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Perhaps you misunderstood my point then- Abortion isn't the consensual choice, the sex before being pregnant IS. This causes regnancy, thus putting the fetus into it's situation without any act by the fetus.

And as for Godslayer, which I will call you, as it is your screen name, why would we promote corruption? That is such an easy cop-out. "It will happen anyway"- people murder all the time too. Make it legal plz? Theft? Drunk driving? All those things happen despite laws against them. But my argument was not that illegalizing abortion would stop abortion form happening altogether. The goal is not to illegalize something for the sake of illegalizing it, but to protect as many feti as possible with the law. Such is the case with murder- of course it will still happen. This doesn't mean that there should be no murder laws.

first off abortion is consensual mostly (ignoring the obvious rape scenario)
and I say this because the only one with any rights to anything in this equation is the woman (not that I don't think the man shouldn't have a say in the matter)
the mass of DNA the woman carries around is not a human yet (it could be but that is far from the point)

you are trying to equate apples and oranges m8
I’m sorry it doesn't work for you but if you want we can find a way to equate abortion to murder

we would have to include every form of life
and we as humans destroy all sorts of innocent life every day
from an ant to bacteria to cows...dogs, cats...I think I've made my point

humanity has been equated to cancer by looking at the rapid decay of our planet (not that such isn't natural anyway)

so when does an "it" become a person
I say the transformation happens in the first instance the "it" makes an investment in life separate from the will of the current host

this is where many of us will disagree as we all have our own beliefs
this is not a question of morality as morality is culturally relative
this is not a medical question
this is only a question of ones own beliefs
and as far as the law goes
it is still unjust to project any one belief or set of beliefs onto another person

also we still live in a world where women are mistreated should they disobey their husbands or other family for that matter (even right here at home)
yes there are laws in most countries but culture plays a major role
that is why so many cases of abuse are not reported

our world is very complicated and a simple black and white picture will not cut the cake anymore
think about how fast our knowledge is growing these days
its exponential from only a few years ago as was a few years ago from the decade before
we have made such a giant leap in the last few hundred years and such an exponential rate that our grandparents or parents for that matter are struggling to keep up
and I'm way off track now (the concept is interesting at least)

so
what have we learned
abortion isn't always consensual
sex isn't always consensual
so why start dealing in absolutes
leave the matter in the hands of those effected (starting with the woman)

I'm in the middle. We have a huge overpopulation in the jails and it might be good. Then again it can be bad. I'm in the middle of reading The Innocent Man by John Grisham and no matter how many times I say I hate that book it has really changed my mind on the death penalty. An innocent man who has been convicted or is mentally insane or both shouldn't get the death penalty. But its the people who make that decision and once someone has been wrongly convicted they believe he or she has really actually committed the crime. To those people, the ones in jail/prison are horrible people who are not human and there for have been stripped of whatever rights they have and must be treated as such. I think we seriously need to reform the CJ system especially here in Texas.. stare

That is a good idea. And then we could breathe some economic life back into the inner cities. I'm not saying restore the old car factories but something along those lines so it won't hurt the enviroment or the people there. That way everyone will be happy and there will be less murders, rape, etc. Then there wouldn't be any economic opression. People would be able to feed their kids, etc.

In order for that change to happen we need to take care of the kids that are here who are living breathing free-thinking individuals. We need to help those who are mentally ill, diseased, abused, raped, molested etc. Because they ARE our future. The future of humanity rests on their shoulders. Their decisions can undoubtedly change the way the way the world is today and make sure the future doesn't look so bleak. (I'm not talking about feti, I'm talking about children, teenagers, toddlers, babies, the ones who society has long forgotten. The ones who society is willing to give up to make life better for something that isn't even close to be human.)

Just in case anyone wanted some reading material on the idea that abortion is correlated to socio-economic status and crime rates:

There's an awesome book called "Freakanomics" that talks about the passage of Roe v. Wade and the subsequent drop in crime 15 years later when all of the criminals that would have been born into poverty didn't get the opportunity.

As for using scriptures to back up the whole "abortion is murder" thing, you should check out the Bible passages that have to do with miscarriages. If you murder someone you get in huge trouble. If you fight with another man and accidentally hit a woman and kill her unborn baby you pay a fine. You pay a fine for killing a person's livestock too, so what does that tell you? The authors of the Bible certainly didn't consider abortions to be murder.

if your learning bio from a dictionary we have a problem m8

how about taking a class and or reading a bio textbook

"The point is, our argument is not about mentally disabled, abused or raped children, but about unborn ones. To drag that in to this discussion is unrelated in any way to the argument at hand and serves only to distract from the real argument."

The addition is very relevant
I have said many times that if we do not help those who are disabled, abused, neglected, poor, cold, hungry...the cycle will continue

The unborn are alive but not human
I say there is more to being human then just being alive and a set of DNA
A fetus has no investment in it's own life and thus is not human

see I have given a reason why I think the way I do where all you do is say
yuh huh dez is too human (sorry about the dramatization)

It is related. The fetus becomes the child that is mentally disabled or physically disabled. Am I right? To say it is irrevelant to your little plan is disgusting. That proves my theory. You pro-lifers care only about something that has no cognitive thinking as lordstar has said something that has no investment in life. What can it do besides sit inside a womb? Well? Can it do math, read, write, come up with a plan to end pollution? Well? What can it do to end suffering?

You might want to watch the Science Channel or read a biology textbook or read your scripture some more. As Rick said the bible doesn't equate abortion or miscarriage to murder. Therefore the punishment is indeed a lot less than what true murder is. But I don't think you even know how serious a rape is. You don't even know how hard it is for a rape victim to get close to anyone, a boyfriend, husband even their friends. I don't think you even care. All you care about is something that isn't even human. Something that doesn't even have the ability to help save humanity. When in reality all it is doing is leading us to our demise because one day we're going to have over-population issues and have no food source left. It is an issue that no one cares about because all they care about is something they deem as the "future". So when the fetus becomes that baby you'll just abonden it. What does it matter to you? You protected the fetus now on to protect the next. Why should you care?

Definition of human from m-w.com
1: of, relating to, or characteristic of humans
2: consisting of humans
3 a: having human form or attributes b: susceptible to or representative of the sympathies and frailties of human nature
The human fetus in the first trimester doesn't have human qualities. It's closely resemblent to that of a horse fetus or any other animal fetus. It also has no sympathy nor can it feel sympathy. It doesn't have a human form or human attributes.

Seriously look at an animal fetus in its first stages and compare that to a human fetus in its first stages (first trimester). Do they look similar or different and explain why?