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 Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:36 pm
I find that comment cruel, insensitive, and (dumdumdum drumroll) stupid. Okay, okay, kinda sorta true..ish. sweatdrop
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Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:40 pm
My response probably would have been, "You're kidding, right?"
But then again, I probably would have done what Wiesenthal did --- just shut up and leave the room without saying anything.
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Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:12 pm
There's something to that. However we got on that tangent with my asking, "Isn't that in a way not forgiving him as opposed to neither option?"
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Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:33 pm
Lumanny There's something to that. However we got on that tangent with my asking, "Isn't that in a way not forgiving him as opposed to neither option?"
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:19 am
Dr. Awkward Divash Simplification time! [SNIP!] You can only forgive what is done to YOU, not what is done to others. To get real forgiveness, that man would have had to humble himself and make sincere repentance before everyone he had killed, harmed, terrified, imprisoned, or caused to suffer in any way. There was simply no way for that one man to forgive that other man. Simplification~? That was brilliant. Might you have studied ethics on the university level~? If so, in what university did you study~? If not, where did you learn~? I know this is off topic, but as someone who studies philosophy and ethics, I'm in awe. No, I studied music performance in university. I learned this simple yet often overlooked ethical stance by actually listening while in synagogue, especially on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. We can't approach Hashem for forgiveness until we have first made good to those we have harmed. Hashem can't forgive me for murdering, raping, stealing... anything I do (G*D forbid) to my fellow human beings. Hashem can only forgive me for what I do that affects only my relationship with Hashem. Likewise, I can't atone for what you do, and you can't atone for what I do. A person can only atone for themselves. Another simplification time! Let's say you have two children. One of them does something wrong -- tells a lie, steals money from your purse/wallet, kicks someone. Do you discipline the child who did the wrong thing, or do you discipline the child who didn't do anything wrong? (That's why I don't go for the Jesus-thing. It allows people to avoid personal, interpersonal, and spiritual responsibility for their own actions.)
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Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:16 pm
~Spirit of Dragons~ Lumanny There's something to that. However we got on that tangent with my asking, "Isn't that in a way not forgiving him as opposed to neither option?" You have two options: Option Alef: Forgive the man Option Bet: Don't forgive the man By walking away without saying anything, you technically are not forgiving the man. True, you son't say 'I'm not forgiving you,' but you are not. Thus, aren't you doing option Bet as opposed to neither?
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Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:34 pm
Hmm, lets see.
Nazi guard who brutalizes Jews has been severely wounded in the line of duty.
While in the hospital he has an epiphany and realizes that it was wrong to be a Nazi and to be so cruel to Jews.
So on his death bed... he requests a Jew, any Jew to absolve him of the sin against the Jewish People.
Without absolution, he will not be able to die in peace and would be sent to heaven with a great burden of sin upon his shoulders.
Yeah... I'm gonna have to say "******** 'em." I may not be the one to send him directly to hell, but I'm not gonna give a good report before he heads to the parole board.
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Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:45 pm
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Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:50 pm
Elaborate on the whole "sending him to hell" analogy?
Well lets see.
He is going to face eternal judgment and will be judged on his life, in the traditions of German/Lutheran Christianity.
He has to basically be forgiven by who he wronged in his past before he can make it into heaven.
Not doing so, would condemn him to hell.
So it's like a parole hearing...
"Well you set a synagogue on fire, but a Jew saw the goodness inside your burned and bloody body lying on your death bed, and forgave your transgression... We will take this into account in our decision."
I wouldn't give him his forgiveness, if anything I'd be sorry I wasn't the one who set him on fire to begin with.
Grudges? I haz dem.
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Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:55 pm
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Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:32 pm
Hear hear, mister Hawaiian tourist man sir.
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Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:57 pm
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Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:56 pm
Divash Dr. Awkward Divash Simplification time! [SNIP!] You can only forgive what is done to YOU, not what is done to others. To get real forgiveness, that man would have had to humble himself and make sincere repentance before everyone he had killed, harmed, terrified, imprisoned, or caused to suffer in any way. There was simply no way for that one man to forgive that other man. Simplification~? That was brilliant. Might you have studied ethics on the university level~? If so, in what university did you study~? If not, where did you learn~? I know this is off topic, but as someone who studies philosophy and ethics, I'm in awe. No, I studied music performance in university. I learned this simple yet often overlooked ethical stance by actually listening while in synagogue, especially on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. We can't approach Hashem for forgiveness until we have first made good to those we have harmed. Hashem can't forgive me for murdering, raping, stealing... anything I do (G*D forbid) to my fellow human beings. Hashem can only forgive me for what I do that affects only my relationship with Hashem. Likewise, I can't atone for what you do, and you can't atone for what I do. A person can only atone for themselves. Another simplification time! Let's say you have two children. One of them does something wrong -- tells a lie, steals money from your purse/wallet, kicks someone. Do you discipline the child who did the wrong thing, or do you discipline the child who didn't do anything wrong? (That's why I don't go for the Jesus-thing. It allows people to avoid personal, interpersonal, and spiritual responsibility for their own actions.) May I please ask your denomination~?Apparently, that question has nothing to do with the Rabbi's teaching. With what university, might I ask, is your shul associated~?
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Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:15 am
Behatzlacha-S Hear hear, mister Hawaiian tourist man sir. Eh... I'm dressed this way cause my character in the military R/P is on R&R... and by R&R I mean... shot out of the sky.... and by Shot out of the sky I mean... crashed at airport, went to hospital and was captured by enemy agents. So I'm out of the war for now... so I don't need my military uniform
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Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:04 pm
LordNeuf Behatzlacha-S Hear hear, mister Hawaiian tourist man sir. Eh... I'm dressed this way cause my character in the military R/P is on R&R... and by R&R I mean... shot out of the sky.... and by Shot out of the sky I mean... crashed at airport, went to hospital and was captured by enemy agents. So I'm out of the war for now... so I don't need my military uniform The last post of this segway: Why would you dress up like a tourist if you were captured by enemy agents? I'd take off all my clothes, shocking them long enough to escape!
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