Welcome to Gaia! ::

Debate/Discuss Religion

Back to Guilds

A guild devoted to discussing and debating different aspects of various world religions 

Tags: religion, faith, tolerance, discuss, debate 

Reply Religious Debate
Homosexuality Goto Page: [] [<<] [<] 1 2 3 ... 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 [>] [»|]

Quick Reply

Enter both words below, separated by a space:

Can't read the text? Click here

Submit

WickedRentSpringAwakening

PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 pm


Fallen Shemyaza
for those of you who think you can just "pray the gay away", what happens if scientists discover homosexuality is genetic and puts a boot in the a** of your religion?


Religious people have been known to have selective hearing when it comes to science so they would claim that science is evil again. You can't really win with them. confused
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:20 pm


Julri
xxEternallyBluexx
Why not? How do you know for sure it doesn't work that way?

So you think it's impossible for someone who's homosexual to turn straight? What evidence do you have for this conclusion?


Yes, it is completely impossible for someone who is gay to turn straight. The American Psychological Association came out with a 138 page report fairly recently which showed that there is no evidence suggesting that it is in any way possible for homosexuals to change their orientation. In fact, they found a great deal of evidence showing that attempting to do so is actually very harmful for gay people; the gay people who they studied who tried to change their orientation suffered from incredible depression and anxiety. When gay people try to will themselves into becoming straight, it just doesn't work. It's impossible to do and it's stupid ideas like the one that gay people can change that makes gays so much more likely to become depressed or suicidal. You may not think about it that way, but all of this hateful "gays can change" speech is literally harmful to gay people. If everyone would just accept gay people for who they are, then gay teens wouldn't be become as depressed as they do. A 1997 study showed that of the high schoolers who attempted suicide that year, 40 percent of them were gay, which is an awful lot considering that gay people only make up 3 percent of the population. And I completely blame stupid, hateful homophobes who claim that these kids can change and that they just aren't trying hard enough.

I can also speak about this from personal experience. I am a lesbian, I've always been a lesbian, even when I was little it was obvious. Nobody told me to be one and I never knew any other gay people to encourage me to be one. I just am. And since I was raised a conservative Christian and was always told that it's wrong to be gay, I tried to change. I prayed constantly, begging God to help me change. And when that didn't work, I sank into an awful depression and became next to suicidal. And looking back, it wasn't really that I was depressed about being gay; it was all of those assholes who told me that I was wrong and that I could change that made me depressed. When I finally started making friends with people who accepted me for who I was, I stopped being so depressed and I started thinking about who I am rationally. It was only when I accepted that being gay was just how God made me that I actually learned how to be happy for the first time in my life. And please don't suggest that I just didn't try hard enough not to be gay and that I would be happier if I somehow changed; you have no idea how hard I tried and if I had kept on trying I probably would have killed myself a long time ago.

And I know you're thinking "but there are people who used to be gay who are straight now." Well, there aren't. Maybe they call themselves straight and they have spouses of the opposite gender now, but just because you change what you do doesn't mean that you can change what you are. That's like saying that a short person who wears high heels is actually tall; it just doesn't make any sense. I've met people before who've claimed to be ex-gays and maybe I just have a hightened sense of gaydar, but if I'd never met these people and knew nothing about them, I would just assume they were gay. Because the fact of the matter is, you can fake it and go through the motions, but you can never change you you truly are. All articles I've read before by ex-ex-gays talk about how they could pretend that they were straight, but they could never actually change who they are. And I can't think of anything more depressing than living a lie, and that's exactly what "ex-gays" are doing.

Anyway, if you want anymore evidence than psychological studies and personal experience, then I just can't help you. If you are at all an open minded or rational person, then I'm sure you can see that whether or not it's morally acceptable to be in a gay relationship, being gay itself is not a choice and not something that can be changed.


xxEternallyBluexx
And why would it be sad for someone homosexual to want to be straight? What if they wanted to do it because they were in love with someone straight, but not attracted to them, or because their sexuality issues were seriously messing with them, or even with their family? If it bothers some homosexuals so much, and from what I've read it seems to, then I think if the option were available they shouldn't be forced to live as differently. I also think we should look to give them the option, because just like there's plastic surgery for those who really need it, there's probably homosexuals who would give a lot to not to be (for various reasons).


