Recruitment turned theological discussions!!!

[Ruined Horizon]

Again, from what I understand, the measurement by judgement is measured is not terribly different among the major religions on the planet- at least at their core beliefs. When you start pulling in the additions of culture that have been adopted into belief, that is where things get hairy quite quickly. Still, I do not know enough to offer a decent debate there. Here is where I go into conjecture and fall back on the idea that at least the top three religions refer to the same God, but do so in different ways. They claim to teach the same messages of faith, and in layman's terms seem to wish to say "don't be a douche." Of course, that is oversimplifying it for the sake of making a smile.

Damn I hope you smiled.

Really.

Moving on! The quote I think you are referring to is "Three factors move the universe: matter, energy, and enlightened self-interest." That was a line from a show I loved, and it is highly pragmatic. Over all else, I can depend on people doing what is in their own best interest a majority of the time. Be it for matters of money, love, faith, sex, or personal investment . . . a person will tend to do what he or she thinks is in their own best interest when in a quandry. You had mentioned about how people should be driven by belief and goodness, but some do so out of less lofty ideals. That is again out of what they at least believe is best for them. Some in psychology point out that most (if not all) motives can be related to selfishness. For instance, person A does a good deed. Doing so creates a feeling of benevolence and satisfaction, a reward for said action. Thus, it could be said that person A did the selfless act to illicit good feelings, and such makes the act selfish. I do not subscribe to this ideology, but I do understand the basis.

Pluralism . . . an interesting concept. The "all roads lead to Rome" of belief structures. I have to admit, that is not something I believe either. Such is supported by knowledge of failed pantheons. Look at the Greeks/Romans. I loved the concept of a highly specialized group of deific individuals, all with certain realms of domain. Rather than a single entity ruling over all, it was a community of specialists. Despite how alluring that may seem on a practical level . . . that culture moved on and/or died out. We know of Zeus, Poseidon, Hades, and the crew- but to my knowledge, very few still revere them. that religion cannot be correct, as it has been left behind. It can be said that Wicca and Pagan rites have been moved on from as well- something as a scientist I have to accept as a fact. The following of this belief structure is a fraction of what it used to be (per capita). The main boon for me is the very few restrictions allows me to compare and contrast easily with other belief systems. Currently, Wicca is not known, nor has it ever been known to my understanding, as the basis for any wars or purification campaigns. Such wars did exist, but religion was not the main impetus. With that in mind, I can say how I agree or disagree with religious doctrine of others without devaluing their belief system. I don't have to believe in another's faith to accept that it is meaningful to that person.

As for my practice, I have indeed been to several ceremonies, and my mother has often played the role of High Priestess. My union to my wife went through several stages including a JP wedding for it to be legal, and then a Pagan Handfasting which she officiated. That said, I do not practice the casting of spells often. To me, spells are akin to prayer. Expressing desire and effort/energy to affect a specific outcome. I have held wands, athames, and seen altars for worship. I have never been that deep into the faith. In the past, there was a deeply spiritual encounter that convinced me the nature of my own spirit, and that this is the "version" of truth that makes the most sense for me. I listen to and talk to the elements, and have transfused my own energies into other items and people. I have taken emotional turmoil out of others (they were willing), and infused my calming energy in them (with permission). The point being I am not a devout man, but I am religious. I may not have a group, but that does not change my faith.

Witches are typically organized into groups of 13, the largest group I actively joined never got above 7. My fondest memories involving faith were of a time in which all five elements were represented in our group. I am water. My adoptive brother (best friend) is a fire. We had a dwarf (really) who was the embodiment of earth, and a former friend of mine was most definitely wind. A roommate of mine was attuned in the most rare way to spirit itself, and together it felt like we could do anything. It felt . . . whole. We were all different, and yet the same. We were different facets of creation, and it was a wonderful experience when we all pooled our time and actually worked together. The fire individual has slowly drifted away from me. The wind went down a path of nastiness I did not choose to follow. The earth is doing fine, but we were never that close. The spirit is on my FB, and we talk somewhat frequently. I know it will never happen again, but that kind of connection was deeply satisfying. It reaffirmed that this was right for me. When I began to think about this faith after my experience . . . it was the first time that I was satisfied and content with saying it was my belief. In fact, the fire individual even asked me in confidence once how I knew it was real. How did I know it wasn't just me imagining the voice of the wind, water, or the Goddess herself? It made me smile in the most contented way to say without a shred of doubt "Faith."  

