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In Medias Res IV

PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:50 pm


xxEternallyBluexx
In Medias Res IV
xxEternallyBluexx
In Medias Res IV
Voldemort point two

Proof?


Question: Why do Jews not accept Jesus as a god or a messiah? —Jonas

Answer: Almost since the inception of Christianity, some Christians have made it their life's work to convert others, including Jews. At times, these missionaries have used torture and other coercions to gain their goal, such as during the Spanish Inquisition. More recently, Christian missionaries have employed different techniques-using friendly arguments and slick propaganda-for the same purpose. Missionaries have aggressively confronted Jews with misleading arguments and incorrect Biblical quotes. Lately, they have even resorted to using Jewish names and Hebrew songs to mislead Jews into thinking that they, too, are Jewish. Thus, we have the rise of the "Jewish Christians" who claim that the only "fulfilled" Jew is the one who believes in JC (called by them, "Yeshua").




e-book: Their Hollow Inheritance

Jews for Judaism

Outreach Judaism Responds to Jews for Jesus





What is Moshiach?

When will Moshiach come?

When will Moshiach come?

10 Questions about Resurrection of the Dead

How can we identify Moshiach?

Why did the Holocaust Happen?

Why don't you accept Jesus as the Messiah?

What is the purpose of the sacrificial offerings in the Holy Temple?

What is the Livyatan?

What will happen when Moshiach comes?


Judaism respects the right of Christians to worship as they please. It, however, condemns those who try to impose Christianity on Jews through deceit or any other way. The missionaries show a dangerous degree of intolerance towards Judaism, implying that it is a false religion. Jews should therefore be ready to defend their religious beliefs, and to counteract missionary propaganda. Jews must know that missionary arguments can readily be answered, for they are misleading and based on false premises. Jews cannot sit idly by watching missionaries misleading their fellow religionists. There are too few Jews in the world today for us to afford defections to Christianity.
Missionaries say that JC is both the son of G-d and the long -awaited Messiah. Jews reject both claims, for the following reasons:

a) No Man Can Be a G-d. The Torah makes it clear that there is only one omnipotent, indivisible G-d: "The L-rd He is G-d; there is none else besides him" (Deuteronomy 4:35)." G-d is unique unto Himself, and does not consist of a trinity: "The L-rd He is G-d in heaven above and upon the earth below; there is none else" (Deuteronomy 4:39). JC himself accepted G-d's uniqueness: "And he (JC) said unto him, 'Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, G-d." (Matthew 19:17). How, then, could a mortal man-one who was born and who died on a cross-be a segment of an immortal, indivisible G-d? There is no concept of infinity possible if G-d is a man or a Trinity. The Torah states clearly: "G-d is not a man" (Numbers 23:19).

b) JC did not accomplish the tasks of the Messiah. If JC had indeed been the Messiah, he would have fulfilled the Messianic prophecies mentioned in Tanach. For instance, the Moshiach (Messiah) will bring about universal peace and tran quility: "And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation; neither shall they learn war any more" (Isaiah 2:4). The Moshiach will bring about universal respect for G-d, and lead all people to follow His ways: "The knowledge of G-d will fill the earth. The world will be filled with the knowledge of G-d as the water covers the sea" (Isaiah 11:9). He will cause an ingathering of the Jewish exiles: "Then the residue of his brethren shall return with the children of Israel" (Micha 5:2) and will bring about the rebuilding of the Beis Hamikdosh:. "In that day will I raise up the Tabernacles of David that is fallen" (Amos 9:11). He will also bring physical cure to all who are sick: "Then the eye of the blind will be opened, and the ears of the deaf will be unstopped. Then the lame man will leap as a hart, and the tongue of the dumb will sing" (Isaiah 35:5-6). Furthermore, he will accomplish these tasks within his own lifetime: "He shall not fail or be crushed until he has set the right in the earth" (Isaiah 42:4).

