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 Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 11:43 am
boku_wa_kage Is it just me..or have you not said the magic word? That word that actually coverages every single one of your ideas... CONSCIOUSNESS I believe this is the main quality that separates us from all the animals.. I think you're getting mixed up there somewhere. WordNet Dictionary 1 [n] an alert cognitive state in which you are aware of yourself and your situation; 2 [n] having knowledge of; That is, awareness of your surroundings and etc. That spectrum, however, would imply that someone dreaming or in a hallucinatory state might be entirely conscious. Eventhough sometimes in dream the protagonist can have no control of his/her own actions. So what does that tell us? There are levels of conciousness, that go from a state -- which would take place in our daily normal lives -- of fully awareness of surroundings and situation, to a state of no percipience at all -- a nonconscious state. So yeah, animals do have conciousness. Even levels of consciousness, seeing that they probably dream as well (havent you ever seen a dog shaking it's leg or even moaning barks in their sleep?) The only thing they lack is rationality in the level we are able to uphold. As it was said on the main post, the hability to ask 'why'. Of course, said rationality may come at a price, since it developed us dandy features such as greed. But I digress.
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Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:59 pm
MightyHikaru boku_wa_kage Is it just me..or have you not said the magic word? That word that actually coverages every single one of your ideas... CONSCIOUSNESS I believe this is the main quality that separates us from all the animals.. I think you're getting mixed up there somewhere. WordNet Dictionary 1 [n] an alert cognitive state in which you are aware of yourself and your situation; 2 [n] having knowledge of; That is, awareness of your surroundings and etc. That spectrum, however, would imply that someone dreaming or in a hallucinatory state might be entirely conscious. Eventhough sometimes in dream the protagonist can have no control of his/her own actions. So what does that tell us? There are levels of conciousness, that go from a state -- which would take place in our daily normal lives -- of fully awareness of surroundings and situation, to a state of no percipience at all -- a nonconscious state. So yeah, animals do have conciousness. Even levels of consciousness, seeing that they probably dream as well (havent you ever seen a dog shaking it's leg or even moaning barks in their sleep?) The only thing they lack is rationality in the level we are able to uphold. As it was said on the main post, the hability to ask 'why'. Of course, said rationality may come at a price, since it developed us dandy features such as greed. But I digress. Gentlemen, allow me to step in for a brief moment. I believe the word you two should be debating isn't consciousness, which every sentient lifeform has, but CONSCIENCE.Starlock Interesting from a scientific standpoing, I suppose. But I don't think we'll see it in our lifetime. Not interesting. Fun. I enjoy watching others suffer sometimes. It helps me to deal with the sh*t I go through daily, like being away from my koishii for so damned long.
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Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:49 pm
[ Message temporarily off-line ]
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:44 pm
Cougar Draven Gentlemen, allow me to step in for a brief moment. I believe the word you two should be debating isn't consciousness, which every sentient lifeform has, but CONSCIENCE.
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:54 pm
breaking of dawn Cougar Draven Gentlemen, allow me to step in for a brief moment. I believe the word you two should be debating isn't consciousness, which every sentient lifeform has, but CONSCIENCE.It would help me remember that we're not that different at all from them. I'd love to just believe that we're superior, and then people like my former best friend do stupid things that make me stop believing in the human race...
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:09 pm
breaking of dawn I wonder if other animals ever hesitate due to conflicting morals, if they have any morals at all. A mother may protect her children, though this is usually an instinct for propellation of species. Do other animals worry about doing right and wrong? Are there societial influences and taboos for animals other than humans? Well, animals can be conditioned to have inner conflicts over what is right or wrong... Example... if you punish a cat for getting to the plants by spraying it... it will gradually start to realize that IF it plays in the plants it MAY get wet. I'm sure they contemplate that, as over time the cat will quit getting into the plants. But is does a conditioned respond indicate an inner conscience? There must be a little animal voice in there saying to it "Hey... don't do that! Or you know what will happen!" Not necessarily that the animal understands WHY it can't do whatever you're punishing it for... but it understands the cause and effect & balances whether the punishment is worth it.
