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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:52 am
I don't know, when I think of the word tool, I think of an object that I use for a task. I understand the a character is basically a tool, but technically, it can be a person, real or not. In my point, I am stating that without a character there isn't a story, note the character maybe a flower, or the wind, but it is something.
When I hear someone using a character as a tool, I can't see the tool (character) having any emotion, feeling or anything that would make someone believe it was a real person. When most people read a book they take the place of the character(s). If your character is like a tool. It is like trying to get into the mind of a wrench before you throw it aside after fixing your tire... There isn't very many ways to get attached to something or get into something that the author can't even say is a human, or a thing, just a tool....
You can't just change a person (character) I mean people have what they will and will not do, the same as character's. If you need to force yourself to change a character to make a story work... It will most likely come out as s**t, because people will get stuck... I thought this person was like me... now they are like the bad guy...
A character has to have a mind of their own, not your mind or they would all be like Twilgiht's Bella, a piece of s**t rock who follows and does what the other characters what, even though she is said to be the main character.
I would never change a character to satisfy a few readers, not everyone thinks that. Some people will love your writing other were not. If you try to change your character to satisfy everyone, then you will not enjoy the character, you will know it isn't what it should be. You would know that it is crap.
Personality makes a story in my opinion the way the character acts and interacts with others based on their personality makes them, if you change that you change the WHOLE story, and make it something it shouldn't be.
You can't just decide what they are like... I am sorry to say this, I am quite blunt. If you think you control your character. You are crazier than a fat person who can't stop eating. Your character will NEVER turn out if you can't even keep them the same. They will just be piece of s**t like twight....
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:18 am
11linda You can't just change a person (character) I mean people have what they will and will not do, the same as character's. If you need to force yourself to change a character to make a story work... It will most likely come out as s**t, because people will get stuck... I thought this person was like me... now they are like the bad guy... I think you misunderstood. When I talked about changing a character, I mean from the beginning. Rewriting them completely, so there is no issue of inconsistency. I think you're under the impression that I believe in changing characters around on a whim in the middle of a scene, which is not what I was saying at all. 11linda A character has to have a mind of their own, not your mind or they would all be like Twilgiht's Bella, a piece of s**t rock who follows and does what the other characters what, even though she is said to be the main character. The great thing about being a writer is you use your mind to create characters. My mind decides what they're like, and my mind is how I think about what actions and motivations will keep them consistent. I realize not everyone thinks that way, but it's a completely valid way to write, just like your way is. 11linda I would never change a character to satisfy a few readers, not everyone thinks that. Some people will love your writing other were not. If you try to change your character to satisfy everyone, then you will not enjoy the character, you will know it isn't what it should be. You would know that it is crap. Personality makes a story in my opinion the way the character acts and interacts with others based on their personality makes them, if you change that you change the WHOLE story, and make it something it shouldn't be. It takes time to learn to take a step back and see if the readers are correct. It's not a matter of trying to satisfy everyone, it's a matter of being able to distance myself enough from the story to realize when it's not good enough, where I haven't gone far enough, where things are falling short for whatever reason. You should understand why things aren't working before changing anything or you will fall into the trap of trying to please everyone. But I've scrapped characters, chapters, plots, half a novel, etc. because they weren't good enough. I don't believe a story (or character) should be bound by what came to mind first, and I love when I'm able to tear it apart and put it back together as something new and improved and so much more awesome than the previous versions. 11linda You can't just decide what they are like... I am sorry to say this, I am quite blunt. If you think you control your character. You are crazier than a fat person who can't stop eating. Your character will NEVER turn out if you can't even keep them the same. They will just be piece of s**t like twight.... Agreeing to disagree is fine, but name-calling is, well, uncalled for IMO. Everyone works in different ways. I never insulted you or your work. I'd appreciate the same in return. /end derail of Phade's journal
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:39 am
Wasn't meant as an insult I just don't hid my feelings, and I get that you can change and fix and blah blah blah, whatever you wish. I beleive characters come to you, not that you create the character. I would never change a character to please anyone.
But then again this is I. You are right we all think diffrent and I have the right to speak my mind however I please. I am not trying to come off rude, or anything, don't like opinions, don't read them.
I don't think I miss read, you are just trying to make up for what you said by changing it around as what you appear to do to characters. We all think diffrent I can handle that, I don't like the way you think, I can't correct you nor can I try. I am just basing my opinions off of your words. Your words speak for themselves you shouldn't have to elaborate to get a point across.
You basically said you make a character, they are your tools, you throw them away when they don't seem good enough, because you cannot incorporate them right. Which is fine you can do that. I don't throw away characters, I think you just couldn't tell their story correctly because you kept trying to change them.
You do not create a character or at least that is not how I see it. All characters come to you. Usually when people make up their own character they turn out like crap, or they are to much like that, that has already been done.
I can step back and see when people are right, someone telling me, "Oh, your character is crap," I would ignore and not even look into it. If they tell me I need more detail, or that they don't get something those are things I would change. Changing a whole thing to satisfy a few people, which you pretty much said you did is completely diffrent. Just goes to show that you don't believe in your writing and others opinions are better than your original ones
I believe in what fist comes to mind, how I see a character when I first get them is like how you see a person in real life when you meet them. They may not be that way always, but they showed that side first.