The clear-cut fact is that JC did not fulfill any of these tasks. The Beis Hamikdosh has not been rebuilt, and the Jews are still in exile. (Incidentally, it is hard to see how JC could rebuild the Beis Hamikdosh or return the Jews to Israel when the Beis Hamikdosh was still in existence and the Jews were still in Israel during his lifetime.) Suffering and pain still abound, and the world is certainly less religiously-inc lined today than it was during JC's day. Immorality, corruption, and crime are definitely in evidence to this very day, and the past 2,000 years have seen one war after another.

If the Messiah has already come, why is the world in such a sad state?

Christian theology has come up with the explanation that JC will reappear during a Second Coming, when he will finally fulfill the Messianic prophecies. But there is no reference to such a delayed second coming of the same Messiah anywhere in the Torah. JC himself promised his followers that he would succeed in his own era: "Verily I say to you that there be some of them who stand here, which shall not taste of death until they have seen the kingdom of G-d come with power" (Mark 9:1); "Verily I say to you that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done" (Mark 13:30). But the things were not done, and JC was instead killed.

c) JC did not keep Jewish law. The Moshiach is expected to keep all the laws of the Torah, and to inspire others to do likewise. (See Deuteronomy 13). However, at times JC considered himself to be above the law: "For the Son of Man is master even of the Sabbath" (Matthew 12: cool . He broke the laws of the Sabbath part of the Ten Commandments-and reviled the Rabbis, who are accorded great respect by the Torah. JC did not even always espouse peace: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword" (Matthew 10:34). Can one who denies G-d's sacred law be His Messiah?

d) Lack of Jewish support. JC lived at the time of Roman suppression of the Jews. The Jewish people eagerly looked forward to the arrival of the Moshiach. They were certainly well-versed in the requirements to be filled by the true Moshiach, and would definitely have accepted the Moshiach if it was clear that he had appeared. Yet the Jews of that time—and especially the learned Sages—rejected JC' claims to be the Messiah. They knew and saw JC in the flesh, and found him wanting; on the other hand, Paul of Tarsus, who established the Christian religion, never knew JC personally. If JC were indeed the Messiah, why did his fellow Jews, who had every reason to want a Messiah, almost unanimously reject him?

Missionaries often say that they have Biblical proof of JC' divinity or Messianic role. However, these arguments often rely on misquotes and faulty reasoning.

One such "proof" comes from Isaiah 7:14, which they translate as follows: "Behold the virgin is with child, and she will bear a son, and his name will be called Immanuel." The unsus pecting individual might think that this is a prophecy of the New Testament's account of JC' birth. However, one who studies the verse in its original Hebrew will note that the term used is “almah”, which means "young woman", not "virgin". (The Hebrew word for virgin is “besulah”, as mentioned in Leviticus 21:3). In any case, the verse refers to the birth of King Chezkiah, and has nothing at all to do with the Moshiach.

Another supposed "proof" is the verse in Micha 5:1: "But you, Bethlehem Ephrasah, which are little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of you shall come forth ' onto Me that is to be ruler in Israel, whose going forth are from old, from ancient days."

Missionaries claim that this refers to JC, who they say was born in Bethlehem. But the verse really refers to the fact that the Moshiach will come from the lineage of King David, who was born in Bethlehem. And Christians cannot claim that JC came from King David, for the lineage follows the father, and they say that JC had no earthly father.

Finally, there is the so-called "proof" from Isaiah 53, which refers to a "Suffering Servant". Missionaries will say that this means JC, who suffered on the cross. But the term "servant", when used elsewhere in Isaiah, refers to the Jewish nation, whose members are G-d's dedicated servants. They have certainly suffered throughout the years-yet they have survived for a long time, unlike JC, who died childless at the age of 33, and the verse refers to the servant's prolonged days and "seed" (children).

There are other such arguments, with accurate and concise Jewish responses to each. All Jews must be aware that missionary claims should not be taken at face value, and that the Jewish rejection of the Messiahship of JC has a sound Biblical basis.

