Welcome to Gaia! ::

I agree with Fushigi na Butterfly. Really, I don't care about the grey areas. The God that says it's "Okay to use (whatever kind) magic(k)." Is not the Lord Jesus Christ, nor the God that created you and me. End of story.

Tell me, Have you ever sat down and Asked?

Heres a good idea, and its the first time I thought of it, I'll probly to it myself. sit down, pray, and start bouncing ideas and concerns out between you and god. If you feel good about something, gods probly telling you its alright, especially when your connection is as clear as it is during prayer.

You are entitled to your opinion.

Dragongirl makes some good points. But for giving this post more substance than a "quote for truth," I have a question, for you, Ryuu, and Vincent. And I would like you both to respond to it. I know the answer to this, but I want to see if you know it. If you will so humour me.

How do you know it is God speaking to you? Ah, Satan-el is a masterful deceiver. He was once an angel, Sammael, a mighty warrior of the Light, no? He knows Heaven inside and out. He knows how God works inside and out. How do you know it is our God speaking to you, and not Satan-el, god of the world, interposing his own twist on things, masquerading as an emmisary of the Light, a speaker for Adonai?

This is what is known as one of my queer "quiet questions." It is a question that requires personal reflection, and it is asked with an glance aside, a failed meeting of eyes. It is a question that demands honesty, not only with me, but with yourself, and also, with our God. I feel I should identify the question, as online, you cannot hear my tone of voice, or read my body language. I ask these questions of you, because I constantly ask them of myself.

(Forgive me if this has been asked before.)

*raises eyebrow* Ah, a test. I've always been bad at tests. I'm primarily a B student. ninja

In case you guys haven't noticed, I'm a liberal Christian. I'm constantly tugging and pulling at the things that church tradition have taught me that doesn't feel right, that there has to be more to God and my relationship with him than sitting in prayer and relfection. He made me to be active, to challenge anything that I feel doesn't fit him and my idea of him. And I have many different ideas of God. My father, my savior, my king, my companion, my judge. There are so many things we don't know, we aren't MEANT to know, so many answers I seek to find. The biggest one is my role as a Christian. I'm not a good witness. I know that. I can't speak well, and no matter how many times I've asked, my attempts in the traditional manner have fallen through. I don't have that kind of charisma. I have two very strong spiritual gifts: love, and warfare. Spiritual warfare.

You think I haven't prayed about it? That when I was first starting to learn I wasn't apprehensive? But, like everything else that chafes at me, it felt more wrong NOT to do it. Every time I prayed, I could FEEL the presence of God. Have you ever felt that? The weight of another body in a room where you're alone, and you feel like you're falling while standing still and you're laughing and crying all at once? That's God to me. That's how I experience him, and everyone experiences him differently. It was during intense prayer that I asked for the armor of God to protect me, for his sword and his spear to fight his battles. It was then I came away with two weights in my hands. I can feel the solid wall of energy around a good, healthy church, and it's so comforting when I'm down. It's part of why so many people feel better when they leave church. God IS there, and he's recharging your spiritual batteries. I'm just one of the ones who can find the plug at any time.

You ask my Biblical basis for this: as before, I have none. None at all. But the Spirit speaks in mysterious ways, and I don't think that that first night I would have risen from my knees feeling like I was wrapped in stiff, heavy cotton with what amonted to the hilt of a weapon in each hand if God was so set against it. I still ask for guidance. I've spoken with my pastor. But, most of all, I don't do this for myself. I do it because I know that, despite anything I might learn here and now in this life, God is so much more and so much bigger. Whatever I do, I know he can do bigger and better - and I sincerely hope he does. The friends that I have that worship otherwise and practice energy work will see that I'm doing things that I can't possibly do... and I'll be able to tell them WHO'S doing it. I'm doing it for GOD'S glory, to bring more sheep into his fold. I'm a warrior, deep down inside, and this is the only way that I know how to do the work I feel I am meant to do. I'm also of the opinion that if God did not want me to continue in this path, he would change my heart. It's happened before. God has this way of changing you so you don't WANT to do the things that bring him pain. I really, honestly don't think this is one of them.

Sammael. Not Lucifer. [/quietly]

I thank you two for your honesty. I don't think either of you know much of my spiritual history (ah, there is an unused thread somewhere on the main guild forums page that deals with Christian magic), but I have a few reasons for asking these questions.
I was involved in witchcraft for many years, heavily and dangerously. It ruined my life, spiritually, and in the physical. I am always cautious and defensive when approaching things like this. Part of me, doesn't want anyone else to get dragged in and destroyed, and so I demand the hard questions.
Other people in the guild might not agree with me, but I believe there is a kind of magic that comes from our Creator, one given to divine spiritual beings, as well as humans, as we do exist in more than just the physical.
I understand what you say about spiritual warfare.
I don't want you to look at me as someone who is standing opposite you on this issue, but apart from the issue, observing both sides, and deciding where I stand.


Here are a few Biblical notes that have jumped out at me.

Note on "God helps those who help themselves": God is our help, because he desires it. He has put himself in that position. Psalm 60:11-12 "Give us aid against the enemy, for the help of man is worthless. With God we will gain the victory, and he will trample down our enemies." And how can you "help yourself" when "the help of man is worthless"?

A possible support for you is Luke 10:17-19. And also, one that has been referenced in passing, Ephesians 6:10-17, the Armour of God. I personally do not think those are pretty words meant to be passed by, but a daily ritual that needs to be done.

I had a list of verses that referenced how one could know the difference between God (or a creature of God) speaking or an enemy. I have lost it, though. It's a good thing for everyone to know; I'll try to reconstruct it in the near future. sad A few things I remember is that there is never fear, doubt or uncertainty when it is God speaking. When Satan-el speaks of Jesus, he will never say his name, and his communication is followed by uncomfortability (is that a word?), fear, and guilt. (Does anyone know the verses that those correspond to?)

Vincent, as your reply dealt more with feeling God, is that what you base your belief on--your feelings? The belief that what you are doing is God-inspired.

But thank you again for your honesty, given at the whim of a random guy. (and also, as it is fair, you can question me as well)

*sigh* Does everyone except for me have intersting spiritual stuff happen to them? Out of curiosity, waht denom is your church? Mine, doesn't do a whole lot of prophesying.