It's sad because I think it's healthier to just accept who you naturally are than to want to be something you're not. Imagine a teenage girl who eats healthfully and exercises but feels she's overweight. Now, either she can obsess over her weight, dieting to an extreme, over exercising, and even getting surgery. Or she can just accept that her normal body weight is more than other girls. From a psychological point of view, it just seems healthier for her to be happy with who she naturally is than to go against nature to make herself thin. It's the same with being gay; even if gay people could change, that doesn't mean they should. Just like how there's nothing wrong with weighing more than average so long as you're healthy, there's nothing wrong with being gay so long as it's who you naturally are. And in both cases, even if the teenage girl can lose weight and the gay person can become straight, they aren't the ones that should change; society should change. Once society starts looking at issue like weight or homosexuality or whatever rationally, people won't feel like they need to change and they can finally start to accept who they are and be happy about themselves. Anyway, if there was a way for gays be to become straight and they chose to take it, then fine, it's a free country, go ahead, just like how my hypothetical teenage girl has the right to obsessively become thing. It's just that I wouldn't advise it and I would never under any circumstance do it myself. I hope that made sense...

Just because it's hard doesn't make it impossible, and I'm not suggesting anyone should be 'hateful' towards people who are homosexual. Even if it is a sin, everyone sins so you have to treat them like everyone else, and if it is a sin then they should be helped out of it. If not, then I'll need a while to get used to the idea it's not before I can chime in with an opinion that way.

I don't think I'd say that, at least not that way. I don't really think you could've changed yourself, but I do think God could've changed you, and if it had been me, I would've put it in His hands and forgotton about it, because I would've figured as long as I gave it to Him it wasn't my problem. I think you were strong to try to change, but it had to be Him, not you.

I don't think you can make that call unless you're all-knowing. sweatdrop

No, I don't see that. I never claimed to be open-minded about the subject, and as for rational, I'm probably not most of the time. I don't see the point of pretending to be when most things regarding religion tend to be emotional and depend on the heart as well as the mind. Anyway, if God declares it's wrong there's gotta be a way out, and if not that I'll come to terms with that. Besides you we both know you can't provide me with absolute evidence on every case, so you can't declare an absolute like 'it's impossible'.

It did...but something feels wrong about the metaphor...
And if I was gay I'd take the medication in a heartbeat. I mean, it wouldn't be worth fighting society and my family and my upbringing and possibly my religion in my opinion. If there was a magic pill to make me stick thin, I'd take that in a heartbeat. You shouldn't fight for a part of yourself you don't like...

xxEverBluexx

6,300 Points
  • Citizen 200
  • Conversationalist 100
  • Tycoon 200

xxEverBluexx

6,300 Points
  • Citizen 200
  • Conversationalist 100
  • Tycoon 200
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:26 pm


WickedRentSpringAwakening
Fallen Shemyaza
for those of you who think you can just "pray the gay away", what happens if scientists discover homosexuality is genetic and puts a boot in the a** of your religion?


Religious people have been known to have selective hearing when it comes to science so they would claim that science is evil again. You can't really win with them. confused

@Fallen: People are neither destined by their genetic make-up or their upbringing. Those two factors combine with the person's choices to ultimately form the person. In other words, it could still be a choice.

@Awakening: Science is evil? First I've heard of it. Actually I think God made all the things we discover scientifically, and likes the fact we explore them. It's not science against God it's people's conclusions versus other people's conclusions. whee
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:04 am


xxEternallyBluexx
Just because it's hard doesn't make it impossible, and I'm not suggesting anyone should be 'hateful' towards people who are homosexual. Even if it is a sin, everyone sins so you have to treat them like everyone else, and if it is a sin then they should be helped out of it. If not, then I'll need a while to get used to the idea it's not before I can chime in with an opinion that way.

I don't think I'd say that, at least not that way. I don't really think you could've changed yourself, but I do think God could've changed you, and if it had been me, I would've put it in His hands and forgotton about it, because I would've figured as long as I gave it to Him it wasn't my problem. I think you were strong to try to change, but it had to be Him, not you.