You can think how you want, you can hate my reply. I don't agree to anything, I state my mind and I state it well. I am a debater, and I don't give in. I am as hard headed as anyone you would ever meet.
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:52 am
I think this has been an interesting discussion about characters, and until now has been respectful. I'll be responding to your post in my own journal. If you're interested, feel free to continue discussing there. (This goes for anyone who is interested, I just don't want to flood this thread. And like Desert posted over there, just be respectful and no name-calling and it will be fine!)
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:25 am
Desert, Haptic learning is learning by doing. Or by doing something else. People like me tend to have the music going or get distracted easily. It's like having ADD, only not.
Miss, Racheling, it's quite alright. It wasn't a derail at all, considering I had a huge post about the way writers perceive their characters. And thank you ever so much for being the first person to ever, EVER, present the 'tools' perspective in a civilized way.
And, as a side note, I love how you have a new avatar every few days or so. I'm always like, "hey, it's a new--ohh, it's Racheling." xd
11linda, while I'm glad we see eye-to-eye and I respect that you have your opinions and are passionate about them, could we maybe use a little more tact in stating our beliefs and while debating, please and thanks.
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:36 am
PHADE RANT #9August 13, 2010Friday the 13th: Not So Unlucky After AllIn an E-mail I just opened: Potential Agents Dear Miss /Phade/, We would like to see the first thirty pages or so of your manuscript. Now, I know they're only asking for a snapshot, but there are three facts about this that made me go: <********! YEAH! Fact Number 1: An agent wants to bloody see my work! *Squeals like the little fangirl she is* Fact Number 2: They want to see it based off a one-page query letter. ONE. PAGE. Fact Number 3: This is literally the fourth query letter I've ever sent out. The first was to a publisher. The other three were to agents, and one of them never replied. I'm gonna be giddy the rest of the day. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahh! There's interest in my manuscript! DANCE PARTY FOR ALL!!!
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:41 am
WOOOOO PARTIAL REQUEST! That is super exciting and awesome, congratulations!
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:41 am
Wow that is amazing news! I would be so excited in your position, make sure to keep us updated! Haha, the umm 'discussion' has moved to Racheling's journal...ack!
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DesertRoseFallen Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:45 am
It's all good. I'll totally jump in and read it all later. I really don't think I could possibly contribute anything constructive to that right now. I need to go pick up my paycheck and pamper myself with an afternoon of shopping so the giddiness wears off and I can actually do a last once-over of the first 30 pages before I send them.
Aieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! I'm so EXCITED! I mean, even if they don't take it, this one little success means I'm doing something right!
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:47 am
Yes it does! I am so happy for you and hope all goes well!
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DesertRoseFallen Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:49 am
Glad to see someone who agrees with me. Good luck on that email, my mom told me a trick, when you finish your story print it out and send it in the mail to yours, then if you work is ever stolen, you can show the never opened envelope with the mailing stamp and date.
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:40 pm
PHADE RANT #10
August 14, 2010
I Don't Wanna Give You My First Thirty Pages!
You know those parts of your work that you just don't think are as good as the rest? Yeah, for me, it's the beginning. I'm rarely happy with my beginnings. Which is really bad considering the beginning is like, THE most important part of any book. It's what has to draw the reader in. It's what the agents and publishers want to look at.
Suffice it to say, this bloody sucks for me right now. I know my first thirty pages aren't terrible, but, damn it, they're just not as good as the rest of it. I don't want to send them. I want to send them chapter five and beyond. Ahhhhhh, I hate this! I'm going to spaz for the next few days until I send it!
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Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:59 am
Don't spaz. Just be confident in yourself. I know how you feel, I hate beginnings too. Good luck and congrats!
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:02 am
PHADE RANT #11
August 17, 2010
Theme and Variations
The music major in me demanded that title... xd
Okay, so, I still haven't sent in my partials. Doing that today, I swear. I've gotten a ton of feedback from people I know will tear my work apart. While I don't enjoy the baby-killing, I accept it as a part of the writing process.
But I've run into an issue with my beloved book. Unintentionally, there is a theme to it all, and that theme is family. Somehow, though, there's a bit in there about being selfish, and how selfishness is the real motivation behind absolutely everything we do, even though we say it's for others or for a greater cause and such.
I love both ideas, I really do, but, obviously, they kinda clash. So I'm torn between finding a way to make it work, or just cutting the selfishness bit. My reason is telling me to cut the selfish motive because the family theme seems to be an overwhelming aspect in all five books.
And after writing this, I think I very well might. It's just going to be a lot of work today, because I'll need to fix it and send in my partials. Not that those two are immediately related, but on the off chance said agents get back to me promptly and request the whole manuscript (*fingers crossed*), I want to be ready...
I'm in such a rare mood today... pirate
Yes, it's a random pirate smiley! DEAL!
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DesertRoseFallen Vice Captain
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:02 pm
Oh yes, the random pirate smiley haha. I think only you know what needs to be done with your manuscript and I'm sure you will twig it to keep all the best bits. Good luck!
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