Reprinted from L'hovin U'lhaskil - A Guide to Torah Hashkofoh by Rabbi Eliezer Gevirtz (Feldheim 198 cool

Really Media, must you? I said I didn't want to get into this here, and I'm not going to. What is your beef with me anyway? neutral stressed


You asked for proof, so you got it.

My "beef" is with all Christians who think that the only way into heaven is via Jesus.

I didn't ask for proof, you shoved it in my face the minute I brought up a point you didn't like. neutral


Then what does "Proof?" mean?

[quote[And I think you're wrong for that. You have a beef with just about everyone in my church in that case,
Uh, nope. I don't know them. I don't believe that people who practise idolatry (Christians) are going to hell. You guys though, think that anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus will.

Quote:
and even with God, if what I believe is the truth.

See, comments like this are inflammatory.

That's a HUGE if, my dear.

Quote:
I've explained that I don't think I'm better then you, and really I wish you would stop trying to attack me. It's immature.
then don't ask for proof.

Quote:
And fvi, I'm afraid you still aren't making much sense to me.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:33 pm


In Medias Res IV
xxEternallyBluexx
In Medias Res IV
xxEternallyBluexx
In Medias Res IV


Question: Why do Jews not accept Jesus as a god or a messiah? —Jonas

Answer: Almost since the inception of Christianity, some Christians have made it their life's work to convert others, including Jews. At times, these missionaries have used torture and other coercions to gain their goal, such as during the Spanish Inquisition. More recently, Christian missionaries have employed different techniques-using friendly arguments and slick propaganda-for the same purpose. Missionaries have aggressively confronted Jews with misleading arguments and incorrect Biblical quotes. Lately, they have even resorted to using Jewish names and Hebrew songs to mislead Jews into thinking that they, too, are Jewish. Thus, we have the rise of the "Jewish Christians" who claim that the only "fulfilled" Jew is the one who believes in JC (called by them, "Yeshua").




e-book: Their Hollow Inheritance

Jews for Judaism

Outreach Judaism Responds to Jews for Jesus





What is Moshiach?

When will Moshiach come?

When will Moshiach come?

10 Questions about Resurrection of the Dead

How can we identify Moshiach?

Why did the Holocaust Happen?

Why don't you accept Jesus as the Messiah?

What is the purpose of the sacrificial offerings in the Holy Temple?

What is the Livyatan?

What will happen when Moshiach comes?


Judaism respects the right of Christians to worship as they please. It, however, condemns those who try to impose Christianity on Jews through deceit or any other way. The missionaries show a dangerous degree of intolerance towards Judaism, implying that it is a false religion. Jews should therefore be ready to defend their religious beliefs, and to counteract missionary propaganda. Jews must know that missionary arguments can readily be answered, for they are misleading and based on false premises. Jews cannot sit idly by watching missionaries misleading their fellow religionists. There are too few Jews in the world today for us to afford defections to Christianity.
Missionaries say that JC is both the son of G-d and the long -awaited Messiah. Jews reject both claims, for the following reasons:

a) No Man Can Be a G-d. The Torah makes it clear that there is only one omnipotent, indivisible G-d: "The L-rd He is G-d; there is none else besides him" (Deuteronomy 4:35)." G-d is unique unto Himself, and does not consist of a trinity: "The L-rd He is G-d in heaven above and upon the earth below; there is none else" (Deuteronomy 4:39). JC himself accepted G-d's uniqueness: "And he (JC) said unto him, 'Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, G-d." (Matthew 19:17). How, then, could a mortal man-one who was born and who died on a cross-be a segment of an immortal, indivisible G-d? There is no concept of infinity possible if G-d is a man or a Trinity. The Torah states clearly: "G-d is not a man" (Numbers 23:19).