I did try to forget about it and put it in God's hands. I did try to change for Him. I tried everything. I don't expect you to believe me, but I really truly did place all my faith in God and did it because it's what I believed God wanted me to do. And it still didn't work. I'm not saying that God can't do incredible things, I'm just saying that this apparently wasn't something he wanted to change.


xxEternallyBluexx
I don't think you can make that call unless you're all-knowing. sweatdrop

True, I'm not all-knowing, and thus anything I say is just based off of my experiences, my logic, and the things I've read. But so far all of my experiences, logic, and the things I've read seem to be telling me that gays just can't change and that none ever have. If there was some sort of scientific or psychological proof otherwise, though, I would of course be willing to hear them out.


xxEternallyBluexx
No, I don't see that. I never claimed to be open-minded about the subject, and as for rational, I'm probably not most of the time. I don't see the point of pretending to be when most things regarding religion tend to be emotional and depend on the heart as well as the mind. Anyway, if God declares it's wrong there's gotta be a way out, and if not that I'll come to terms with that. Besides you we both know you can't provide me with absolute evidence on every case, so you can't declare an absolute like 'it's impossible'.

Yes, if it's something that God has declared wrong, then it would seem that there would have to be a way out. But I just don't feel that God has declared it to be wrong, and so far nothing I've ever read on the issue has persuaded me otherwise. I've read all of the pages of this thread, and I still don't understand why being gay is wrong. I've yet to hear anyone suggest a logical reason why homosexuality is wrong or to quote a scripture proving God to be against it.


xxEternallyBluexx
It did...but something feels wrong about the metaphor...
And if I was gay I'd take the medication in a heartbeat. I mean, it wouldn't be worth fighting society and my family and my upbringing and possibly my religion in my opinion. If there was a magic pill to make me stick thin, I'd take that in a heartbeat. You shouldn't fight for a part of yourself you don't like...

Yes, you don't have to accept a part of yourself that you hate. The thing is, nobody should hate their sexual orientation. It's not like people with anger management problems or alcoholism or whatever: these are clearly destructive actions which hurt everyone around them and it's been shown time and time again that people can overcome anger and obsessive drinking. On the other hand, being gay doesn't hurt a person and doesn't hurt anyone around them and it's not something that can be changed, leading me to believe that if you are gay it's just what you're supposed to be and that you should learn to love yourself for what you are.

I can understand why if it was you who was gay and there was a way to change yourself, you would so that you wouldn't have to fight against your family, society, upbringing, and possibly your religion. The thing is, if you never fight against these things, nothing ever changes. Imagine if the women's rights movement had never taken place just because women didn't want to go against their family/society/upbringing/religion. Yes, the suffragettes' families were angry that their daughters were fighting for equality, and yes society looked down on them, and yes their upbringing taught them that women ought to be submissive and unequal, and yes their religious leaders claimed that God viewed women as less than men. But they kept on fighting, and eventually society learned to better appreciate women and people began to realize that religion doesn't necessarily teach that women should be submissive. Yes, I'm sure the fight was incredibly hard, but these women kept on fighting because they dreamed of a better world for their daughters. It's the same thing today with homosexuality. I know that not all of my family supports me now, and I know that much of society is against me, and I know my upbringing never even suggested that it would be possible for me to love a woman instead of a man, and I know that people still claim that religion and God are against me, but I have hope that someday society will learn to fully tolerate gays and that they will realize that God doesn't oppose homosexuality, and that there will be a day when gay kids don't have to feel bad about themselves and they can just be who they are. I know it's easier to just not fight it all, but I think in the long run it's what has to happen if we want this issue to finally come to rest.

Julri


Julri

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:13 am


xxEternallyBluexx
WickedRentSpringAwakening
Fallen Shemyaza
for those of you who think you can just "pray the gay away", what happens if scientists discover homosexuality is genetic and puts a boot in the a** of your religion?


