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 Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:30 pm
Apacelull Semiremis Apacelull "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson That statement made by Thomas Jefferson has always been one of my favorites but why is it listed as an atheist quote? Do you think that believers blindly follow out of fear? They couldn't have come to their own conclusions after putting some serious thought into the matter? The second bit of the quote is albeit a bit generalized and insulting. But yes plenty of religious nuts (I'm assuming there are none here) believe in god because they fear punishment and dare not question his existence. I wouldn't call it insulting at all. How many of those religious nuts have told you that they believe in God solely out of their own fear of punishment?
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:59 pm
Semiremis Apacelull Semiremis Apacelull "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson That statement made by Thomas Jefferson has always been one of my favorites but why is it listed as an atheist quote? Do you think that believers blindly follow out of fear? They couldn't have come to their own conclusions after putting some serious thought into the matter? The second bit of the quote is albeit a bit generalized and insulting. But yes plenty of religious nuts (I'm assuming there are none here) believe in god because they fear punishment and dare not question his existence. I wouldn't call it insulting at all. How many of those religious nuts have told you that they believe in God solely out of their own fear of punishment? I haven't met any personally, but yes some people on the television (forgive my source) preach God by saying how if they didn't they would go to hell and have eternal suffering.
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:17 pm
Apacelull Semiremis smile I wouldn't call it insulting at all. How many of those religious nuts have told you that they believe in God solely out of their own fear of punishment? I haven't met any personally, but yes some people on the television (forgive my source) preach God by saying how if they didn't they would go to hell and have eternal suffering. I've heard a few use that tactic to try to bring new believers into the fold, I'm just unsure on how many people only believe because they are afraid of what might happen if they're wrong. I don't know if someone is really capable of forcing themselves to believe.
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:53 pm
Epic Epicurus quote is epic. I think that this one particular god dilemma made me disregard every abrahamic religion ever since I've read it. Also, I think religion deserves some larger margin of respect, since it made the world organize itself long before science could get itself up and running. However, I can't help but feel as if there is a strong obsolescence looming over it as science progresses, and that people are fighting to keep their godly crutches.
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:11 pm
eh, the Epicurus quote is a bit shortsighted and way over used.
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:13 pm
Apacelull Soulgazer the Gnostic The Gnostic text, when addressing the question, don't use the word "evolution", true. They use the word "emanation" Meaning, that everything that exist comes from something before it, and if you could trace it back to it's root, and you traced it back far enough, you would encounter the "first thought" or "big bang". Gnostics recognized millenia ago that nothing stays the same, everything changes. Evolution or "emenation" was as natural as the sun shine. Multiverse=when a person dies, an entire world dies with him. Quote: Also as I said, Thomas Jefferson was a deist. A deist. He was not Catholic. He believed in a creator god that left right after creation, who did not intervene in human affairs. That means he didn't believe Jesus was the messiah. If there is no use for a creator god, he would not have been a deist. He already did rejected most other catholic concepts. A deist is a long way from atheism, which has been around for centuries. And to quote another Deist, (Ethan Allen) "The world is eternal, which means it has always been here"....poof....no creator god. Quote: How does intelligence work? I don't know but it definitely has to do something with neurons. If you ever took a neuroscience class that question will be answered there! Don't turn to religion for those questions. What is that makes me, me? Again you ask a very deep, philosophical question. I am the material me. Nothing more. Life is just a beautiful orchestra of chemical reactions. DNA makes me different from other humans, the way I was brought up makes me different from a human that may have the same DNA (aka an identical twin). What is the seat of consciousness? The brain! Turn to psychology for that answer. Do not turn to religion. When psychology can explain to my satisfaction how remote viewing and astral projection work,, I'll pay more attention to their opinion. If you were a quadruple amputee, and living inside a heart-lung machine, would you still be you? At what point short of unconsciousness are you missing enough mass not to be you anymore? The Gnostic text did not explain evolution via natural selection. I'm also pretty sure Thomas Jefferson did not know or was very passionate about the Gnostic text. If you need an explanation for remote viewing and astral projection, go check out some Penn and Teller Bullshit! episodes. They'll explain it to you very well and show that it is just a clever trick. Psychology does not explain the phenomena you have just described because it has been explained by magicians and entertainers. And yes I would still be myself if I were a quadruple amputee and living inside a heart-lung machine. As long as my brain is functioning healthily then I am myself. How much mass do I need to be myself? However much needs for my brain to keep running. Even if all my sense are depleted as long as the brain can function enough to have thoughts I will still be myself. Albeit it would be a one hellish prison if I lost ALL my senses. You could also say that once I am dead, I am still myself. Just not with a functioning brain. I'm sure you're implying that we all have a soul. If you learn about abiogenesis and evolution then you'll quickly realize that we have no soul. If there is a soul it has to be at a cellular level. We are, after all, multicellular organisms. I have no problem with what you believe; you can only believe what you believe after all--- I just wanted to make that clear. I would invite you to spend a night alone on the gettysburgh battlefield sometime. It's not allowed, and you would have to be sneaky about it, but there is a good possibility it would change your mind about a soul. It's been fun and interesting visiting old ground with you.