b) JC did not accomplish the tasks of the Messiah. If JC had indeed been the Messiah, he would have fulfilled the Messianic prophecies mentioned in Tanach. For instance, the Moshiach (Messiah) will bring about universal peace and tran quility: "And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation; neither shall they learn war any more" (Isaiah 2:4). The Moshiach will bring about universal respect for G-d, and lead all people to follow His ways: "The knowledge of G-d will fill the earth. The world will be filled with the knowledge of G-d as the water covers the sea" (Isaiah 11:9). He will cause an ingathering of the Jewish exiles: "Then the residue of his brethren shall return with the children of Israel" (Micha 5:2) and will bring about the rebuilding of the Beis Hamikdosh:. "In that day will I raise up the Tabernacles of David that is fallen" (Amos 9:11). He will also bring physical cure to all who are sick: "Then the eye of the blind will be opened, and the ears of the deaf will be unstopped. Then the lame man will leap as a hart, and the tongue of the dumb will sing" (Isaiah 35:5-6). Furthermore, he will accomplish these tasks within his own lifetime: "He shall not fail or be crushed until he has set the right in the earth" (Isaiah 42:4).

The clear-cut fact is that JC did not fulfill any of these tasks. The Beis Hamikdosh has not been rebuilt, and the Jews are still in exile. (Incidentally, it is hard to see how JC could rebuild the Beis Hamikdosh or return the Jews to Israel when the Beis Hamikdosh was still in existence and the Jews were still in Israel during his lifetime.) Suffering and pain still abound, and the world is certainly less religiously-inc lined today than it was during JC's day. Immorality, corruption, and crime are definitely in evidence to this very day, and the past 2,000 years have seen one war after another.

If the Messiah has already come, why is the world in such a sad state?

Christian theology has come up with the explanation that JC will reappear during a Second Coming, when he will finally fulfill the Messianic prophecies. But there is no reference to such a delayed second coming of the same Messiah anywhere in the Torah. JC himself promised his followers that he would succeed in his own era: "Verily I say to you that there be some of them who stand here, which shall not taste of death until they have seen the kingdom of G-d come with power" (Mark 9:1); "Verily I say to you that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done" (Mark 13:30). But the things were not done, and JC was instead killed.

c) JC did not keep Jewish law. The Moshiach is expected to keep all the laws of the Torah, and to inspire others to do likewise. (See Deuteronomy 13). However, at times JC considered himself to be above the law: "For the Son of Man is master even of the Sabbath" (Matthew 12: cool . He broke the laws of the Sabbath part of the Ten Commandments-and reviled the Rabbis, who are accorded great respect by the Torah. JC did not even always espouse peace: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword" (Matthew 10:34). Can one who denies G-d's sacred law be His Messiah?

d) Lack of Jewish support. JC lived at the time of Roman suppression of the Jews. The Jewish people eagerly looked forward to the arrival of the Moshiach. They were certainly well-versed in the requirements to be filled by the true Moshiach, and would definitely have accepted the Moshiach if it was clear that he had appeared. Yet the Jews of that time—and especially the learned Sages—rejected JC' claims to be the Messiah. They knew and saw JC in the flesh, and found him wanting; on the other hand, Paul of Tarsus, who established the Christian religion, never knew JC personally. If JC were indeed the Messiah, why did his fellow Jews, who had every reason to want a Messiah, almost unanimously reject him?

Missionaries often say that they have Biblical proof of JC' divinity or Messianic role. However, these arguments often rely on misquotes and faulty reasoning.

One such "proof" comes from Isaiah 7:14, which they translate as follows: "Behold the virgin is with child, and she will bear a son, and his name will be called Immanuel." The unsus pecting individual might think that this is a prophecy of the New Testament's account of JC' birth. However, one who studies the verse in its original Hebrew will note that the term used is “almah”, which means "young woman", not "virgin". (The Hebrew word for virgin is “besulah”, as mentioned in Leviticus 21:3). In any case, the verse refers to the birth of King Chezkiah, and has nothing at all to do with the Moshiach.

Another supposed "proof" is the verse in Micha 5:1: "But you, Bethlehem Ephrasah, which are little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of you shall come forth ' onto Me that is to be ruler in Israel, whose going forth are from old, from ancient days."