Religious people have been known to have selective hearing when it comes to science so they would claim that science is evil again. You can't really win with them. confused

@Awakening: Science is evil? First I've heard of it. Actually I think God made all the things we discover scientifically, and likes the fact we explore them. It's not science against God it's people's conclusions versus other people's conclusions. whee


I think he was referring to people who ignore scientific findings just because they think it goes against their religion. Like how some people believe that the earth and human life are literally six thousand years old even though science has proven that that's impossible. Thus "people's conclusions versus other people's conclusions" becomes the conclusion of whether the science is right or whether their religion is right. Anyway, I think that's what he meant about people being selective when it comes to accepting science; some people will accept every scientific finding out there, except for the ones they think go against their beliefs.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:34 am


Okay though I'm of the interpretation that homosexuality is not a sin. Let's talk for a moment and assume that it is. What aspect of it is the sin? Is it the attraction, is it the act, both?

If it is the action that's the sin, wouldn't celibacy be a possible option.

Now if the attraction that makes it a sin, we start getting into some serious theological complications given what we know about homosexuality as an attraction. Since it has been observed, documented, and confirmed that homosexual attraction is part of normal sexual development, this means that homosexual attraction is natural. If the attraction is natural that would imply that God made you that way. Which would mean, that if the attraction was a sin, then God set you up to sin. So to show that God didn't set you up to sin you must show that the findings are somehow flawed, otherwise you would have to accept that God designed you to sin.

So there's only three logical options that avoid this theological complication, disprove the findings that it is natural (highly unlikely to happen), be celibate (Catholic and Orthodox stance), or just accept that maybe there actually was a misinterpretation of the texts and it's not actually a sin.

rmcdra

Loved Seeker

11,700 Points
  • Forum Sophomore 300
  • Partygoer 500
  • Contributor 150

comfylove

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:38 am


All sin is attractive to humans. Does that mean that God has set us up to sin regarding all sins?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:23 am


comfortably_dumb
All sin is attractive to humans. Does that mean that God has set us up to sin regarding all sins?

I am but a servant...

YHVH and the Satan are one, then?

Interesting idea.

...of the Cunning Flame

Cunning Witch Angus


rmcdra

Loved Seeker

11,700 Points
  • Forum Sophomore 300
  • Partygoer 500
  • Contributor 150
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:39 am


comfortably_dumb
All sin is attractive to humans. Does that mean that God has set us up to sin regarding all sins?
Sin, in Christian theology, is viewed as something that is against truth, reason, and right conscience. It is the "love of one's self at the contempt of God". So while we have the desire to sin, it is not natural but a consequence of the Fall and something we can to fix through Christ and the Church. In Christianity, at least in Catholicism, all sin can be shown to be illogical when compared to divine law. Here's the thing about homosexuality though, the attraction has been shown to be true in that it is healthy and part of normal human sexual development. This is a consequence of design not the fall. Since the attraction is normal and a healthy part of human development, this means one of two things regarding the attraction, God hardwired us to do something that is against truth, reason, and right conscience, or that homosexual attraction is not a sin. Seeing as truth cannot contradict truth in that homosexual attraction is hardwired and God would not design us in a way to be against truth, reason, and right conscious, this means the attraction is not a sin.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:36 am


Oh here we go. I can't believe I forgot about this.

God made us with sexual desires. Sexual desires existed before the fall. Since sexual desires are normal and God designed, science and psychology has found homosexual attraction to be natural and normal in human sexual development, and the truth of science and the the revealed truth from God cannot contradict. The logical conclusion is that homosexual attraction was designed by God for some unknown reason. Therefore homosexual attraction is not a sin.

So homosexual attraction cannot be a sin unless you are going to say that any sexual attraction is a sin (meaning heterosexual attraction is a sin), which is not supported by scripture, or that God designed some people to sin against there will, which means that we are judged for something that we do that is against our will (which would be equivalent to saying that breathing was a sin)

rmcdra

Loved Seeker

11,700 Points
  • Forum Sophomore 300
  • Partygoer 500
  • Contributor 150

chessiejo

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:04 am


comfortably_dumb
All sin is attractive to humans. Does that mean that God has set us up to sin regarding all sins?


when Jesus has us pray to the Father that he "lead us not into temptations", it leads me to wonder whether, if we do not pray, the father will lead us into temptation?

i trust Jesus but sometimes i am not so sure about his Dad....



sweatdrop
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:04 am


Julri
xxEternallyBluexx
WickedRentSpringAwakening
Fallen Shemyaza
for those of you who think you can just "pray the gay away", what happens if scientists discover homosexuality is genetic and puts a boot in the a** of your religion?


