preach Sharia law and the righteousness of hanging homosexuals and stoning to death adulterors, I myself and I suspect you would see this as being very wrong indeed. You also haven't addressed my argument that its perfectly accetable to ignore temporal laws, in pursuit of spreading the gospel. As much as your argument is valid just as much as the other persons, That there makes your argument somewhat less substantial just because many people regard these individuals rude, and crossing the edge too far. They disregard other people's rights and say other people are infringing on theirs. I dont think this argument carries any weight really, it seems to hinge on my argument being false because I support the WBC's right to free speech. Now we dont need free speech to talk about the soccer scores, or whinge about the weather, so surely if free speech does exist then it exists precisely to allow these people to air views that you feel are "rude" or "crossing the edge to far". I would certainly choose far stronger, more visceral and indeed more offensive language to denounce them then you chose...and once again its thanks to free speech that I can. I will never espouse silencing my critics, no matter how abhorrent their views. Three reasons spring to mind: 1. To allow the state to silence them, would be to establish a political principle that would allow the state to silence myself should it feel that my own views are, to use your words again "rude" or "crossing the edge to far". 2. Because if what im advocating is as true as I believe it to be, what have I to fear from my opponent. So long as there is free and open debate, I believe the truth will attend to itself. 3. As i've asserted many times before, in particular regards to hate preachers, and fascists, sunlight has been and will always be the best disinfectant.
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:17 pm
dio777 Someoneiknow dio777 -Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden dio777 Okay, I think I can approach this on two levels, firstly my ethicial/political inclinations as a secular atheist and secondly in how Jesus suggested that you yourselves as Christians should behave. Before that though, could you tell me why either of us should follow their rules ? I personally believe that bad laws are there to be broken, ignored and otherwise disobeyed. Youre looking at this as a given law barring you from action, but what if a a law was specifically demanding an unchristian, even a sinful course of action ? I'd ask you to withdraw any assetion that we should follow the law simply because its the law. I believe that my rights as a human beings are not granted by any particular govenrment. As I said earlier rights are inhrent to each and every human being, no matter their relgious beliefs or where they travel. If we accept that rights are granted by a government then we also have it accept that they can be taken away, at which points they are of course no longer rights, because rights by there own definition are inalienable. Anything else is a priveledge to be taken away, whenever a particualar government ses fit. Now for you as a Christian Jesus does indeed teach a certain level of co-operation with mans laws, in taxes to Caeser. Mark 12:17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. And indeed it would behoove you to do so, but lets first ask the question; are the immortal souls of men Caesers due ? As for god opening up an area, yes of ocurse he will, but not in the obvious way you might expect. Wasnt Paul himself imprisoned for his beliefs ? Weren't the other early Christians murdered and persecuted for preaching their beliefs ? I dont think any man has become a martyr, through not proclaiming the Gospel and adhering to the laws of men. When people come here from other countries should the follow our laws or not? As immigrants and or tourists they are to follow the laws. That is expected of them as guests. It is rude and dishonorable for someone not to follow these rules and or laws. It's called etiquette. neutral Learn it. That said the laws in other countries aren't "bad". They shouldn't be broken either. Their laws have very strict punishment backed behind them if they are "bad". Many countries allow whipping using a bamboo stick. If you wish to stay in that country and not end up in jail, beaten or worse, then it's best to follow the rules. Remember, you are a guest in a foreign country. If you misbehave not only are you dishonoring your country, but also whatever deity you worship, and your ancestors, and the people of your home country. In democratic countries we take things like religious freedom for granted and try to impose our religion on other's because we feel it's right. When in reality, it is wrong, immoral, and in most cases....taboo. History has shown us that "witnessing", preaching, etc can change the ideas and the morals of people and cause them to rebel against their governments. Which is why countries like Iraq, China and Russia have strict laws against religious missions. It's to keep people from rebelling and to keep dissenters out. Historical examples can include but aren't limited to the Boxer Rebellion, Hideyoshi Toyotomi, rebellions of India. Also need I remind you that there are such missions that have ended in bloodshed and turmoil. Need I remind you how the Manifest Destiny in America became a failure? Going to help out another country is one thing, but if they have strict laws and even stricter