Why are you insulting TKD?

[Shuma-Gorath]

Keyboard Warrior

My "stereotyping" of TKD is based on experience in the art, so in that case it is different from how most Americans generalize the arts.

And I don't understand why this whole myth about the Thais preferring banana trees to heavy bags keeps coming up. At any reputable gym in Thailand, you won't see banana trees lined up waiting to be kicked, you'll see Thai heavy bags(which happen to be quite dense as far as heavy bags go). I currently have a 300 lb(probably suppose to be less weight, but I think I ******** up on filling it up) Thai heavy bag from Fairtex. Thing is heavy and hard as a rock.

Don't they kick them as a little ritual, and then use the shavings from the kicking in handwraps or something? Or is the person who told me that off their rocker?  

[Keyboard Warrior]

Shuma-Gorath

Keyboard Warrior

My "stereotyping" of TKD is based on experience in the art, so in that case it is different from how most Americans generalize the arts.

And I don't understand why this whole myth about the Thais preferring banana trees to heavy bags keeps coming up. At any reputable gym in Thailand, you won't see banana trees lined up waiting to be kicked, you'll see Thai heavy bags(which happen to be quite dense as far as heavy bags go). I currently have a 300 lb(probably suppose to be less weight, but I think I ******** up on filling it up) Thai heavy bag from Fairtex. Thing is heavy and hard as a rock.

Don't they kick them as a little ritual, and then use the shavings from the kicking in handwraps or something? Or is the person who told me that off their rocker?

Maybe at some gyms?  

[TaeKyon]

Bored again, guess I killed this thread for the most part tho? What? Where's the anti-TKD ignorance that I was so looking forward to refuting?

Keyboard Warrior

I guess my BIGGEST beef with the WTF isn't the sparring ruleset, but the politics and seemingly false history they spew regarding TKD's origins.

Well I will not deny that the politics of the WTF has had its share of corruption and dirt and I equally dislike it, but I ask what major sports governing organization hasn't? As for the false TKD origins, yeah, a lot of TKD practioners and instructors aren't very objective about the history of TKD (instructor's because they're trying to impress in order to make money and practioners because they get told this and don't know any better). I'm in total agreement with you there that TKD is a modern art and not derived (at least not directly) from Taekkyon and Soobak. Honestly, I don't have any real beef with you and your beef on TKD. You have legit reasons, previous experience with the "art," and it's not your cup of tea, I respect that.

Keyboard Warrior

Also, I agree that speed is very important factor...but so is power. What's the point of having speed if you can't back it up with power?

Well I also agree that if you have little to no mass (what you mean by power) behind a kick, it can be the fastest kick in the world and it'll still generate little force. But there's very little you can do to actually increase the mass of your leg or kicking surface. You can however improve the speed of your kicking leg by learning to generate more force. The Thai fighter doesn't improve the power of his kicks by increasing the mass of his shin, but rather by increasing the force he can generate at his hips (Torque, since the force required to turn the hip is rotational), and since Force is directly proportional to acceleration (F=ma), increase in force leads to an increased speed of the kicking leg which in turn leads to an increased impact force of the kick.

To add onto my previous ruminations on the subject, it's not in the mechanics of the kick necessarily that make a Thai RHK stronger or a TKD RHK weaker. If both kicks were thrown with equal initial momentum, the TKD kick would be faster and the MT kick would be slower but they'd generate the same impact force. I had previously simplified the statement by claiming that TKD compensates w/ speed and MT compensates w/ mass. Yet having thought it over, this doesn't explain why MT fighters throw rather fast kicks and why most people believe that MT kicks are stronger. I now have a theory that explains this:

Moment of Inertia is like the rotational equal to mass; the mass x the radius^2 of the rotating object. If something has a lot of mass, it requires a lot of force to accelerate the mass; same concept w/ rotational forces, if something has a large moment of inertia, then it requires a lot of torque in order to accelerate (angularly) around an axis. It is easier to accelerate the TKD rhk because the leg is pulled in and chambered, keeping the radius of rotation (the hips) minimal and thus the moment of inertia minimal as well (thus why TKD Rhk are mechanically faster). It is harder to accelerate the MT rhk because there's a larger radius (the hips are open and also the leg is swung) and thus the moment of inertia is larger and why the MT rhk are mechanically slower. So in order for the MT fighter to increase force, he has to increase the acceleration of his kick and in order to do that he has to overcome a large moment of inertia by generating more torque or more force at the hips. This is basically the scientific interpretation of "throwing your whole momentum behind a kick" (when really you're generating more momentum by generating more torque). In order to generate more torque or force at the hips depends on the fighter's physiology and conditioning.

So in conclusion, the reason why most people believe that MT fighters generally throw a stronger RHK is because they usually are throwing with more force/torque. It's not that the TKD kick is mechanically inferior, it's just that the TKD fighter doesn't usually (not to say that he isn't capable of) throw with as much torque as the MT fighter because he doesn't need to in order to accelerate his kick (though he would if he wanted to throw faster and harder). So it's the fighters and not the kicks themselves.

Wasn't that interesting? Honest, I really thought so, gave me something to think about in physics class.

