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 Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:50 am
Hi I just want to mention that so far you guys have been debating about the effects of christianity. What about the other religion? Like pagans? And marshjazz is right there is at least a good handful of religions that worship multiple deitys. Children should not be taught religion until they are old enough to make their own decisions. I think the main problem with religion today is that certain religions (ex. christianity) think they are more correct in thier beliefs and therefor, try to shove thier faith down other people's throat. Which is wrong. Let people believe what they want to.
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Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:20 am
We have been debating the effects of all religions. Just that the main religion that does anything other than sit there (like paganism) is christianity atleast in America. Also Christianity is also one of the most practiced religions in the world. Paganism is hardly practiced anymore. There are a few people (compared to Christianity) but that is it.
And you can't say it is only christianity other religions do it too. It all boils down to our beliefs are better than yours so you should believe in this. Even you with pagans, when the day ends you always want more people on your side of the football field, or atleast the really fat kid in the corner.
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Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:12 pm
Well thats an interesting statement, but the truth is I could care less who stand where on any feild. I fully aware that a lot of religions think they are better. Religion can be a wonderful thing , if used properly, but the problem is hardly anyone does so. People are constantly at war with each other over whose religion is the best or "most right". Today slaughtering is cared out in the name of god. People discriminate each other. If only people could learn to be more exepting of other's veiw's.
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Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:32 pm
I agree with you on that. But if people are doing it now they are never going to stop. Religion will always be a reason for war, unless everyone was to get rid of religion completely. Which is why I ask the tough questions of "does society need them?" and "Should we do away with organized religion completely?" Would this make the world a better or worse place? Those questions are nessicarilly for anyone to answer, kinda rhetorical.
The whole point of the field analogy was not only to make a joke, but to show part of why everyone promotes their religion so much.
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Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:38 pm
I would like to point out that religion alone does not carry out the slaughtering of people. It is portrayed that way because people don't understand the full scope of the situation.
It is assumed that Muslims kill Jews and Christians because they are of a different religion. In some cases yes this is true, it is called ethnic cleansing in some areas and isolated incidents of hate crimes in others. Ethnic Cleansing is predominantly however practiced by radicals that want a full nation-state without having to cater to a minority and it has been mainly used in Africa and the Balkan states of Europe. However this only proves that such killing is only politically motivated rather than religiously.
Now to the main enchilada which is everywhere on the news today; Islam against just about everyone else. Now as a studier of Middle Eastern and Latin American politics and history as well as a self proclaimed theologian, I can see with some justification why many of these 'radicals' and 'terrorists' commit the acts that they do.
If you go back far enough these people have been constantly bombarded by occupation after occupation from Mongol, to European, to Roman Empirical, and Persian rule. These people are very very angry to begin with and do not like others messing with their affairs especially after trampling on the goodwill and trust that they offered. If you read your history you will find that the Allies during World War I were attempting to break apart the Ottoman Empire which had the largest reserve of oil in the world and thus could fuel their machines indefinitely and eventually break the Allies with the use of German technology and Ottoman oil. The British being the world power of the time promised the Arabs freedom and a united Arab empire including Palestine. However behind the backs of the Arabs the British made a deal with the growing Zionist movement to give them their state of Israel along with Jerusalem, this was most famously stated in the very well known Balfour Declaration of 1917.
Foreign Office,
November 2nd, 1917.
Dear Lord Rothschild,
I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet:
"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country".
I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.