punishment for proselyting, then either leave your pious beliefs at home, or don't go to that country. Just don't preach to them. I don't think preaching about Jesus and trying to convert others is worth getting beaten with a bamboo stick or having them pull of your fingernails with a weird machine or even with a bamboo stick. Do you? Yes, Early Christians were persecuted and murdered and what not. But Early Christians did the same things to the pagans, muslims, Native Americans, so forth and so on. But the question is why? The answer to this is simple, because in the areas the Christians lived in where the majority were pagan, it was because the Roman Pagans feared the Christians. They saw them as a threat. The same can be said about the Christians in Mideval Europe during the Inquisitions, Witch Trials and even the Crusades. In short be respectful to the host countries, follow their rules and that even means don't preach to others. Help out with the countries needs but for your own safety, remember that every life is precious even your own. Throwing that away will make your beliefs worthless. Throwing your life away because of a belief in a savior will become worthless. However helping those in need is more important than a belief, helping others shows that you are a good person, versus saying you're a good person. A more passionate argument against freedom of speech I have never seen. Who among you could balance a human beings right to air his political/religious views without fear of violence or incarceration, against some percieved duty to be courteuos and find free speech wanting ? With regards to foreigners following the law in my own country I can think of several occasions where i would in fact appolaud them for breaking our own laws. For example, when the Westboro Baptist Church wanted to send a party to protest at the funeral of a gay man held here in Britain, I condemned in equal measure the wickedness of the WBC for proposing such a thing and the totalitarian behaviour of the British government in forbidding it. It was not only the WBC's right to picket the funeral that was infringed but also my right to wait at the airport for them and throw every last ounce of venom and abuse I could at such disgusting bigots. And who said anything about imposing beliefs on anybody ? Were talking about the right to air your beliefs and try to convince others in liberal debate, no one least of all me suggested anybody had the right to force people to believe anything. I also dont understand why your supporting Chinas right to suppress freedom of speech on account of it being a great method of suppresing rebeliion confused Lastly youre incorrect to say that no laws are wrong. Morality is subjective, whilst a group of Wahabi Muslims in Saudi Arabia would preach Sharia law and the righteousness of hanging homosexuals and stoning to death adulterors, I myself and I suspect you would see this as being very wrong indeed. You also haven't addressed my argument that its perfectly accetable to ignore temporal laws, in pursuit of spreading the gospel. As much as your argument is valid just as much as the other persons, That there makes your argument somewhat less substantial just because many people regard these individuals rude, and crossing the edge too far. They disregard other people's rights and say other people are infringing on theirs. I dont think this argument carries any weight really, it seems to hinge on my argument being false because I support the WBC's right to free speech. Now we dont need free speech to talk about the soccer scores, or whinge about the weather, so surely if free speech does exist then it exists precisely to allow these people to air views that you feel are "rude" or "crossing the edge to far". I would certainly choose far stronger, more visceral and indeed more offensive language to denounce them then you chose...and once again its thanks to free speech that I can. I will never espouse silencing my critics, no matter how abhorrent their views. Three reasons spring to mind: 1. To allow the state to silence them, would be to establish a political principle that would allow the state to silence myself should it feel that my own views are, to use your words again "rude" or "crossing the edge to far". 2. Because if what im advocating is as true as I believe it to be, what have I to fear from my opponent. So long as there is free and open debate, I believe the truth will attend to itself. 3. As i've asserted many times before, in particular regards to hate preachers, and fascists, sunlight has been and will always be the best disinfectant. One, this is just to say that if you want to prove something, you prove it at the headquarters, not the outsourcing place. WBC travels for miles to go picket and what not, but they do it at the wrong areas. If you go to picket, do it at the outspoken people's place, or headquarters of the organization. Not the funeral of some little old lady who made a comment about gays. That's tacky and rude and doesn't hold any weight whatsoever, but just makes you look like a jerk. Two, they are listed as a hate group, on par with neonazis. Three, many of their "protests" do not remain peaceful. You through a whole bunch of passionate people into a group that is passionate on a different subject, get them fighting about it, and then you see a riot on your hands. Hence why WBC is banned from ever entering Great Britain.
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Reply