Religious people have been known to have selective hearing when it comes to science so they would claim that science is evil again. You can't really win with them. confused

@Awakening: Science is evil? First I've heard of it. Actually I think God made all the things we discover scientifically, and likes the fact we explore them. It's not science against God it's people's conclusions versus other people's conclusions. whee


I think he was referring to people who ignore scientific findings just because they think it goes against their religion. Like how some people believe that the earth and human life are literally six thousand years old even though science has proven that that's impossible. Thus "people's conclusions versus other people's conclusions" becomes the conclusion of whether the science is right or whether their religion is right. Anyway, I think that's what he meant about people being selective when it comes to accepting science; some people will accept every scientific finding out there, except for the ones they think go against their beliefs.


Yes, that's what I meant. Christians who don't accept what science has proven about the age of the earth and the descent of all living things say a little "Well, science and religion are separate branches and don't have anything to do with each other." You know that if it was scientifically proven that Jesus did not have a father the religious people would be all over that. There would be no "Science and religion have no place with each other." It would be all over the news and all over every Christian magazine in the world.

Hence selective hearing.

WickedRentSpringAwakening


Captain_Shinzo

6,250 Points
  • Member 100
  • Gaian 50
  • Dressed Up 200
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:10 am


xxEternallyBluexx
Julri
xxEternallyBluexx
Why not? How do you know for sure it doesn't work that way?

So you think it's impossible for someone who's homosexual to turn straight? What evidence do you have for this conclusion?


Yes, it is completely impossible for someone who is gay to turn straight. The American Psychological Association came out with a 138 page report fairly recently which showed that there is no evidence suggesting that it is in any way possible for homosexuals to change their orientation. In fact, they found a great deal of evidence showing that attempting to do so is actually very harmful for gay people; the gay people who they studied who tried to change their orientation suffered from incredible depression and anxiety. When gay people try to will themselves into becoming straight, it just doesn't work. It's impossible to do and it's stupid ideas like the one that gay people can change that makes gays so much more likely to become depressed or suicidal. You may not think about it that way, but all of this hateful "gays can change" speech is literally harmful to gay people. If everyone would just accept gay people for who they are, then gay teens wouldn't be become as depressed as they do. A 1997 study showed that of the high schoolers who attempted suicide that year, 40 percent of them were gay, which is an awful lot considering that gay people only make up 3 percent of the population. And I completely blame stupid, hateful homophobes who claim that these kids can change and that they just aren't trying hard enough.

I can also speak about this from personal experience. I am a lesbian, I've always been a lesbian, even when I was little it was obvious. Nobody told me to be one and I never knew any other gay people to encourage me to be one. I just am. And since I was raised a conservative Christian and was always told that it's wrong to be gay, I tried to change. I prayed constantly, begging God to help me change. And when that didn't work, I sank into an awful depression and became next to suicidal. And looking back, it wasn't really that I was depressed about being gay; it was all of those assholes who told me that I was wrong and that I could change that made me depressed. When I finally started making friends with people who accepted me for who I was, I stopped being so depressed and I started thinking about who I am rationally. It was only when I accepted that being gay was just how God made me that I actually learned how to be happy for the first time in my life. And please don't suggest that I just didn't try hard enough not to be gay and that I would be happier if I somehow changed; you have no idea how hard I tried and if I had kept on trying I probably would have killed myself a long time ago.

And I know you're thinking "but there are people who used to be gay who are straight now." Well, there aren't. Maybe they call themselves straight and they have spouses of the opposite gender now, but just because you change what you do doesn't mean that you can change what you are. That's like saying that a short person who wears high heels is actually tall; it just doesn't make any sense. I've met people before who've claimed to be ex-gays and maybe I just have a hightened sense of gaydar, but if I'd never met these people and knew nothing about them, I would just assume they were gay. Because the fact of the matter is, you can fake it and go through the motions, but you can never change you you truly are. All articles I've read before by ex-ex-gays talk about how they could pretend that they were straight, but they could never actually change who they are. And I can't think of anything more depressing than living a lie, and that's exactly what "ex-gays" are doing.