Missionaries claim that this refers to JC, who they say was born in Bethlehem. But the verse really refers to the fact that the Moshiach will come from the lineage of King David, who was born in Bethlehem. And Christians cannot claim that JC came from King David, for the lineage follows the father, and they say that JC had no earthly father.

Finally, there is the so-called "proof" from Isaiah 53, which refers to a "Suffering Servant". Missionaries will say that this means JC, who suffered on the cross. But the term "servant", when used elsewhere in Isaiah, refers to the Jewish nation, whose members are G-d's dedicated servants. They have certainly suffered throughout the years-yet they have survived for a long time, unlike JC, who died childless at the age of 33, and the verse refers to the servant's prolonged days and "seed" (children).

There are other such arguments, with accurate and concise Jewish responses to each. All Jews must be aware that missionary claims should not be taken at face value, and that the Jewish rejection of the Messiahship of JC has a sound Biblical basis.

Reprinted from L'hovin U'lhaskil - A Guide to Torah Hashkofoh by Rabbi Eliezer Gevirtz (Feldheim 198 cool

Really Media, must you? I said I didn't want to get into this here, and I'm not going to. What is your beef with me anyway? neutral stressed


You asked for proof, so you got it.

My "beef" is with all Christians who think that the only way into heaven is via Jesus.

I didn't ask for proof, you shoved it in my face the minute I brought up a point you didn't like. neutral


Then what does "Proof?" mean?

[quote[And I think you're wrong for that. You have a beef with just about everyone in my church in that case,

Uh, nope. I don't know them. I don't believe that people who practise idolatry (Christians) are going to hell. You guys though, think that anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus will.

Quote:
and even with God, if what I believe is the truth.

See, comments like this are inflammatory.

That's a HUGE if, my dear.

Quote:
I've explained that I don't think I'm better then you, and really I wish you would stop trying to attack me. It's immature.
then don't ask for proof.

Quote:
And fvi, I'm afraid you still aren't making much sense to me.

My point wasn't centered around whether Jesus was the Messiah, just that the Messiah had all these prophecies surrounding Him, while Mohammad didn't. That's what I meant by I didn't ask for proof (plus you even said I asked for proof. I did not).

You said with all Christians who think that the only way into heaven is via Jesus. That includes people you don't know, like the ones who go to my church. That generalzition means you have a beef with many people.

It is inflammatory, but because of the HUGE if, it's true. wink

And like I said, I didn't. If you really think I did, please quote and bold where I did so.

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fallen_vampire_immortal

PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:23 pm


First of all Muhammed even if hes dead offending him is like abusing your dead mother Plus Dead family and friends and God-Knows what .Second of all all Prophets were Muslims, From Adam to Muhammed.

Third and last of all ,Do I have to slap some more info in your face.

Jesus is in Heaven and who save him from Christian Romans who were trying to KILL him?????


ALLAH SUBHANA WA TALLAH

You Christians tried to kill your Lord (He was a Prophet) and then after you failed you worshipped him???

Thats weak Faith.

Read the Quran for Heaven's sake!

And again on abusing dead people, Is Jesus not going to bring Justic on you for abusing a fellow Prophet?!?!?!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:36 am


fallen_vampire_immortal
First of all Muhammed even if hes dead offending him is like abusing your dead mother Plus Dead family and friends and God-Knows what .Second of all all Prophets were Muslims, From Adam to Muhammed.

Third and last of all ,Do I have to slap some more info in your face.

Jesus is in Heaven and who save him from Christian Romans who were trying to KILL him?????


ALLAH SUBHANA WA TALLAH

You Christians tried to kill your Lord (He was a Prophet) and then after you failed you worshipped him???

Thats weak Faith.

Read the Quran for Heaven's sake!

And again on abusing dead people, Is Jesus not going to bring Justic on you for abusing a fellow Prophet?!?!?!


What ?! The Romans were pagan for heavens sake and everyone knows that Pilate didnt want to kill Jesus, that was the will of the Pharisees. lol Christians did not kill Jesus.

