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 Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:09 pm
Can someone explain to me what a vegan is!
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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:15 pm
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Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:14 pm
Seraphsody Don't offer a vegan honey, it's just polite. Being true to veganism means that you do not eat honey, honey and beeswax are not vegan because they are animal products. And in commercial operations, bee keeping is not natural or kind to the bees practices include killing the bees at the end to sell all the beeswax in the hive and the honey, because it's cheaper to get new bees rather than to leave them with enough sell-able product to keep them through the winter, and killing the males to impregnate the queen on the human's time schedule rather than nature's, so it's really best to get your honey locally if you're interested in a natural product, you're getting better stuff and they don't have the resources to try to pump that much production out of their bees. Often it's a hobby. By that logic, I'm a vegetarian that doesn't use silk, eat gelatin, eggs or dairy but does eat honey and use wool. Because it's ridiculously hard to explain this to every person, if the honey and wool issues aren't coming up, I will tell people that I am vegan to avoid a problem. If the issue of honey comes up I will explain that actual vegans do not eat honey, I use the title the same way many vegans say that they are allergic to milk and eggs, to avoid confusion and aggravation. Basically, most vegans don't eat honey, some people use the title and do eat honey. Bolded is the reason most vegans I've heard of don't use honey product. HOWEVER- I just this week finished a beekeeping course and I would like to input that it's taught locally by a commercial beekeeper who wants you to know the everything ins and outs of keeping bees, so I feel honestly strong in saying I disagree with that statement. At least in this area, the bees are not killed off at the end of the season. It's ridiculous and was never ever suggested to us to do any such thing. Bill, our teacher, says that you might replace a queen about yearly, to induce stronger hives and resist swarming, but basically you don't go into the hive unless you need to (NEED TO)- he says treat it like surgery on a body, get in, get out, move with a purpose, turn over as little as you can so you don't hurt your bees or your queen. The possible reason for killing drones, if this happens, is that there is a rise in infertility among the drones lately for one reason or another. The queen mates only once, perhaps for one day or for two consecutively, over her entire lifetime. Once she gets weak and the hive is crowded, the workers make a new queen (feed it royal jelly) and the older ones and the old queen leave the hive once the new queen is about to emerge. If a commercial beekeeper is killing their bees, they're losing time and money. Yes, they do sometimes do things on the human schedule (like early replacement of a queen to prevent a swarm), but our teacher constantly said you have to know the life cycle of the bee, to do the things you need to do for the colony at the right time in their life and in your weather area. He does say that you have to put up electrical fencing for bears, and you have to catch and kill (he recs drowning, which made me really upset, but he's a country good ol boy)- the kill is actually bee law in this state- raccoons. He says that if you go "treehugger" and don't medicate the bees with the chemicals that are traditionally used, then your bees will get sick and die out, and he's seen it happen time and again and again. He says sometimes you just have to suck it up and medicate to keep the colony safe. American and European foulbrood is a disease that spreads like wildfire among non-medicated bees, and the only legal course of action if an inspector finds it on your bees is to burn the hive. Those are more likely reasons for a vegan to avoid honey. Like the circus, there is some painful stuff involved. Only in this case, it's actually for "a greater good" instead of "ohh mommy shiny elephant" /rant sorry if I was bothersome
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:19 am
Death of Cool LorienLlewellyn There is some debate as to whether bees should be classified as animals, and therefore whether honey should be classified as an animal product. Some argue that bees are not animals and that taking honey does not hurt them. Others argue that bees feel pain like anything else and that to take their honey would be stealing or exploiting them. Insects are part of the kingdom animalia. Anyone who argues that bees are not animals is retarded. Honey is not vegan. Took the words right out of my mouth: Animalia Arthropoda Insecta Hymenoptera Apocrita Apoidea Anthophila If you're worried then use Agave. Which is plant sugars that has a honey consistency and doesn't spike your sugar levels.
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:22 am
This has been very educational. May I ask, where did you find a bee-keeping course? Sakakikala Dia Dementia vegans are supposed to avoid (non-human, since someone made the point about their bread)animal products & by-products, so that includs honey. So if i only have to avoid non-human animal products and byproducts you're saying I can eat humans? biggrin Now I have something to do with that pile of bodies in the basement. >_> LOLJK. Its not favorable, because of many disadvantages, such as pathogens and other human contracted disease. But in most desperate times all animals will cannibalize. There have been many stories of survival in human history where they have turned to cannibalism to survive.