Yours sincerely
Arthur James Balfour
At the time that the declaration had been drafted and was accepted widely by the British Government, they were assuring the Palestinians their own homeland in the very same place that they were giving it to the Zionist movement and eventually allowed to rule alone in 1949 when Israel was granted independence. This was the first of many acts of trust violation by the West which is despised so much in today's Arab world. It is plainly seen then after taking it back nearly 100 years that it is not religion that causes the Arab-Israeli conflict but political backstabbing and basic thievery. In an attempt to save face the British and all allies of Israel have blamed it on religion and the differences in those religions on the conflict. Between that and about four other great political acts of backstabbing can we really see why the Arabs dislike the Western way of thinking so much. If any of you would be interested to know what these are please ask because to type all of them out for the sake one post is to me a bit too much work despite my love for the subject of history and religions. I just thought I would get the Ace of the whole "religion causes death" bullshit that has been going on. It is and will always be propaganda to give an excuse for the mistakes of a Government, not religions mistakes, as many people who don't pick up a book believe.
The same can be said of witch hunting which I would mark as another big one on the whole religion issue. All of which I can also provide as politically motivated rather than religiously motivated. If you read the Da Vinci Code it can basically give you a pretext as to what I would be talking about.
Also marshjazz it is not that God is bi-polar. People portray him in a different way though they say there is only one for the same reasons that polytheistic religions have many gods, to have a better appeal and more converts to their brand of religion. Again another classic case of politically motivated twisting of original texts to add more power to the organization they represent or to themselves as many preachers have done in the past.
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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:46 pm
Okay, I agree with you there. It is however an contributing factor. Those people are still getting killed on the basis of their religion.
Also about the bi-polar comment. That is how you choose to look at it. I choose to look at it the way I do. It all boils down to personal opinion.
I'm not so sure about the witch hunting, by what I know that was almost purely religiously motivated. The were other contributing factors, such as women were becoming "witch doctors" helping pregnent women give birth. And they claimed to have to power to heal, although it was really just common sense. Like the story of the boy who hurt his arm, and ran to the village doctor. Who told him to carry a bucket of water every day for 15 minutes, slowly filling it to the top. She knew this would strengthen the arm.
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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:42 am
The people are getting killed based on political preferences as well. In the Israeli-Zionist point of view anyone aligned with Hamas or Hezbollah or any other such militant group based solely in politics and territory disputes you are killed be you Muslim, Christian, or even Jewish. Yes religion is involved, the Zionists want to destroy the Golden Temple Mount the third most sacred sight in Islam dwarfed only by Mecca and Medina and they will fight to the end to keep that place Islamic because it has been their land for hundreds of years and they lost it because of political trickery.
Yes, witch hunting was in vogue when the Catholic Church noticed dissent by the Germanic states and other new acquisitions they had. So to counter they launched a medieval PR campaign as I call it. They changed pagan images, religions, and traditions Christian so that it would be easier to convert and when that wasn't working in some areas and women were starting to opt for rights based on their holy books they were killed. Yes there were some that did witch hunting because they felt it was right however those incidents were few compared to the intellectuals, midwifes, and women's rights advocates that were killed. Just a ploy of control to consolidate power of a noticeably weakening empire by that time.
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Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:31 am
About religion, how come when someone believes that there is some big, invisible man, who can do anything and tells them what to do they are seen as being insane? Yet when someone who believes in some big, invisible man, who can do anything, and tells them what to do, named God they are seen as being perfectly sane?
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Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:56 am
Well for one thing the big invisible man that tells an insane person what to do doesn't tell them to rally an entire nation under one religion and establish a code of ethics and start up powerful civilizations. No usually the crazy one is told to eat the flesh of a human or go on a killing spree or do some form of ritual all alone. That's the difference between perfectly sane and completely insane or at least in today's general perspective which is not all that sane to begin with when we glorify violators of human rights but hell thats how it is.
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Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:21 am
Plenty of insane people imagine people who don't make them do crazy stuff.
An example of this is the film "A Beautiful Mind" the person is quite clearly insane in that he sees people do not exist. The man sees that man and girl they don't tell him to eat people or go an killing spree. Yet he is quite clearly mental.
You don't have to eat people of kill people to be insane.
I can't believe I used a film to argue my point.