Mohammed cannot be a fellow prophet according to the bible, so why would Jesus punish anyone for denouncing him ?

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Semiremis
Captain

PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:43 pm


dio777
fallen_vampire_immortal
First of all Muhammed even if hes dead offending him is like abusing your dead mother Plus Dead family and friends and God-Knows what .Second of all all Prophets were Muslims, From Adam to Muhammed.

Third and last of all ,Do I have to slap some more info in your face.

Jesus is in Heaven and who save him from Christian Romans who were trying to KILL him?????


ALLAH SUBHANA WA TALLAH

You Christians tried to kill your Lord (He was a Prophet) and then after you failed you worshipped him???

Thats weak Faith.

Read the Quran for Heaven's sake!

And again on abusing dead people, Is Jesus not going to bring Justic on you for abusing a fellow Prophet?!?!?!


What ?! The Romans were pagan for heavens sake and everyone knows that Pilate didnt want to kill Jesus, that was the will of the Pharisees. lol Christians did not kill Jesus.

Mohammed cannot be a fellow prophet according to the bible, so why would Jesus punish anyone for denouncing him ?


Josephus writes about Pilate as if he were the devil himself and in that case Pilate wouldn't have batted an eye over the crucifixion of some unimportant Jew.

But yeah, besides the fact that we're dealing with pagan Rome, there weren't exactly Christians running around at the time.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:39 pm


Okay. To the Muslim guy.. That made this topic. Let hem believe what they want to believe. Im muslim myself. I dont care what other people think of my religeon. You guys have a right to believe in what you want to believe. You may have many other miracles. Im proud to be muslim. You might be proud to be Jewish and maybe the others are proud to be Christians. ect. Every religeon has its own right and maybe its own wrong. Dont convince them to become muslim. Just let them do whatever they want. Im saying this because i dont want all the religeons to hate Islam or so. I just want it to be regular. No haters. All religeons have somthing that is true in them. Just let it be. Do not force and say be muslim , be jewish. You get my point right? Just please end this. I dont want al lthe religeons to have fights. I hope no one took this serious in what im saying. Sorry for people who think this is Offensive. confused

xXiMay


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:24 pm


Xxmaymay_621xX
Okay. To the Muslim guy.. That made this topic. Let hem believe what they want to believe. Im muslim myself. I dont care what other people think of my religeon. You guys have a right to believe in what you want to believe. You may have many other miracles. Im proud to be muslim. You might be proud to be Jewish and maybe the others are proud to be Christians. ect. Every religeon has its own right and maybe its own wrong. Dont convince them to become muslim. Just let them do whatever they want. Im saying this because i dont want all the religeons to hate Islam or so. I just want it to be regular. No haters. All religeons have somthing that is true in them. Just let it be. Do not force and say be muslim , be jewish. You get my point right? Just please end this. I dont want al lthe religeons to have fights. I hope no one took this serious in what im saying. Sorry for people who think this is Offensive. confused
I'm actually glad that this thread happened. I learned a lot.
Though next time a debate like this sparks it would be better if everyone remember that in the eyes of someone who does not share our religions, our truths and our culture do not exist.
So, for example, judging morals in Islam based on the ethics of Christianity makes no sense.

But I like debates like this.
I think if done right, they help us grow and understand how the other person sees the world.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:11 am


Semiremis
dio777
fallen_vampire_immortal
First of all Muhammed even if hes dead offending him is like abusing your dead mother Plus Dead family and friends and God-Knows what .Second of all all Prophets were Muslims, From Adam to Muhammed.

Third and last of all ,Do I have to slap some more info in your face.

Jesus is in Heaven and who save him from Christian Romans who were trying to KILL him?????


ALLAH SUBHANA WA TALLAH

You Christians tried to kill your Lord (He was a Prophet) and then after you failed you worshipped him???

Thats weak Faith.

Read the Quran for Heaven's sake!

And again on abusing dead people, Is Jesus not going to bring Justic on you for abusing a fellow Prophet?!?!?!