Anyway, if you want anymore evidence than psychological studies and personal experience, then I just can't help you. If you are at all an open minded or rational person, then I'm sure you can see that whether or not it's morally acceptable to be in a gay relationship, being gay itself is not a choice and not something that can be changed.


xxEternallyBluexx
And why would it be sad for someone homosexual to want to be straight? What if they wanted to do it because they were in love with someone straight, but not attracted to them, or because their sexuality issues were seriously messing with them, or even with their family? If it bothers some homosexuals so much, and from what I've read it seems to, then I think if the option were available they shouldn't be forced to live as differently. I also think we should look to give them the option, because just like there's plastic surgery for those who really need it, there's probably homosexuals who would give a lot to not to be (for various reasons).


It's sad because I think it's healthier to just accept who you naturally are than to want to be something you're not. Imagine a teenage girl who eats healthfully and exercises but feels she's overweight. Now, either she can obsess over her weight, dieting to an extreme, over exercising, and even getting surgery. Or she can just accept that her normal body weight is more than other girls. From a psychological point of view, it just seems healthier for her to be happy with who she naturally is than to go against nature to make herself thin. It's the same with being gay; even if gay people could change, that doesn't mean they should. Just like how there's nothing wrong with weighing more than average so long as you're healthy, there's nothing wrong with being gay so long as it's who you naturally are. And in both cases, even if the teenage girl can lose weight and the gay person can become straight, they aren't the ones that should change; society should change. Once society starts looking at issue like weight or homosexuality or whatever rationally, people won't feel like they need to change and they can finally start to accept who they are and be happy about themselves. Anyway, if there was a way for gays be to become straight and they chose to take it, then fine, it's a free country, go ahead, just like how my hypothetical teenage girl has the right to obsessively become thing. It's just that I wouldn't advise it and I would never under any circumstance do it myself. I hope that made sense...

Just because it's hard doesn't make it impossible, and I'm not suggesting anyone should be 'hateful' towards people who are homosexual. Even if it is a sin, everyone sins so you have to treat them like everyone else, and if it is a sin then they should be helped out of it. If not, then I'll need a while to get used to the idea it's not before I can chime in with an opinion that way.

I don't think I'd say that, at least not that way. I don't really think you could've changed yourself, but I do think God could've changed you, and if it had been me, I would've put it in His hands and forgotton about it, because I would've figured as long as I gave it to Him it wasn't my problem. I think you were strong to try to change, but it had to be Him, not you.

I don't think you can make that call unless you're all-knowing. sweatdrop

No, I don't see that. I never claimed to be open-minded about the subject, and as for rational, I'm probably not most of the time. I don't see the point of pretending to be when most things regarding religion tend to be emotional and depend on the heart as well as the mind. Anyway, if God declares it's wrong there's gotta be a way out, and if not that I'll come to terms with that. Besides you we both know you can't provide me with absolute evidence on every case, so you can't declare an absolute like 'it's impossible'.

It did...but something feels wrong about the metaphor...
And if I was gay I'd take the medication in a heartbeat. I mean, it wouldn't be worth fighting society and my family and my upbringing and possibly my religion in my opinion. If there was a magic pill to make me stick thin, I'd take that in a heartbeat. You shouldn't fight for a part of yourself you don't like...

and now we go back to my original argument. WHY do you say homosexuality is a sin without proof?
I'm just saying, if you want a point, have a point first.
Can you argue that homosexuality is a sin and if not, than what else do you have?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:43 am


Captain_Shinzo
xxEternallyBluexx
Julri
xxEternallyBluexx
Why not? How do you know for sure it doesn't work that way?

So you think it's impossible for someone who's homosexual to turn straight? What evidence do you have for this conclusion?