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Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:48 am
Therein lies the point exactly, you're using a film. And as I remember going around running from non existent CIA people and endangering those around you and throwing large desks out a window may just may constitute a bit of crazy stuff. You're missing the point, you say that the prophets were insane and even if they were it is quite clear that they were effective enough leaders to bring down leaders in Egypt, Rome, and the entire Byzantine empire. Or in all their insanity they just bullshitted this stuff and predicted their own victories and defeats in their own holy books just by sheer voices? Uhhh, I don't know about that but hell if a crazy guy can build an empire it gives me hope for the future.
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Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:23 pm
AmErIcAnSyKo First of all.. Just to clear this up.. marshjazz Okay so over the past few years alot of debates have been created over religion, and I want your opinions on it. Religious "debates" have been around since religion itself was created.. With that of none-believers and those who have conflicting religions.. More blood has been spilled over religion in the history of the world, then all other wars in the world combined.... Sorry for the correction, it just bothered me..
Anyways.. marshjazz Why do people follow a particular religion? Do they accomplish their goals? Is it appriopiate for them to try and make discions such as Harry Potter is the devil and should be banned? Do they have a good or bad effect on society? Should children be forced to follow their parents religion? Should people be perscuted for enforcing their religion on other people? How believable are they? Why did people start religions? Why do people give their "system of beliefs" a title? Do they make a person feel more secure? Do they promote free thinking or do they just surpress people? Is the system they use to evalueate scripture working or should it be changed? And most importantly: Does society need them? People follow a religion because they are taught to follow it. If you grow up in a house full of christians, they will teach you to follow God and the christian ways. The same for any other religion. Religion is sometimes even FORCED upon people in certain countries, through fear. Though, if you think about it, ALL religions try to force you into believing them, through fear.. For example; According to christians, if you do not believe that Jesus was the messiah and God is real, then you burn in hell for all eternity. Then you have people who are dependant on religion. Those who feel, if they have nothing to believe in, they are left without a purpose, without meaning in their life.. There's many reasons why.
Religions have no real goals, other then to attempt to control society through, what is very close to, "brainwashing". They claim to try and help people and such.. What has religion done for the world other then a few churches giving some scraps to the homeless? Oh, well, they've been the cause of genocide and an unfathomable ammount of bloodshed.. If that's their goal, I guess they reached it.
Religious decisions are no better then decisions made by you or me. They're just opinions that are backed behind the power of "the church" or bullshit like that.
I'll answer more when I have more time.. I think you have a good point. But the burning in fiery hell does not faze me... Though I CHOOSE to be a Christian. I could've been anything else, but I rather be something then nothing.
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Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:58 pm
I have a question... Why if you pray to God and ask for forgiveness that you shall be saved. What is the point of this "belived" hell if all you have to do is asked not to rot their forever? I agree 100% with AmErIcAnSyKo and all he states about people being forced to belive in something. And thanks AmErIcAnSyKo for the facts about the different ways religon was forced on someone, that might come in handy some day.
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:34 am
Lots of the time, I believe that it was only created because people couldn't face the facts, that when they die, there is nothing.
No place you go, no recreation, just gone. And most people are afraid of nothingness. It isn't appealing to just die and thats it.
Another reason I think so many people believe, besides the nothingness, is because they are afraid that if they don't believe in him, that he actually might be true and they will go to hell for doubting him.
But I don't really know how sure if he/she is real or just a made up character to easy people's soul, and unless there was actual proof somehow, no one will truly know for sure if he/she is or not.
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peanut butter fruit loops
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:17 am
marshjazz DO NOT JUST ANSWER THE QUESTIONS. I WANT DISCUSSION THIS IS A DEBATE NOT A SURVEY. THOSE ARE DISSCUSION POINTS FOR SOME IDEALS ON WHAT TO DISCUSS.Since it isn't big enough on the front page. stressed Do you by any chance live in the south west of the uk? Sorry I haven't been here much, a lot has been going on ._.
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