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Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:26 am
Soulgazer the Gnostic Apacelull Soulgazer the Gnostic The Gnostic text, when addressing the question, don't use the word "evolution", true. They use the word "emanation" Meaning, that everything that exist comes from something before it, and if you could trace it back to it's root, and you traced it back far enough, you would encounter the "first thought" or "big bang". Gnostics recognized millenia ago that nothing stays the same, everything changes. Evolution or "emenation" was as natural as the sun shine. Multiverse=when a person dies, an entire world dies with him. Quote: Also as I said, Thomas Jefferson was a deist. A deist. He was not Catholic. He believed in a creator god that left right after creation, who did not intervene in human affairs. That means he didn't believe Jesus was the messiah. If there is no use for a creator god, he would not have been a deist. He already did rejected most other catholic concepts. A deist is a long way from atheism, which has been around for centuries. And to quote another Deist, (Ethan Allen) "The world is eternal, which means it has always been here"....poof....no creator god. Quote: How does intelligence work? I don't know but it definitely has to do something with neurons. If you ever took a neuroscience class that question will be answered there! Don't turn to religion for those questions. What is that makes me, me? Again you ask a very deep, philosophical question. I am the material me. Nothing more. Life is just a beautiful orchestra of chemical reactions. DNA makes me different from other humans, the way I was brought up makes me different from a human that may have the same DNA (aka an identical twin). What is the seat of consciousness? The brain! Turn to psychology for that answer. Do not turn to religion. When psychology can explain to my satisfaction how remote viewing and astral projection work,, I'll pay more attention to their opinion. If you were a quadruple amputee, and living inside a heart-lung machine, would you still be you? At what point short of unconsciousness are you missing enough mass not to be you anymore? The Gnostic text did not explain evolution via natural selection. I'm also pretty sure Thomas Jefferson did not know or was very passionate about the Gnostic text. If you need an explanation for remote viewing and astral projection, go check out some Penn and Teller Bullshit! episodes. They'll explain it to you very well and show that it is just a clever trick. Psychology does not explain the phenomena you have just described because it has been explained by magicians and entertainers. And yes I would still be myself if I were a quadruple amputee and living inside a heart-lung machine. As long as my brain is functioning healthily then I am myself. How much mass do I need to be myself? However much needs for my brain to keep running. Even if all my sense are depleted as long as the brain can function enough to have thoughts I will still be myself. Albeit it would be a one hellish prison if I lost ALL my senses. You could also say that once I am dead, I am still myself. Just not with a functioning brain. I'm sure you're implying that we all have a soul. If you learn about abiogenesis and evolution then you'll quickly realize that we have no soul. If there is a soul it has to be at a cellular level. We are, after all, multicellular organisms. I have no problem with what you believe; you can only believe what you believe after all--- I just wanted to make that clear. I would invite you to spend a night alone on the gettysburgh battlefield sometime. It's not allowed, and you would have to be sneaky about it, but there is a good possibility it would change your mind about a soul. It's been fun and interesting visiting old ground with you. I would also invite you to a biology lecture on abiogenesis and evolution by natural selection. I don't think witnessing human suffering would change my mind on the existence of a soul. Truth has little to do with my own feelings. I agree it would probably change me, but it wouldn't change my mind about the existence of a soul.
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Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:22 pm
Soulgazer the Gnostic I would invite you to spend a night alone on the gettysburgh battlefield sometime. It's not allowed, and you would have to be sneaky about it, but there is a good possibility it would change your mind about a soul. It's been fun and interesting visiting old ground with you. Sorry, had to interject here. First off, there's no need to sneak onto the battlefield at Gettysburg, there are many other 'haunted' sites out there and being the Trekkie that I am I don't think I would settle on concluding that unexplained sightings or experiences are caused by the souls of the dead. There could be other explanations, some sort of echo of the past or time loop or it may even have to do with multiple parallel universes (their existence has growing support in the scientific community). And now to the more boring but more likely explanations: human psychology, or some sort of natural phenomenon on earth... Or it could be a soul, or ghost.
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Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:22 pm
Semiremis Soulgazer the Gnostic I would invite you to spend a night alone on the gettysburgh battlefield sometime. It's not allowed, and you would have to be sneaky about it, but there is a good possibility it would change your mind about a soul. It's been fun and interesting visiting old ground with you. Sorry, had to interject here. First off, there's no need to sneak onto the battlefield at Gettysburg, there are many other 'haunted' sites out there and being the Trekkie that I am I don't think I would settle on concluding that unexplained sightings or experiences are caused by the souls of the dead. There could be other explanations, some sort of echo of the past or time loop or it may even have to do with multiple parallel universes (their existence has growing support in the scientific community). And now to the more boring but more likely explanations: human psychology, or some sort of natural phenomenon on earth... Or it could be a soul, or ghost. Oh it's a haunted site? Lol woops. Yah don't turn to explanations such as "souls of the dead." There are so many more reasonable explanations that do not break the laws of physics or bring up more questions than they answer.