What ?! The Romans were pagan for heavens sake and everyone knows that Pilate didnt want to kill Jesus, that was the will of the Pharisees. lol Christians did not kill Jesus.

Mohammed cannot be a fellow prophet according to the bible, so why would Jesus punish anyone for denouncing him ?


Josephus writes about Pilate as if he were the devil himself and in that case Pilate wouldn't have batted an eye over the crucifixion of some unimportant Jew.

But yeah, besides the fact that we're dealing with pagan Rome, there weren't exactly Christians running around at the time.


All I really meant was that if you look at the accounts in the Gospel, Pilate clearly has reservations about killing Jesus. Im not using that as testimony as to his good character, its just to say that the Gentiles wernt really responsible for Christs death.

In Luke Pilate says "I find no crime in this man" and sent him over to Herod. When Herod returns Jesus to Pilate, Pilate continues ot say "You brought me this man as one who was perverting the people; and after examining him before you, behold, I dd not find this man guilty of any of your charges against; neither did Herod, for he sent him back to us. Behold, nothing deserving death has been done by him, I will therefore chastise him and release him"

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:15 am


heart Whilst traversing the world (and I have been to many nations on this earth) I have prayed about the truth of things.
But when I pray for truth, it is not always factual truth that is given to me, but that which I need to know for myself.
Let us not bicker of our differences, but rejoice in our common blessings.
Christian, Muslim, Jew. For all who truly believe and live in the love of the one most high, there is nothing to be so sorry for.

Many times did I question why there were so many ardent faiths of God/Aion/Allah, but when I prayed, the answer was that they were one and the same. So then I asked, why allow so many religions?

The answer I received...

Religion is that which man uses to find God and to instrument his puspose. There are many ways to find God. And there are many ways to instrument his purpose.

That was as far as that answer replied before my own senses returned to me.

And because this is the Muslic thread, let's try to show some additional respect to its regard here. Although I completely understand everyone's response to everything thus far.


Tolerance isn't optional... it's necessary. heart
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:32 am


I've tried to read the Koran. I really have. But, it's written badly, with terrible logic, and it contradicts itself at every turn.

I've read that women are equals and to be treated exactly as men, and then that they are less than men. I have read that Jews are your brothers, and then that they are demons and liars. I have read that God is everywhere, and that saying that he is anywhere but one place is punishable by death.

Such an illogical religion I can not have.

divineseraph


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:27 pm


divineseraph
I've tried to read the Koran. I really have. But, it's written badly, with terrible logic, and it contradicts itself at every turn.

I've read that women are equals and to be treated exactly as men, and then that they are less than men. I have read that Jews are your brothers, and then that they are demons and liars. I have read that God is everywhere, and that saying that he is anywhere but one place is punishable by death.

Such an illogical religion I can not have.
I've never read the Quran...

But I do know that the bible is full of contradictions and I hear it's pretty popular... XD
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:03 pm


brainnsoup
divineseraph
I've tried to read the Koran. I really have. But, it's written badly, with terrible logic, and it contradicts itself at every turn.

I've read that women are equals and to be treated exactly as men, and then that they are less than men. I have read that Jews are your brothers, and then that they are demons and liars. I have read that God is everywhere, and that saying that he is anywhere but one place is punishable by death.

Such an illogical religion I can not have.
I've never read the Quran...

But I do know that the bible is full of contradictions and I hear it's pretty popular... XD

I've heard that about the Bible, except that withe Bbible most of those contradictions are about God. The truth is though, if He's a living being, and more complex then us (because we're the creation) He shouldn't exactly one way. There should be more to Him then there'd be to a person, and he shouldn't be either just loving, or just wrathful. The other contradictions I put down to erors from being transfered imperfectly from another language, and Biblical scripture being taken out of context. If you read it all together, and it all fits, then there's no proof against it. From what seraph is saying, that's not how it is in the Quran.

xxEverBluexx

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Zslone2

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:23 pm


Sorry man can't believe in one God. If i did then idk where i would be but I just don't believe in your miracles, your mosques thing is just a thing that happened don't mean Allah did it just means it happened maybe the mosque was well built or something idk but your miracles are illogical to me and I can't believe in them. No offense man.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:23 pm


xxEternallyBluexx
brainnsoup
divineseraph
I've tried to read the Koran. I really have. But, it's written badly, with terrible logic, and it contradicts itself at every turn.

