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 Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:40 pm
I think they can. You could use magic to keep the flames of your boilers burning without coal. You could also use it to keep their airships aloft without helium or hydrogen and to make repairs to it. Plus you could make tea and food appear from nothing you could even make gold to trade with.
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Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:15 pm
edward231 I think they can. You could use magic to keep the flames of your boilers burning without coal. You could also use it to keep their airships aloft without helium or hydrogen and to make repairs to it. Plus you could make tea and food appear from nothing you could even make gold to trade with. Brims stone works best for the flame, the one about the airship maybe, the tea and food and the gold may bring about a paradox, which you do not want.
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Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:40 am
Freedom the wolf Brims stone works best for the flame, the one about the airship maybe, the tea and food and the gold may bring about a paradox, which you do not want. I see your point with the Brims stone and the gold, but what harm could congering upa cup of tea possibly do?
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Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:37 pm
Well, when a paradox occurs it depends on how bad it is, to show the effects....for all we know it may open a rift into the abyss and let loss a century old demon who will devour your soul.If it is minor physical harm can happen.
Covert magic is easier, since it barely will create a paradox, like a technomancer wearing a generator on his back to provide a souce of electricity to cast lightning through a pair of gloves.Since it could possible explained it may or may not bring a paradox around.
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Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:09 pm
Xiam "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Strictly speaking, anything in Steampunk could be counted as magic, so long as you don't explain it. Why? Because use of the word "magic" is only to describe that which is unexplained. For instance, Harry Potter's "magic" could very well be counted as a science, as we know at least part of how they make it work - spells, and the like. But it's never certain what makes wizards and what makes Muggles (assumed to be genetics), and HOW spells allow magic to work, or where this power really comes from. Strictly speaking; just because something is indistinguishable from magic does not mean it is magic. Magic is not so much what is unexplained. It is what is unexplain able. If you can explain it (even if you chose not to) it's not really magic, is it?
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Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:11 pm
edward231 I think they can. You could use magic to keep the flames of your boilers burning without coal. You could also use it to keep their airships aloft without helium or hydrogen and to make repairs to it. Plus you could make tea and food appear from nothing you could even make gold to trade with. Doesn't that ruin the whole steampunk element? Surely if you go that far, and get rid of all the steam and science completely you're just left with Fantasy with Victorian flavour. Nothing wrong with that, it's just not really steampunk.
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Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:57 am
Well, I suppose I'm a bit late to the party, and I've stated before, but I thought I just might try posting my views in the correct place this time.
To me, the greatest danger of magic in steampunk is that it runs the risk of turning into spellpunk, with all machines powered by magic, not steam. Also, as the captain said, if magic is commonplace there is no reason to develop the technological marvels which define the steampunk genre. Where I differ, is that I have no problem with vast and powerful magic existing. However, in my personal blend of fantasy and steam, "old magic" is a rare and wonderful thing. The knowledge of it is scattered and hard to find, it's practitioners are few...mostly highly dedicated scholars, and it's practice is far from easy.
As a rule, I say that a magical solution must at worst be no more viable than a technological one in a steampunk (or other tech-based) setting. At best, it should be impractical, though by no means ineffective (for example, magical healing might work far better than medicine, but finding a magical healer more costly and time consuming than consulting a regular physician). Though an imperfect example, Howl's Moving Castle illustrates the concept well. There are weavers of spells, but they are few in number (Howl himself actually serves as resident mage to three different cities). Despite the presence of magic, one sees advanced technology in the form of some fantastic flying machines.
Why? Machines can be made by any common craftsman, if he has the plans, magic takes careful study and skill. It's like the choice between hiring an experienced caddy or a lecturing physics professor to improve your golf game. Either one can give you useful advice. The professor's will probably be better, but will also cost you more and may take longer.
So...certainly, magic by all means. Please, however, do not stretch the limits of believability to breaking. If there is magic, there must be a reason for the continued popularity of steam. This is where a cost to benefit trade off must be established.
I hope that makes sense, and that I have not repeated anyone else to badly.
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Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:36 pm
Rukario_Rue To me, the greatest danger of magic in steampunk is that it runs the risk of turning into spellpunk, with all machines powered by magic, not steam. Also, as the captain said, if magic is commonplace there is no reason to develop the technological marvels which define the steampunk genre. Where I differ, is that I have no problem with vast and powerful magic existing. However, in my personal blend of fantasy and steam, "old magic" is a rare and wonderful thing. The knowledge of it is scattered and hard to find, it's practitioners are few...mostly highly dedicated scholars, and it's practice is far from easy.
Verily! Magic must be treated with respect, and not thrown around willy-nilly. This is all the more necessary when dealing with a setting with a high technological element (like Steampunk Fantasies).