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Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:11 pm
Apacelull Semiremis Soulgazer the Gnostic I would invite you to spend a night alone on the gettysburgh battlefield sometime. It's not allowed, and you would have to be sneaky about it, but there is a good possibility it would change your mind about a soul. It's been fun and interesting visiting old ground with you. Sorry, had to interject here. First off, there's no need to sneak onto the battlefield at Gettysburg, there are many other 'haunted' sites out there and being the Trekkie that I am I don't think I would settle on concluding that unexplained sightings or experiences are caused by the souls of the dead. There could be other explanations, some sort of echo of the past or time loop or it may even have to do with multiple parallel universes (their existence has growing support in the scientific community). And now to the more boring but more likely explanations: human psychology, or some sort of natural phenomenon on earth... Or it could be a soul, or ghost. Oh it's a haunted site? Lol woops. Yah don't turn to explanations such as "souls of the dead." There are so many more reasonable explanations that do not break the laws of physics or bring up more questions than they answer. Maybe. However, when you have had the experience, then you may have a bit more insight. It's easy to sit and discuss these things analytically when in a safe familiar environment. No, I was not inviting anyone to an active battlefield, though there "is nothing quite so exhilarating as being shot at and missed". Breaking the law of physics? LOL! Physics only covers what it has studied.... a flying machine used to break the laws of physics, until new laws were discovered to cover them. Think there were no scientist in the crowd of scoffers? Think all the laws have been discovered? Close all the labs then, they're wasting their time! The point of the matter is---you don't know what a ghost is. I don't know what a ghost is. The president doesn't know what a ghost is, though I understand more than one has had an encounter in the white house. God, the soul, ghost, spirits people either "believe" they are one thing, or they "believe" they are another. Either way it's a religion. It's all based on the way people desire the universe to be, neat and orderly according to their personal world view. People who get into heated arguments over the existence of things that can not be proven either way are idiots of the first order, so don't expect that type of argument from me. But I do get a kick out of the religion of non existence as much as I do the religion of absolutes. I have encountered things in my life that shook my complacency, that knocked over the house of cards that I built around myself. So I don't scoff at those who believe one way or the other. I encourage people to experiment, get out there and do things. Who knows, maybe you'll be the one to discover the physical laws governing parts of the so far unexplained; Someday someone will, but that person will have a mind open to all the possibilities, a Pasteur, or Röntgen. There never has been a shortage of scoffers of any kind in the world.
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Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:35 pm
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:53 pm
Semiremis Apacelull Semiremis Apacelull "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson That statement made by Thomas Jefferson has always been one of my favorites but why is it listed as an atheist quote? Do you think that believers blindly follow out of fear? They couldn't have come to their own conclusions after putting some serious thought into the matter? The second bit of the quote is albeit a bit generalized and insulting. But yes plenty of religious nuts (I'm assuming there are none here) believe in god because they fear punishment and dare not question his existence. I wouldn't call it insulting at all. How many of those religious nuts have told you that they believe in God solely out of their own fear of punishment? So I went spelunking back into guild history for the heck of it and somehow found this specific thread. Look at who made that quote. At the time, a lot of those that dwelt in the Northeastern United States DID use such tactics. Puritans were all fire and brimstone. 'Believe in God and behave a certain way or you'll BURN in the fires of hell!' I don't believe there's nearly as many sects of Christianity currently that host such attitudes but they were more plentiful at the time Jefferson was alive. An example of that particular attitude hosted by the churches of the Northeast was the infamous Salem Witch Trials. That's perhaps the most famous example I can think of in America where a church literally ruled in fear. In this case though, that quote can be used in an atheist context depending on how you look at the statement itself but in all actuality he was more than likely referring to Puritans.
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:39 pm
"I do not feel that I am the product of chance, a speck of dust in the universe, but someone who was expected, prepared, prefigured. In short, a being whom only a Creator could put here; and this idea of a creatin hand refers to God." ~ Jean-Paul Sartre
"If there is no God, then everything is permitted." ~ Dostoevsky
"Moral properties constitute so odd a cluster of qualities and relations that they are most unlikely to have arisen in the ordinary course of events without an all-powerful god to create them." ~ J.L. Mackie
"The sense of moral relativism, skepticism and nihilism rampant in our age is due in large measure to the general weakening of religious belief in an age of science. Without God there can be no objective foundation for our moral beliefs...Without religious belief, without the Living God, there could be no adequate answer to the persistently gnawing questions: What ought we to do? How ought I to live?" ~ Kai Nielson
I hope these are all okay. They're all quoted from atheists, even if they don't support atheism. sweatdrop
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Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:02 pm
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:02 am
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true."
- Mark Twain
i think its more like
"Faith is believing something you know un fact"
and the "believing" became truth in a personal perspective
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