Metro_Spike

Because TaeKwonDo only has a front-aimed snap kick, there are no round snap kicks. We are taught that power derives from kick just slightly past the intended striking area. Hip and waist rotation is key to be able to kick fast enough, and reaction time is the training we do.

A GOOD TKD rhk includes rotation of the hip after it leaves the chambering as you describe, WTF style included. Fast kicks which I assume what you're referring to as round snap kicks are not meant to be powerful but rather fast since they're the equivalent of a boxer's jab. They set up the second or third rhk, which is performed with momentum generated from hip rotation.

Metro_Spike

Sorry, I should not have said "no chance" in such restrictive, definite terms. I guess I am saying that there is less emphasis on the fighters mental abilities and knowledge of fighting, because fights are not settled one point at a time. Over the duration of a 3 minute match, the opponent can be set up for a much larger attack then he can if you cannot sacrifice taking a hit to execute it on him...unless it's executed as a counter or a simultaneous exchange, something of that sort. I like the chess type of feel of sparring I get in my own school, whereas I feel restricted in a point-sparring system. Although it's not completely a bad thing, because it can help me to grow by forcing me into a situation I am not used to where I have to think on my feet in circumstances I am not accustomed to being under. ^_^

Again, I disagree. If you were to spar against an experienced fighter with no wits at all, he'd measure you up and counter you all day long. I'm still not certain what you're trying to argue. WTF TKD matches are 9 minutes, three 3 minute rounds each and only recently have they instituted a rule where you can end the match early by outscoring your opponent (there has to be a 7 point spread though, which means it's more of a mercy TKO more than anything) so that most matches go the duration. A good majority of GOOD WTF TKD bouts are mental chess games, since the action is mostly broken up into short bursts, the majority of the time the fighters stay outside of each other's kicking range trying to test their opponent's reactions with baiting steps and footwork. Hell, one of my biggest weakness is that when I know I'm facing a good fighter, I freeze up with intimidation as I run several scenarios in my head of how this guy can counter me. Just because the sport is fast paced doesn't mean there isn't a good deal of timing and spacing strategies involved.  

[Mangafairy]

Correction about earlier, you can't say the TKD has stronger kicks than something else. Because you havent tested every practitioner. It would be more accurate to say GENERALY, but it is still not fact or proven. I'm sure you have all heard the great saying that:

'A martial-art shoul be jusged by the general practitioner, not the person at the top of the tree'- or something like that but longer.

It would be like comparing Muhammed Ali against Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris and say that one MA is better than another just because one won.  

[TaeKyon]

Mangafairy

Correction about earlier, you can't say the TKD has stronger kicks than something else. Because you havent tested every practitioner. It would be more accurate to say GENERALY, but it is still not fact or proven. I'm sure you have all heard the great saying that:

'A martial-art shoul be jusged by the general practitioner, not the person at the top of the tree'- or something like that but longer.

It would be like comparing Muhammed Ali against Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris and say that one MA is better than another just because one won.

I think the argument that it's the fighter and not the art is implicitly accepted as the overarching truth among most martial artist and I don't think anyone's arguing that. Nice try but you're a little late and off the mark.

You can (assuming my simplification of physics is correct, tho if you want to try and correct me on my physics, i won't stop you out of genuine interest) that if two fighters of equal mass threw w/ equal initial momentum, one throwing a taekwondo rhk and the other a muay thai rhk, each kick would generate the same amount of force due to the laws of physics (momentum is conserved always) and that the TKD kick would have a larger magnitude of acceleration but the MT kick would have a larger magnitude of mass.  

[Keyboard Warrior]

Muhammed Ali vs. Bruce Lee vs. Chuck Norris


Winner?

Rickson.
By Arm bar.  

[TaeKyon]

Didn't Ali fight a japanese wrestler at one point? Ino or something of the like...and wasn't it like, the worst mismatched sporting event ever?  

[Keyboard Warrior]

I believe he "fought" the president of Pride FC. It was a weird match with weird restrictions for both of them.  

[TaeKyon]

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking of...tho I thought it was the president of some Japanese Pro Wrestling circuit? *shrugs*  

[Keyboard Warrior]

At the time of the fight, the gentleman was a Japanese Professional Wrestler. There is a neat photo still of Ali recieving a nice kick to his thigh....you can see Ali's face wincing in pain.  

[Mangafairy]

I beleive this is the image you are thinking of- http://www.stripes.com/photoday/inoki/pages/inoki05.html  

[TaeKyon]

Yup, that's what I was thinking about...now, major props if someone finds the entire fight (all 14 rounds?) between korean boxer Kim Duk Koo and Boom Boom Ray Mancini.  

[deathcomes_onsilentwings]

I love Tae Kwon Do. I went to a school based on TKD and we didn't do it for sport. We did it for self defense.  

[Mangafairy]

deathcomes_onsilentwings

I love Tae Kwon Do. I went to a school based on TKD and we didn't do it for sport. We did it for self defense.

You see? That I like, when it is for a propper cause!  

[TaeKyon]

Mangafairy

deathcomes_onsilentwings

I love Tae Kwon Do. I went to a school based on TKD and we didn't do it for sport. We did it for self defense.

You see? That I like, when it is for a propper cause!

*rolls eyes* Martial Arts for self defense, a naive fantasy.