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:52 am
Ellavemia [Kegan] Ellavemia Research shows that plants can feel pain and react to being cut. Does that mean we shouldn't eat vegetables, fruits, herbs and other plants either? I'm honestly not sure. I find it's best not to think about it too much. Uh, research HAS been done on this, but with no conclusive evidence of plant empathy. Infact, most signs point to "no." If you define pain as having to have a central nervous system and pain receptors, then no, plants don't "feel" pain. If you broaden the definition to include electrical reaction, then pain stimuli do indeed affect them. Recent studies confirm this. This leads me personally to believe that plants are sentient. Your definition may be different. At some point we have to give in and realize that human survival is dependent on other living creatures; whether they be plants, insects, birds, fish, mammals or bacteria. We have to use other species to live. All animals do. Most animals have norireceptors that are nerve receptors that produce "Pain" to dangerous and tissue damaging stimuli. These are characteristic of most animals. Plants, do not have a 'nervous system" per se. But most organisms will have a cation anion concentration gradient which in turns is a 'electrical' of some sort. For animals and bacteria, these electrical is translated into action potentials, relying heavily on Ca+ K+ Na+ and Cl- and a few others like...H+ (protons), these are ATP pump run. Highly dependent on Cations, or positive ions. These have a dramatic change in cell membrane potential (ie the voltage) within and outside the cell. They are large enough to measure extra and intra cellular with specialized instruments. In plants however, do not have such high action potentials. They may have some, but many of their reactions are slow, and are hormone based. Rapid plant movement such as Venus Fly trap and the Sensitive plant, have been observed to have action potentials, instead of muscle contraction its lost of water in vacuoles to shrink back. In grasses the 'shrink' back is because of a lost of water from leaves because of evaporation. Stomata and fast rapid moving plants is a lost of water within the cells itself because of deliberate water lost and change in ion gradients. Plants do not use cations extensively, except in the roots to bring in water and other nutrients, and stroma to bring/push water to open/close. Plants rely more on Cl- to upset the balance between cells, to move water and therefore making a movement. The difference between plants and animals is that animals for the most part if they have some sort of nervous system have action potentials that differ in ion concentration, not water. Plants will different ion concentration TO MOVE WATER, their cells will expand or shrink, in animals 'no' The definition in neurobiology if a 'true nervous system' is a system that is interconnected and transports back to a central position, let it be many ganglia (leech nervous) or one main ganglia (brain), and have segmented movement that is more or less controlled. Star fish/hydra have "almost a central nervous system" but is not since there's no specialization, in most of the nerves. From the article you gave its very likely that the information (action potential) caused by the stimuli is slow, and causes hormone and chemical leakage like any other damaged plant cell. The question of "Do Plants Feel Pain?" is a very open ended question and as of now cannot be answered by science, since it can not be measured. No doubt a plant may 'withdraw' or increase defense, grow towards favorable conditions and die back (as another withdraw mech.) There is no argument that plants have a sensory system, but sensory does not specifically mean a nervous system.
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:31 am
http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/beekeeping.html is a good beekeeping resource with free online courses. I would personally look up beekeeping courses in your state via google or whatever, we have a really good one locally. My state's course list looks like this: http://www.ncbeekeepers.org/courses.htmAlso, an addendum on the subject of a keeper just killing their bees at the end because it's cheaper- VERY untrue. It's hard to get on the list to get bees, and when you do, the list is overcrowded. Queens are freely available about April to August, but the two main ways to get a colony (packages, which are random bees grouped together for you, and which my teacher does not like, or Nucs, nuclear hives, a small hive that grew up together), are not nearly as available as they were ten or more years ago. We used to be able to import bees from Australia, as well, and we cannot do so any longer.