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:58 pm
ochimaru breaking of dawn I wonder if other animals ever hesitate due to conflicting morals, if they have any morals at all. A mother may protect her children, though this is usually an instinct for propellation of species. Do other animals worry about doing right and wrong? Are there societial influences and taboos for animals other than humans? Well, animals can be conditioned to have inner conflicts over what is right or wrong... Example... if you punish a cat for getting to the plants by spraying it... it will gradually start to realize that IF it plays in the plants it MAY get wet. I'm sure they contemplate that, as over time the cat will quit getting into the plants. But is does a conditioned respond indicate an inner conscience? There must be a little animal voice in there saying to it "Hey... don't do that! Or you know what will happen!" Not necessarily that the animal understands WHY it can't do whatever you're punishing it for... but it understands the cause and effect & balances whether the punishment is worth it. Well, that's not a conscience, that's pragmatism.
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Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:34 pm
the only thing that makes man different is that he tries to define everything he see's he tries to make laws for a world which is trully lawless. man is supposedly the only creature with free will but what man strives for most is the loss of that freedom
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Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:10 pm
Sinesthera the only thing that makes man different is that he tries to define everything he see's he tries to make laws for a world which is trully lawless. man is supposedly the only creature with free will but what man strives for most is the loss of that freedom
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Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:02 am
we're better built (we have opposable thumbs, like thats incredible if you think about it) and we are highly intelligent, and the most capable creature on the planet.
At the same time though, we are screwing up the Earth for our own convenience and most of us won't do anything about it, because either we are in no position to or plain lazy and can't be bothered because its troublesome. Its gonna get to the point where all our natural resources are going to run out.
Animals however fit nicely into this world without wasting anything.
Thats what seperates us from the animals.
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Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:48 pm
Since this is relatively long, I'm going to say everything systematically from the order of the posts.
Predator and prey. Two different types of classes if you live by natural instinct, none of us do. Have you ever noticed that animals like wolves, bears, sharks, foxes all have eyes that point directly forward? These are also the predator animals keep in mind. All the prey in general, rabbits, kangaroos, deer, have eyes pointed out to their sides. You see all the rabbit has to do is listen, look and run. The wolf however needs to look at the rabbit, laying low, watching its movements, noticing when the rabbit knows that the wolf is watching it, then when it is time, pounce! The wolf needs to use angle pursuits, careful turning and maneuvering then the kill. All the rabbit does is run and keep on running. We also have eyes that point out straight.
But we are what we call "human." We do live by instinct yes, intuition but only to a small degree. Other animals like sharks, live by almost all instinct. Our brains are very different, much different. Even though dolphins have the bigger larger brains they are lacking something that we have. There brain is somewhat smooth and not wrinkled. Our brains are haphazardly wrinkled which makes us have more brain cells and have more space to certain parts of our brain (like pituatary which controls hormones). But it doesn't matter how many brain cells we have since so many out there drink alcohol, which destroys brian cells. But we have more brian cells than we need. What does the average person actually use? 10-17%. the 83-90% left over can be wasted on your fathers scotch collection.
Evolution, all of us, bacteria, plants, animals, us we all evolve and adapt to our enviroments. People who live near the equator have a much darker complexion then the people live in Germany right? Dark skin was needed in a place where is was so damn hot all the time. People who live in Germany didn't need it since it was rarely 120 degrees in the middle of spring. Native Amercians adapted to there enviroment pretty well. Remember in your old history class that Native Amercians came from Asia from the Bering Strait so many of years ago? Well look at Asians now and Native Americans. Yes the Natives do have those Asian eyes somewhat. But the most interesting thing is that even though they come from the same people they have different evolutionary paths by where and how they live. Notive that Native Americans are somewhat more meaty then Asians are. That is because in Asia, where it is crowded by other people and that obese Marco Polo, they don't get to have much protein in there diets. Not much protein not much muscle. Testoterone also needs a good amoutn of fat and protein to be generated. And since both of these weren't really common for everybody, the body screams "Hey everbody, lets not try to creat etoo much testosterone since we don't have the resources to!" Native Americans do however, where buffalo roam like bees in a hive.
We did not take over this planet. If you say controlling a planet is the same thing as taking it over you are denfinitely wrong. For example on a football field, if you control the offensive team, do you take over the offensive team? No taking over something is making that objetc submissive to you. We did not make this planet submissive to us.