[Ruined Horizon]

No problem. That is why I took a day to respond last time. I wanted to, but ze brain . . . twas fried.  

[Ruined Horizon]

I'm glad beyond measure that we can have a stimulating conversation over such an incendiary topic. Many would read only a fraction of our conversation and begin a rant on one side or another, whereas we seem to be able to hold a conversation without issue. That truly does please me, and I am glad we are having this chat.

As for self interest, I always saw the phrase "enlightened self-interest" to simply mean people taking the effort to consider what he or she feels is best for himself/herself. Perhaps I am simply too cynical in my advancing years. I find there to be little faith in humanity, and with the plethora of religious practices concocted by mankind the idea of a 'pure' religion is difficult to swallow. Without a pure guide, finding a way to properly worship and lead a truly good life becomes more and more complicated. However, your description also reminded me of another race from the same show. They believed that it wasn't enough to do good, it was also important to mean well. If the intention was corrupt, then the resulting act (no matter how good) is impure. They were a very devout group, and being reminded of it is interesting. Makes me wanna break out the box sets again.

The idea of being pluralistic only goes as far as recognizing the 'core truths' of empathy as they appear in religion. The "don't be a douche" ideology. Look at a stop sign. Some would say that it is an octagonal sign to halt progress. Others would say it is a metal sign to help you be aware of other drivers. Others still would say it to be an important place to take a break and monitor your speed. All are technically correct, and all result in a driver recognizing the need to come to a stop before continuing. That is the point of religion. It isn't important to say the man measuring goat testicles is as devout and correct as the Pope. What matters is that you do right by others, and lead a life that is more good for yourself and others than bad. After all, how can I say a religion is correct and accurate when it demonizes mine own? I can tolerate it, but still know that it will never be what is right for me. Not because I seek the damnation some would say I deserve, but because there are too many things about it that rub me the wrong way. Unless I am a demon walking the Earth, then there are issues with the demands of said faith.

Please note that while it seems like that is against Christianity, it was meant to be as broad as possible. I did not mean to single out any particular faith in that paragraph. sweatdrop

From what I understand, history will support that the growth of Christianity borrowed and adapted various acts from established religious practices. Doing so made it seem more acceptable to people willing to convert, but that was in the infancy of the belief structure. Now the adopted practices are well-established, and have a unique history of their own. Christmas is not Yule. they coincide, but have different meanings. Being a practicing Wiccan is not a choice for me. I do not have an altar, a ceremonial daggar (Athame), or a wand. What I do have is my own soul, and the energy of my form. there are things that logically make absolutely no sense, but my senses tell me that they are true. I have taken the emotional pain from others, and felt how it traveled up into my body as the calm and ease poured into them from me. I have heard voices that had no source except to hear them in my mind. Said voices never asked me for anything, never demanded anything, and consoled me. I believe them because it felt right to do so.

In my belief structure, there are two main entities, representing the two sides of existence. The Goddess is the embodiement of creation, female, growth, and existence itself. The God is her opposite, the embodiment of destruction, male, withering, and nothingness. The catch is that the pair are lovers, enemies, partners, and opponents at the same time. Neither is "good" or "evil" as we might consider them. They are like magick or nature. It is not their existence that gives them these labels, but how they are seen. Wicca is an Earth-based religion that seeks understanding and balance with the world around us. for me, my calling is to help others heal. I am instantly drawn to those that are "broken." I don't forcibly fix them, but provide them the chance to heal themselves.