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Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:02 am
Captain Amaranth Doesn't that ruin the whole steampunk element? Surely if you go that far, and get rid of all the steam and science completely you're just left with Fantasy with Victorian flavour. Nothing wrong with that, it's just not really steampunk. I'm not taking out the steam element I'm only making airship travel safer and cheaper. How would magic creat a paradox I beleive you're talking about time travel. What I'm talking about is closer to Alchemy then magic, what happens is you turn the air into food, water, fire, and lifting gas.
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Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:00 am
edward231 Captain Amaranth Doesn't that ruin the whole steampunk element? Surely if you go that far, and get rid of all the steam and science completely you're just left with Fantasy with Victorian flavour. Nothing wrong with that, it's just not really steampunk. I'm not taking out the steam element I'm only making airship travel safer and cheaper. Apologies, I thought you were considering applying such changes to a steampunk setting (in which case my point would still stand). If you throw enough magic at anything it becomes safe and cheap.
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Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:48 am
Captain Amaranth edward231 Captain Amaranth Doesn't that ruin the whole steampunk element? Surely if you go that far, and get rid of all the steam and science completely you're just left with Fantasy with Victorian flavour. Nothing wrong with that, it's just not really steampunk. I'm not taking out the steam element I'm only making airship travel safer and cheaper. Apologies, I thought you were considering applying such changes to a steampunk setting (in which case my point would still stand). If you throw enough magic at anything it becomes safe and cheap.
Actually, I rather like the FFIX (Final Fantasy 9, for the uninitiated) approach. The supernatural energy of Mist makes technology run, but is very dangerous. Steam power was developed as a safer alternative. I thought that the reversal was a rather novel concept.
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Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:33 pm
Imho, I think it's difficult to combine the two... I've rarely seen it done right, and I believe this is largely because they're both strong and distinct genres. They're polar opposites; steampunk is logical and has it's foundations in the rational modern world, and magic is very fantastical and otherworldly with no solid history/methodology attached.
I'm not sure if I'm making sense, but what I mean to say is this: Both have an element of adventure that would, in theory, make for a great combination, but it's just a very delicate thing to accomplish. It can be overwhelming. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be combined, but it may look silly if it's not done right.
Not too sure if this was mentioned, but Diana Wynne Jones' "Howl's Moving Castle" is a beautiful union of magic and steampunk. (Though, I think it's more magic than steampunk?) It's one of my favorite books. smile
Btw, I love Xiam's explanation. I never thought of it like that. cool
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Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:10 am
Dr. Norman Imho, I think it's difficult to combine the two... I've rarely seen it done right, and I believe this is largely because they're both strong and distinct genres. They're polar opposites; steampunk is logical and has it's foundations in the rational modern world, and magic is very fantastical and otherworldly with no solid history/methodology attached. I'm not sure if I'm making sense, but what I mean to say is this: Both have an element of adventure that would, in theory, make for a great combination, but it's just a very delicate thing to accomplish. It can be overwhelming. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be combined, but it may look silly if it's not done right. Not too sure if this was mentioned, but Diana Wynne Jones' "Howl's Moving Castle" is a beautiful union of magic and steampunk. (Though, I think it's more magic than steampunk?) It's one of my favorite books. smile Btw, I love Xiam's explanation. I never thought of it like that. cool
Actually, I did mention Howl's. I was basing my observations off of the animated film, as I have not had the good fortune to chance across the book, but it does seem a good mix of the two. To me it seemed that the magi, though powerful, were few in number and working under strong limitations. Such that technology, though not necessarily as effective as magic, was more reliable and had fewer risks. From the book, would you say this interpretation holds?
As I have said before, magic can be added effectively only when there is a clear balance of power. In order for it to remain steampunk, technology needs be at least equal in viability to magic. If magic always works best, then you no longer have steampunk, but rather fantasy, populated with a few mad inventors that love to build stupendously impractical machines.
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Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:13 pm
Rukario_Rue Actually, I did mention Howl's. I was basing my observations off of the animated film, as I have not had the good fortune to chance across the book, but it does seem a good mix of the two. To me it seemed that the magi, though powerful, were few in number and working under strong limitations. Such that technology, though not necessarily as effective as magic, was more reliable and had fewer risks. From the book, would you say this interpretation holds? As I have said before, magic can be added effectively only when there is a clear balance of power. In order for it to remain steampunk, technology needs be at least equal in viability to magic. If magic always works best, then you no longer have steampunk, but rather fantasy, populated with a few mad inventors that love to build stupendously impractical machines. Just read your past post, and I agree with everything you had to say. Your interpretation definately holds for the book, even though the use of magic is wee bit more prevalent. (They travel forward in time, through the dimension door-thing! > 3 >)
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