Yes, it is completely impossible for someone who is gay to turn straight. The American Psychological Association came out with a 138 page report fairly recently which showed that there is no evidence suggesting that it is in any way possible for homosexuals to change their orientation. In fact, they found a great deal of evidence showing that attempting to do so is actually very harmful for gay people; the gay people who they studied who tried to change their orientation suffered from incredible depression and anxiety. When gay people try to will themselves into becoming straight, it just doesn't work. It's impossible to do and it's stupid ideas like the one that gay people can change that makes gays so much more likely to become depressed or suicidal. You may not think about it that way, but all of this hateful "gays can change" speech is literally harmful to gay people. If everyone would just accept gay people for who they are, then gay teens wouldn't be become as depressed as they do. A 1997 study showed that of the high schoolers who attempted suicide that year, 40 percent of them were gay, which is an awful lot considering that gay people only make up 3 percent of the population. And I completely blame stupid, hateful homophobes who claim that these kids can change and that they just aren't trying hard enough.

I can also speak about this from personal experience. I am a lesbian, I've always been a lesbian, even when I was little it was obvious. Nobody told me to be one and I never knew any other gay people to encourage me to be one. I just am. And since I was raised a conservative Christian and was always told that it's wrong to be gay, I tried to change. I prayed constantly, begging God to help me change. And when that didn't work, I sank into an awful depression and became next to suicidal. And looking back, it wasn't really that I was depressed about being gay; it was all of those assholes who told me that I was wrong and that I could change that made me depressed. When I finally started making friends with people who accepted me for who I was, I stopped being so depressed and I started thinking about who I am rationally. It was only when I accepted that being gay was just how God made me that I actually learned how to be happy for the first time in my life. And please don't suggest that I just didn't try hard enough not to be gay and that I would be happier if I somehow changed; you have no idea how hard I tried and if I had kept on trying I probably would have killed myself a long time ago.

And I know you're thinking "but there are people who used to be gay who are straight now." Well, there aren't. Maybe they call themselves straight and they have spouses of the opposite gender now, but just because you change what you do doesn't mean that you can change what you are. That's like saying that a short person who wears high heels is actually tall; it just doesn't make any sense. I've met people before who've claimed to be ex-gays and maybe I just have a hightened sense of gaydar, but if I'd never met these people and knew nothing about them, I would just assume they were gay. Because the fact of the matter is, you can fake it and go through the motions, but you can never change you you truly are. All articles I've read before by ex-ex-gays talk about how they could pretend that they were straight, but they could never actually change who they are. And I can't think of anything more depressing than living a lie, and that's exactly what "ex-gays" are doing.

Anyway, if you want anymore evidence than psychological studies and personal experience, then I just can't help you. If you are at all an open minded or rational person, then I'm sure you can see that whether or not it's morally acceptable to be in a gay relationship, being gay itself is not a choice and not something that can be changed.


xxEternallyBluexx
And why would it be sad for someone homosexual to want to be straight? What if they wanted to do it because they were in love with someone straight, but not attracted to them, or because their sexuality issues were seriously messing with them, or even with their family? If it bothers some homosexuals so much, and from what I've read it seems to, then I think if the option were available they shouldn't be forced to live as differently. I also think we should look to give them the option, because just like there's plastic surgery for those who really need it, there's probably homosexuals who would give a lot to not to be (for various reasons).


It's sad because I think it's healthier to just accept who you naturally are than to want to be something you're not. Imagine a teenage girl who eats healthfully and exercises but feels she's overweight. Now, either she can obsess over her weight, dieting to an extreme, over exercising, and even getting surgery. Or she can just accept that her normal body weight is more than other girls. From a psychological point of view, it just seems healthier for her to be happy with who she naturally is than to go against nature to make herself thin. It's the same with being gay; even if gay people could change, that doesn't mean they should. Just like how there's nothing wrong with weighing more than average so long as you're healthy, there's nothing wrong with being gay so long as it's who you naturally are. And in both cases, even if the teenage girl can lose weight and the gay person can become straight, they aren't the ones that should change; society should change. Once society starts looking at issue like weight or homosexuality or whatever rationally, people won't feel like they need to change and they can finally start to accept who they are and be happy about themselves. Anyway, if there was a way for gays be to become straight and they chose to take it, then fine, it's a free country, go ahead, just like how my hypothetical teenage girl has the right to obsessively become thing. It's just that I wouldn't advise it and I would never under any circumstance do it myself. I hope that made sense...