Wicca, despite the popular view these decades, does not worship Satan. In fact, that being does not exist in the belief structure any more than heaven or hell. The male aspect of the God is referred to as the Horned God if memory serves, so there is that parallel. Rather than seek to corrupt others to make them fall from grace, the God simply exists to destroy. Not because he is evil, but because without room, nothing can grow. The Goddess does not create and expand because she is good, but because without her works, there is nothing to destroy. the God and the Goddess are forever entwined in their roles. Magick, the energy of life and soul, is similar. It is neither good nor evil, it simply exists. How it is used denotes such views. Again, I feel spells are identical to prayer. Perhaps there are different material tools, and obviously different words, but the desire is the same. Somebody who prays for the health of a loved one is the same as a witch that burns a candle and offers a prayer of his or her own. A man that kills claiming religious righteousness is no different than a lunatic that draws a star in a circle and murders people for power.

Much of the demonization of Wicca comes from the common ideology of "Thou shalt not have Strange Gods before Me." Anybody worshipping something other than the religion in question are deemed evil. Certainly, a faith that does not even extalt the idea of a God in Heaven simply must be evil as it turns people away from the path to salvation. At least, that is what I understand. From where I stand, I tried Christianity once, and it didn't feel right. I was not comfortable with it, and did not feel as though I belonged in those places. Not once have I ever felt anything other than at home wearing my cloak and calling out to the spirits and elements.

I am far from an expert, but I will do my best to answer any questions you may have. For instance, in Wicca, the term "Witch" refers to both men and women. "Warlock" literally translates to "oath-breaker" and it is very bad to be one. The Pentacle is a star inside a circle with a single point up. Each point refers to a single element, and the circle is the containment and continuation of energy flowing through the symbol. Some sects do feel that the star with two points up denotes a 'second-level' of understanding, but I strongly oppose that. In my understanding of symbols, when one is inverted, the reference is inversed. When a Cross is turned upside down, it calls to evil. When a Pentacle is inverted to become a Pentagram, that calls to darker forces instead of balanced ones. Energy is energy, but calling for spirits is different than calling for dark forces.

As for proof, time and again my ability to sample and replace energies has proven to me that this is right. For instance, a friend once brought over a series of small objects for me to 'test'. He knew what they had been exposed to, and was impressed as I took each one in my left hand and could tell if it was a good or painful energy within the object. What sticks out in my mind was the final object- a small pocketwatch. When I took a sliver of energy from it, I felt a wiggling on my sides, a writhing that somewhat tickled- it did not hurt, the energy was not negative. It wasn't positive either . . . it was personal. He took the item and pulled out a picture of some Aetherial creature. It had tendrils/tentacles in the same places I felt the sensation. He said that was what he saw his soul to look like. I felt it- and the drawing was just what I felt.

Such leads me to my dearest wishes. I don't pray to any being or beg any spirit to give me these gifts, but they are something I have always wanted to attain for myself. I wish beyond hope to attain two abilities- to see the astral plane, and the ability to astrally project. As a scientist, I have fundamental questions that even faith can't answer. There will always be a nagging doubt. Am I what I know in my heart to be right? Am I simply deluding myself? The only way to be 100% sure is to leave my body behind . . . temporarily, or permanently. thus either I will need to learn to project, or wait until I die for my answers. I am not afraid of death. I refuse to be afraid of something that will happen no matter what I do. Of course the dying part is not something I look forward to!!!

No matter how sure I am in my faith, or how convinced in my soul's nature, or how many experiences 'prove' to me this is right . . . without my belief in it, the proof is nothing. those that need proof to understand what they need to be good people will never fully be good people. They will always be akin to faith junkies, searching for the next fix to prove they are devout enough. From what I know of people like Mother Theresa and Ghandi, the Dali Lama and similar men/women of faith and peace . . . proof was irrelevant. What matters is being a good person. The name of God is not as important as honoring Him/Her/It.

Yoder

Crap, that turned into a book, didn't it?!?  

[Ruined Horizon]

response is brewing, as well as an attempt to shorten the response without going into novel territory. sweatdrop