Like i said before most animals live by mostly instinct not a independant mind. And actually you can tell if animals have a conscious or not, do some research and fin out what part of our brains controls our independant minds. The front maybe... Some animals have a very small or nonexistant organ in there brains so they react mostly by instinct. And animals do breath, they fell pain, but they do not think anything as we do. They can't feel guilty about killing that camper last week did they? A animals language is usually covered by again instincts. They know what i sgoing to happen by the speed of everything else. When you are a cub and the alpha male of the wolf pack is challedged by a younger more stronger wolf, you learn... Survival of the fittest is also instinct, if you can't live it then toughen up. We all need love in out lives I agree, humans need more then most species since we are so personal about everything. Differnet species have different level of tolerence. Turtles for example, does anybody tell them to go to the ocean where it is somewhat safe? Does there mommy hold there hand to there? Well some turtle species do while others don't. No, it is intinct that makes the turtle go out to ocean.
Don't get me started on whether God is real, Adam and Eve are our descendants...
The past is the past, ignore it? Wow very philosophical. But notice that when you are typing messages you are recalling the past anyway. I know what you mean though. What you said was targetted torwards thousands of years ago, but still be more specific.
Oh yeah I forgot to introduce myself. My name is Yura. I'm 13 in Oregon. Nice to speak with all of you.
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Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:32 pm
Sinesthera the only thing that makes man different is that he tries to define everything he see's he tries to make laws for a world which is trully lawless. man is supposedly the only creature with free will but what man strives for most is the loss of that freedom I love you. heart heart heart
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Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:26 pm
If I took the time to argue aganist each point individualy I would be righting this all day. Therefore I am going to make some blanket statments.
Most of the ideas presented so far makes assumptions about animals that I can think of counter-examples to off the top of my head or that are highly questionable. An example of this is the rather good idea that humans are diffrent due to are ability to store information out side of ourselves. First of all I am preety sure that humans have not always done this. Secondly I have heard that bees build thier honeycombs in ways that suggest that they may be used for the storing of information.
Many of the rest of the ideas do not address the human race as a whole but rather the culture that has existed for the last 10,000 years and dominated the rest of mankind. It is unfortunate that this culture is so often mistaken for humanity. This is the culture we live in that dominates the other creatures of our planet. Why? Beacuse it can? No not just beacuse it can. Humanity existed for millions of years on this planet before we formed a culture devoted to wipeing out all that stoud in its way. Did we create it beacuse we got smarter? No, contrary to popular belief the human race has not goten any smarter since the apperance of homo-saipien. (Actualy homo-neanderthal had a larger brain capacity any way.) This culture, our "modern, global culture" dominated the wourld beacuse it was based on the primise that it was the only culture worth being a part of and the human race was the only speices worth being a member of. So this culture had no reason not to use every means at it disposal to bend the world to its will. (and as we all know humans have all sorts of means.) Therefore any statments relating how our culture(lets call it taker culture since it takes from the world.) interacts with the envirnment is not describeing an essintial part of what it means to be human.
Now besides the occurance of taker culture there is one other thing I belive that can be said fairly safely about humans and I belive that it is justified by Occams razer. First let me start by asking some questions.
What seperates the perigun falcon from the rest of animals? It is the fastest animal.
What seperates the Blue whale from the rest of animals? It is the largest animal.
This could go on for awhile but the point is that as far as we can tell humans are the smartest animals. Thats it. Other than that there is no real diffrence. We are just another animal along for the ride called evolution,life,existance. We are of no more or less worth than any other animial. We are not special.
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Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:03 am
I disagree that we're not special. But then I would say all things in the universe are special in their own way and part of the interconnecting fabric of all things.
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Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:49 am
Starlock I disagree that we're not special. But then I would say all things in the universe are special in their own way and part of the interconnecting fabric of all things. I would have to agree with you there. I believe the question is wether or not humans have "special" status within that fabric. Are we some how difffrent from everything else in a way that makes us perhaps less a part of that relationship. Are we some how diffrent in a way that makes us deserving of ruling over everything else. Everything is diffrent but are we diffrent on another level entirely?
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