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Divash
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:56 am


shtolts tiger
I think it's totally disgusting!!!!!
It says clearly in the Torah not to be gay!


No, it doesn't. Do your reading. The Torah mentions in Leviticus 18, "You shall not lie with a man in the same manner as with a woman." Stricter interpretations can mean "No man-man sexual acts at all, end of story." More liberal interpretations can mean, "No face-to-face penetrative sex between men; the rest is fair game."

The Talmud is full of interpretations of both man-man activity and male solo activity. Some authorities forbid and some permit, but no decision is ever actually reached, which means that interpretation is still valid on all sides of the argument. Strictly speaking, only the face-to-face penetrative act between men is specifically forbidden.

Woman-woman acts, and solo female acts, are not mentioned at all in the Torah or in the rest of the Tanach. The Talmud contains basically one paragraph about woman-woman sexual acts: M'solel (literally, "scratching") is considered lewd by some authorities, not by others. It is not considered to be equivalent to sex, and therefore a m'solelet ("woman who 'scratches'" herself or another woman) may marry even a kohein (priest), even the kohein gadol (high priest), because she is still a virgin. Even the Talmud doesn't forbid a single sexual act; those who call it lewd still state that it is permitted.

BEING a homosexual is not the same as HAVING homosexual sex. It's a state of being, not a verb. BEING gay is forbidden nowhere. Not in Torah, not in the rest of Tanach, not in Mishnah, not in Gemara, not in responsa.

If you're disgusted by homosexuality, don't have homosexual sex. Asking or telling about ANY sexual act is very non-tzanuah (immodest) anyway, so let's all keep our personal details to ourselves. If you wouldn't ask a straight couple what they do in the bedroom (or kitchen, or living room, or basement), keep your nose out of what gay people do, too.

By the way, Torah also forbids eating non-kosher animals, eating kosher animals that have not been slaughtered in kosher fashion, mixing meat with dairy or even benefiting from such, eating shellfish, eating bottom-feeding fish, eating or even touching reptiles, and eating or possessing any form of leavening, no matter how small, during Passover. It forbids the blending of wool with linen in any way, in any garment, even just by sewing a linen tag into a woolen garment, or even wearing both wool and linen at the same time in different garments.

Oh, and Torah also forbids man and wife from having relations, or even touching one another or passing one another items, while the woman is menstruating, or even during the seven clean days following menstruation, until she has immersed in the mikvah. In fact, there are over 200 commandments and Talmudic laws which relate to exactly how a married (heterosexual) couple are meant to be sexual together. ONE law related to male homosexuals, and NONE related to female homosexuals. It's not that G*D hates heterosexuals or finds them disgusting; he just must feel that they need more restrictions.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:50 am


That's a lot of information! Thank you very much! biggrin

darkphoenix1247
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Divash
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:13 am


Thanks, darkphoenix1247. Feel free to stick it in Jewish Information if you like. This is a subject I'm passionate about. There are several gay, lesbian, and bisexual members of my family, and I get so angry when someone says something hurtful to them simply because they don't understand that it's (1) hurtful and (2) incorrect.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:09 pm


I read something about this in a book I read... gah...

crying WHAT WAS IT

well basicly it was like why you shouldn't hate your fellow jew. Personally my stand is that everybody already hates us, why help them?

YvetteEmilieDupont


kingpinsqeezels

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:17 pm


YvetteEmilieDupont
I read something about this in a book I read... gah...

crying WHAT WAS IT

well basicly it was like why you shouldn't hate your fellow jew. Personally my stand is that everybody already hates us, why help them?
That's a very glass half empty perspective. And plus, why should "everyone" hating us mean we should stop helping? If we would have given up on helping people during the time of Moses, what do you think would have became of the Jews? I'm just saying, that's kind of a harsh stand point.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:00 pm


kingpinsqeezels
YvetteEmilieDupont
I read something about this in a book I read... gah...

crying WHAT WAS IT

well basicly it was like why you shouldn't hate your fellow jew. Personally my stand is that everybody already hates us, why help them?
That's a very glass half empty perspective. And plus, why should "everyone" hating us mean we should stop helping? If we would have given up on helping people during the time of Moses, what do you think would have became of the Jews? I'm just saying, that's kind of a harsh stand point.


Judging by your response, I think you misunderstood what she said sweatdrop

nathan_ngl
Crew


kingpinsqeezels

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:58 pm


nathan_ngl
kingpinsqeezels
YvetteEmilieDupont
I read something about this in a book I read... gah...

crying WHAT WAS IT

well basicly it was like why you shouldn't hate your fellow jew. Personally my stand is that everybody already hates us, why help them?
That's a very glass half empty perspective. And plus, why should "everyone" hating us mean we should stop helping? If we would have given up on helping people during the time of Moses, what do you think would have became of the Jews? I'm just saying, that's kind of a harsh stand point.


Judging by your response, I think you misunderstood what she said sweatdrop
I figured maybe I had. I really hve been bad at that recently. sweatdrop

I still love you though Yvette! biggrin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:02 pm


kingpinsqeezels
nathan_ngl
kingpinsqeezels
YvetteEmilieDupont
I read something about this in a book I read... gah...

crying WHAT WAS IT

well basicly it was like why you shouldn't hate your fellow jew. Personally my stand is that everybody already hates us, why help them?
That's a very glass half empty perspective. And plus, why should "everyone" hating us mean we should stop helping? If we would have given up on helping people during the time of Moses, what do you think would have became of the Jews? I'm just saying, that's kind of a harsh stand point.