I've read that women are equals and to be treated exactly as men, and then that they are less than men. I have read that Jews are your brothers, and then that they are demons and liars. I have read that God is everywhere, and that saying that he is anywhere but one place is punishable by death.

Such an illogical religion I can not have.
I've never read the Quran...

But I do know that the bible is full of contradictions and I hear it's pretty popular... XD

I've heard that about the Bible, except that withe Bbible most of those contradictions are about God. The truth is though, if He's a living being, and more complex then us (because we're the creation) He shouldn't exactly one way. There should be more to Him then there'd be to a person, and he shouldn't be either just loving, or just wrathful. The other contradictions I put down to erors from being transfered imperfectly from another language, and Biblical scripture being taken out of context. If you read it all together, and it all fits, then there's no proof against it. From what seraph is saying, that's not how it is in the Quran.
XD Since I'm not up for finding the exact quotes I'm thinking of and therefore lack examples, I'll just say this.
First of all, how do you know that the quotes that you don't agree with happen to be mistranslated, but the ones that you do agree with are God's word?
If God is complex, then how can you claim to know what He means?

And second, couldn't a Muslim use exactly the same argument for the Quran?

brainnsoup
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xxEverBluexx

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:11 pm


brainnsoup
xxEternallyBluexx
brainnsoup
divineseraph
I've tried to read the Koran. I really have. But, it's written badly, with terrible logic, and it contradicts itself at every turn.

I've read that women are equals and to be treated exactly as men, and then that they are less than men. I have read that Jews are your brothers, and then that they are demons and liars. I have read that God is everywhere, and that saying that he is anywhere but one place is punishable by death.

Such an illogical religion I can not have.
I've never read the Quran...

But I do know that the bible is full of contradictions and I hear it's pretty popular... XD

I've heard that about the Bible, except that withe Bbible most of those contradictions are about God. The truth is though, if He's a living being, and more complex then us (because we're the creation) He shouldn't exactly one way. There should be more to Him then there'd be to a person, and he shouldn't be either just loving, or just wrathful. The other contradictions I put down to erors from being transfered imperfectly from another language, and Biblical scripture being taken out of context. If you read it all together, and it all fits, then there's no proof against it. From what seraph is saying, that's not how it is in the Quran.
XD Since I'm not up for finding the exact quotes I'm thinking of and therefore lack examples, I'll just say this.
First of all, how do you know that the quotes that you don't agree with happen to be mistranslated, but the ones that you do agree with are God's word?
If God is complex, then how can you claim to know what He means?

And second, couldn't a Muslim use exactly the same argument for the Quran?
After doing some research, and looking at the original language (my brother is learning the original languages for that purpose). And, like I said, context. A Bible verse can look incorrect, but when you put it together with everything else, including the historical context, it comes together.
You have to understand this takes years of study. Men have studied the Bible for a lifetime and still said there's more wisdom to be found. You aren't supposed to understand Him completely, but you are supposed to seek Him.

Nope. The Quran not only contradicts itself from passage to passage, but in historical context as well (from what I've heard. I haven't done an in depth study of Islam, but I could do some research and get some more opinions, Quran verses, and history if you want ^^).

And what's in the Quran does not match the Bible or the Torah. The New Testament (to a Christian. Not speaking for the Jews) completes the Old Testament, and the books were written thousands of years apart. Things match, that shouldn't if it were made up. The Muslims say the Quran doesn't do that because the Jews walked away from God, and the Christians got it wrong. To me, that sounds more off then a centuries old book being misinterpreted.
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