Just because it's hard doesn't make it impossible, and I'm not suggesting anyone should be 'hateful' towards people who are homosexual. Even if it is a sin, everyone sins so you have to treat them like everyone else, and if it is a sin then they should be helped out of it. If not, then I'll need a while to get used to the idea it's not before I can chime in with an opinion that way.

I don't think I'd say that, at least not that way. I don't really think you could've changed yourself, but I do think God could've changed you, and if it had been me, I would've put it in His hands and forgotton about it, because I would've figured as long as I gave it to Him it wasn't my problem. I think you were strong to try to change, but it had to be Him, not you.

I don't think you can make that call unless you're all-knowing. sweatdrop

No, I don't see that. I never claimed to be open-minded about the subject, and as for rational, I'm probably not most of the time. I don't see the point of pretending to be when most things regarding religion tend to be emotional and depend on the heart as well as the mind. Anyway, if God declares it's wrong there's gotta be a way out, and if not that I'll come to terms with that. Besides you we both know you can't provide me with absolute evidence on every case, so you can't declare an absolute like 'it's impossible'.

It did...but something feels wrong about the metaphor...
And if I was gay I'd take the medication in a heartbeat. I mean, it wouldn't be worth fighting society and my family and my upbringing and possibly my religion in my opinion. If there was a magic pill to make me stick thin, I'd take that in a heartbeat. You shouldn't fight for a part of yourself you don't like...

and now we go back to my original argument. WHY do you say homosexuality is a sin without proof?
I'm just saying, if you want a point, have a point first.
Can you argue that homosexuality is a sin and if not, than what else do you have?

When you explain to me why homosexuality is wrong, a sin, or you shouldn't be one, than we can talk. Till then, you are arguing in the clouds.

Captain_Shinzo

6,250 Points
  • Member 100
  • Gaian 50
  • Dressed Up 200

comfylove

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:52 am


rmcdra
comfortably_dumb
All sin is attractive to humans. Does that mean that God has set us up to sin regarding all sins?
Sin, in Christian theology, is viewed as something that is against truth, reason, and right conscience. It is the "love of one's self at the contempt of God". So while we have the desire to sin, it is not natural but a consequence of the Fall and something we can to fix through Christ and the Church. In Christianity, at least in Catholicism, all sin can be shown to be illogical when compared to divine law. Here's the thing about homosexuality though, the attraction has been shown to be true in that it is healthy and part of normal human sexual development. This is a consequence of design not the fall. Since the attraction is normal and a healthy part of human development, this means one of two things regarding the attraction, God hardwired us to do something that is against truth, reason, and right conscience, or that homosexual attraction is not a sin. Seeing as truth cannot contradict truth in that homosexual attraction is hardwired and God would not design us in a way to be against truth, reason, and right conscious, this means the attraction is not a sin.
Can we really "fix" it? Because we will always sin. I do think that sin for Christians and sin for non-Christians is very different; when we sin, we are supposed to hate the sin and hate when we are in sin. However, sins of the flesh are very natural due to the Fall, like you said. It is our nature to go after sinful things because they are attractive. Sex looks nice, non-Christians are attractive, getting drunk with friends looks like a good time, etc. Sin is definitely glamorized.

Isn't it healthy to want to be sinful in some respects? I am saying, isn't it healthy and normal to want to have sex before you're married? Isn't it healthy and normal to want to drink on occasion? Isn't it healthy and normal to lust after things once and a while?

I do not think we should classify things by what is "normal and healthy" of this world. As Christians, we are not of this world, and living by its standards, I think, will only promote sin.
Reply
Religious Debate

Goto Page: [] [<<] [<] 1 2 3 ... 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 [>] [»|]
 
Manage Your Items
Other Stuff
Get GCash
Offers
Get Items
More Items
Where Everyone Hangs Out
Other Community Areas
Virtual Spaces
Fun Stuff
Gaia's Games
Mini-Games
Play with GCash
Play with Platinum