Judging by your response, I think you misunderstood what she said sweatdrop
I figured maybe I had. I really hve been bad at that recently. sweatdrop

I still love you though Yvette! biggrin


Especially because there is no reason to not love her in the first place 3nodding

nathan_ngl
Crew


Psychedelic Whisper

Friendly Dog

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:22 pm


shtolts tiger
I think it's totally disgusting!!!!!
It says clearly in the Torah not to be gay!


rolleyes So? im bi, I am still religious... The whole thing about God hating gays is bull..... God loves everyone. It says so in the Torah and The Bible.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:12 pm


nathan_ngl
kingpinsqeezels
nathan_ngl
kingpinsqeezels
YvetteEmilieDupont
I read something about this in a book I read... gah...

crying WHAT WAS IT

well basicly it was like why you shouldn't hate your fellow jew. Personally my stand is that everybody already hates us, why help them?
That's a very glass half empty perspective. And plus, why should "everyone" hating us mean we should stop helping? If we would have given up on helping people during the time of Moses, what do you think would have became of the Jews? I'm just saying, that's kind of a harsh stand point.


Judging by your response, I think you misunderstood what she said sweatdrop
I figured maybe I had. I really hve been bad at that recently. sweatdrop

I still love you though Yvette! biggrin


Especially because there is no reason to not love her in the first place 3nodding
Exactly! XD

kingpinsqeezels


darkphoenix1247
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:56 pm


xd You're a bit biased, though.


Instead, I can say it. blaugh
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:40 pm


AngelofDeath22787
shtolts tiger
I think it's totally disgusting!!!!!
It says clearly in the Torah not to be gay!


rolleyes So? im bi, I am still religious... The whole thing about God hating gays is bull..... God loves everyone. It says so in the Torah and The Bible.

...Which are the same thing, right? sweatdrop

Or by bible, did you mean tanak?

nathan_ngl
Crew


YvetteEmilieDupont

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:51 pm


kingpinsqeezels
nathan_ngl
kingpinsqeezels
YvetteEmilieDupont
I read something about this in a book I read... gah...

crying WHAT WAS IT

well basicly it was like why you shouldn't hate your fellow jew. Personally my stand is that everybody already hates us, why help them?
That's a very glass half empty perspective. And plus, why should "everyone" hating us mean we should stop helping? If we would have given up on helping people during the time of Moses, what do you think would have became of the Jews? I'm just saying, that's kind of a harsh stand point.


Judging by your response, I think you misunderstood what she said sweatdrop
I figured maybe I had. I really hve been bad at that recently. sweatdrop

I still love you though Yvette! biggrin

YaY I love you too ::huggles:: (( surprised oh noes we love eachother wahmbulance better call the uber othodox jewish scary bearded people!))

yea, I still haven't found where that line is, but basicly it was saying what I said lol. Don't be hatin your own people man, cause you gotta stick together like pb&J.

Nathan he probably means tanak, bible, torah, bleh bleh blhe the whole shebang.

Ooo there was something really good MJL a whlie back, it was talking about how conservative and reformed rabbi's were saying hwo they can't ban gays from being rabbis or stuff like that because it was embarresing and degrading and you aren't supose to do that.

Then the other guy was saying how perhaps people have been misinterpetting the stories in which the idea that gay people are bad. That perhaps the big guy playing x-box upstairs was meaning guys whom know they are straight just go and sleep with other men for the hell of it. You know, they weren't talking about men whom are naturally attracked to other men.

OH you know I have this theory that moses and gandhi are home boys upstairs 3nodding They're probably pimps too 3nodding getting paid back for given up stuff with their wives 3nodding >.> probably soo not JGG friendly, but I've been dieing to say that since two shabboses (lol) ago!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:33 pm


YvetteEmilieDupont
YaY I love you too ::huggles:: (( surprised oh noes we love eachother wahmbulance better call the uber othodox jewish scary bearded people!))


It always amazes me a little when people say that the Orthodox frighten them. Is it because they wear suits? So do most people who work in offices. Is it because the men have beards? So do a lot of non-Orthodox men. Is it because they wear hats? Forty years ago, everyone wore hats whenever leaving the house, and only removed them to go indoors. Is it because they often seem to be quiet, a bit preoccupied? Chances are, they're mentally going over a bit of Talmud, or simply focusing on another matter in their minds -- it's just that they can do it without having to wear headphones to block out street sounds.

Is it because they don't deliberately meet eyes or strike up conversations, especially with members of the opposite sex? That's to maintain their own privacy, and to respect the space of others, and not be pushy. Is it because they look serious? Not everyone is jolly and gregarious all the time. When someone's out on the street, surrounded by strangers, they may not necessarily be the life of the party. But get them home, with their own family and friends, and they're very warm, and very expressive. Just like many other people, they simply need to warm up to a person before deciding whether to be open with them.

Seriously, we're not scary folks, we Orthodox. Even if we do look a bit serious, don't make the mistake of thinking it's because we're unhappy, or that we disapprove of everything around us. We just tend to try to keep to ourselves, respect the space and the privacy of others, and not push ourselves onto the world at large.

Divash
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kingpinsqeezels

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:15 pm


Ah hun, I don't think she meant much by it. I always get so excited when I see Orthodox people around town, not scared, just because I feel less alone. But the truth is, all that attire and quietness can be intimidating, especially towards people like me, who hate awkward silence and are CONSTANTLY talking. Truth is, if I saw you in the street, I'd smile at you and maybe say hello, but if I was in a room with you, I'd want to have a conversation and I'd want to talk about something. I would feel nervous if it was just someone contimplating something...Personally.
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