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:37 pm
Ta Lu This has been very educational. May I ask, where did you find a bee-keeping course? Sakakikala Dia Dementia vegans are supposed to avoid (non-human, since someone made the point about their bread)animal products & by-products, so that includs honey. So if i only have to avoid non-human animal products and byproducts you're saying I can eat humans? biggrin Now I have something to do with that pile of bodies in the basement. >_> LOLJK. Its not favorable, because of many disadvantages, such as pathogens and other human contracted disease. But in most desperate times all animals will cannibalize. There have been many stories of survival in human history where they have turned to cannibalism to survive. I know that. smile I was trying to be silly, but i also am pretty sure some humans are cannibalistic by religion or whatever(tribal sort of thing). I dunno too much about it, but yeah.
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:46 am
I think the subject is pretty much covered by now, but i'd just like to say I agree, honey is not vegan, and I don't eat it (didn't before I went vegan, because I only have a restricted amount of suger daily).
Just like to say to people talking about how many bugs vegans kill to produce their plants, just remember what livestock has to eat. Plants. Maybe once they get the feed, on some farms you could barely call the feed plants, but you need plants to feed the animals. So while being vegan may not help the bugs, being an omnivore won't either.
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:39 am
DeeSpark I think the subject is pretty much covered by now, but i'd just like to say I agree, honey is not vegan, and I don't eat it (didn't before I went vegan, because I only have a restricted amount of suger daily). Just like to say to people talking about how many bugs vegans kill to produce their plants, just remember what livestock has to eat. Plants. Maybe once they get the feed, on some farms you could barely call the feed plants, but you need plants to feed the animals. So while being vegan may not help the bugs, being an omnivore won't either. this is assuming everyone is eating normal lot beef and pork. some of us omnivores eat only chicken and fish, and take steps to make sure they're not eating the same old lot feed. when i raise chickens, they mostly forage and eat my table scraps, which are mostly veggies, thus not really making any more of an impact than a full vegetarian/vegan. and of course if i fish my own fish for food, instead of buying farmed, then there you go again.
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:34 pm
Strega Mama DeeSpark I think the subject is pretty much covered by now, but i'd just like to say I agree, honey is not vegan, and I don't eat it (didn't before I went vegan, because I only have a restricted amount of suger daily). Just like to say to people talking about how many bugs vegans kill to produce their plants, just remember what livestock has to eat. Plants. Maybe once they get the feed, on some farms you could barely call the feed plants, but you need plants to feed the animals. So while being vegan may not help the bugs, being an omnivore won't either. this is assuming everyone is eating normal lot beef and pork. some of us omnivores eat only chicken and fish, and take steps to make sure they're not eating the same old lot feed. when i raise chickens, they mostly forage and eat my table scraps, which are mostly veggies, thus not really making any more of an impact than a full vegetarian/vegan. and of course if i fish my own fish for food, instead of buying farmed, then there you go again. True, didn't think of that. However some people eat bacon and eggs for brekky, beef burgers for lunch and steak for dinner every day (Ok unlikely, but theres somebody out there who probably does). A lot of the veggie I eat come from the garden outside, where no bugs are killed. Since it's only small, we can easily see bugs and remove them, and there are ways to deter bugs as well (or have suicide plants I suppose. Last winter our veggies in just one garden bed kept getting eaten. Then our rocket lettuce on the outside grew heaps and the bugs went crazy for that rather then any other veggies. We weren't huge fans of it, and even with the bugs, the plant was still producing enough for us anyway). Also you can buy chemical free fruites and veggies (which are more expensive, probably because of the amount of damage from bugs they get I suppose?). But really, it's hard not to kill bugs. When meats gets transported, the truck hits plenty of bugs and kills them. So does our cars. So do our own selves, when you walk around outside. I think the best we can do, is just not go out of our way to kill the bugs (so if you see a beatle on the sidewalk, you don't have to jump on it)
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:40 pm
A potential Honey substitute would be Agave Nectar(if you need one).
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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:17 pm
If I had to guess, I would yes, honey is vegan.
Although honey is made by bees, it's not made in the manner that cows make milk or chickens make eggs. In fact, the only part the bees play in making the honey is transporting the nectar from flowers to their hive, where the 'house bees' "chew the nectar, thus breaking down the complex sugars into simple sugars so that it isn't attacked by bacteria when it is stored in the hive, and then is spread out into their honeycombs where the water is evaporated from the nectar, making a thicker syrup, or honey. :]
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