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 Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 2:38 pm
X-Raziel Hotokashi-X Ladies and gentlemen, please. Bioshock is pulp fiction/psycho thriller set in the 1960s. Sure, there are steampunk elements to it, but that's because it's pulp fiction. I believe that has already been established (as far as the majority are concerned, at any rate).
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Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 5:16 pm
Eumorpha Dixie Dellamorto Xeigrich I'd like to ask, where is the steam in Bioshock? I'm not defending it... I'm just pointing it out... though I don't know how redirecting water thru a "steam-powered" turret gun will keep it from killing you... but whatever... I would also like to add the chemical thrower, as it emitted steam sometimes when you hit it. And the really creepy room in Dandy Dental that blew clouds of steam in your face in the Medical Area. You know the one, where you go to look at that desk in the corner, turn around and that guy is right in your face? Not to get technical or anything, but there's the steam. =D On top of that, I'd like to throw Hephaestus in there. Not because it's particularly steampunk, because technically there was no steam in there, but there were giant gears in there. Lots of them. =D The turrets are internal-combustion powered. One weapon that occasionally spurts steam does not constitute steampunk. Neither do gears. Atmospheric steam is as irrelevant to steampunk as natural fog in the morning. And the hacking minigame is never shown to make sense in the least, but to assume that it's water flowing through there does NOT make any more sense. If you freeze a machine, then try to hack it, the liquid moves slower.... If that were water in the hacking minigame, wouldn't the liquid stop completely? -- since, you know, water freezes very easily and if the whole machine is made so cold as to be suddenly covered in ice and icicles, then any water on the inside would be frozen, too. Water does not become more viscous unless you dissolve something in it, like sugar, and if it's not plain water then that would surely contradict the basic workings of a steam engine. The only way it would even remotely make sense with water is if the water was part of a cooling system (and even then it'd work better if it were antifreeze or something) and when you re-route it it makes the machine go haywire due to overheating. I can't think of any scenario in which water becomes thicker and more viscous purely by chilling it. The liquid in the minigame pipes is may just be some sort of conductive substance and the pipes work like circuitry. Whether it's coolant, or circuitry, either way... What would water in pipes have to do with steam? I can put water cooling tubes in my PC but that doesn't have anything to do with steam power. I've said many times that you can't have steampunk without steam power... But it also stands to reason that Water, Steam, and Steam Power do not automatically constitute steampunk. If that were the case, then saunas would be steampunk -- there's steam, hot coals, AND wood panels! What it really boils down to (pun intended) is that the steam power has to be anachronistically relevant and more technologically advanced than similar possible technologies, or at least set in a time or world where steam power is developed to a comparable standard. Just covering my ground.
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Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 5:50 pm
@Xeigrich: ...I never thought about that.
FRUCK YEAAARH SAUNAS.
*ahem*
Clothing-wise, it's a tad hard to fit steam into. The reason steampunk loses a bit of the steam from person to person is just that reason, but when it comes to tech and modding, things should generally contain steam-elements...
However, that's part of the reason I also don't consider Wild Arms (the whole series) as steampunk. The most steampunk-ish part of the series is probably 3, but considering that the planet doesn't have WATER, there's no STEAM, amirite? (Mind you, I haven't played 4, or beaten 5 yet--I just won't touch 4 because I hear it was so bland.)
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Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 7:16 pm
I'm not going to read all of that, not because I'm trying to be rude... But because no matter what you have to say about it it's never going to make sense. I know it's not steampunk, and that it never will be steampunk. It's just the closest thing to steampunk that game has to offer. And be it water, antifreeze, super lube... what have you, it'll never change the fact that no matter how you direct a liquid through a machine... it will never give it and or change it's AI. Even in the realm of steampunk it's a stretch.
Anyway I've never pointed out my personal interpretation on the subject of steampunk.
When I think of steampunk I of an alternate History. A history where the people of our earth were never able to progress past the usage of steam power, though technological breakthroughs were made, such as the computer, the car, Robots etc.
I also think of Current Steampunk as being the result of that alternate history, being an alternate modern day (as in taking place right here, right now 200 cool where steam power is still widely used. Our culture hasn't progressed past that of the 19th century Victorian era. Usually in England Though The American Wild West is also a popular theme... Clockpunk is a funny thing to me because they are the same damn thing.... take the steam away and it's clockpunk? No no, my good man. There is a lot of clockwork in steampunk. Not every damn thing in steampunk is steam powered. To split the two would be redundant. Most steampunk fasion has clockwork, gears and cogs added to various things, as well as pocket watches. So I don't know... does that make any sense? I'm confident that it makes more sense then the hacking system in Bioshock...
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Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 8:20 pm
Dixie Dellamorto I'm not going to read all of that, not because I'm trying to be rude... But because no matter what you have to say about it it's never going to make sense. I know it's not steampunk, and that it never will be steampunk. It's just the closest thing to steampunk that game has to offer. And be it water, antifreeze, super lube... what have you, it'll never change the fact that no matter how you direct a liquid through a machine... it will never give it and or change it's AI. Even in the realm of steampunk it's a stretch.
Anyway I've never pointed out my personal interpretation on the subject of steampunk.
When I think of steampunk I of an alternate History. A history where the people of our earth were never able to progress past the usage of steam power, though technological breakthroughs were made, such as the computer, the car, Robots etc.
I also think of Current Steampunk as being the result of that alternate history, being an alternate modern day (as in taking place right here, right now 200 cool where steam power is still widely used. Our culture hasn't progressed past that of the 19th century Victorian era. Usually in England Though The American Wild West is also a popular theme... Clockpunk is a funny thing to me because they are the same damn thing.... take the steam away and it's clockpunk? No no, my good man. There is a lot of clockwork in steampunk. Not every damn thing in steampunk is steam powered. To split the two would be redundant. Most steampunk fasion has clockwork, gears and cogs added to various things, as well as pocket watches. So I don't know... does that make any sense? I'm confident that it makes more sense then the hacking system in Bioshock... I generally assume that no-one reads the entirety of my posts, as I fully acknowledge being circumlocutory and, in a nutshell, verbose. xp AI Hacking In Videogames:To be fair to the developers and designers, the hacking system in System Shock 2 didn't make much sense either. You'd think that, as programmers, they'd have a much better understanding of how AI works, and they'd know that hardware hacking, especially in a cyberpunk setting, isn't going to be so easy as randomly poking at nodes or "rerouting" some "subchannels" (or some other techno nonsense) and hoping the robot or security system magically knows who you are from there on. Blast it all, I'm gonna go play Bioshock once more when I'm done with this post! Clockpunk Relative to Steampunk:Clock punk is simple, but it's definitely not just what's left of common steampunk when you take away the development and sophistication of steam power. Amazing things really can be achieved by pure mechanical manipulation powered by wound coils, etc. If the analytic engine were developed and supported even just a little bit more than it was, and was actually constructed by Babbage himself in the 1800's... Why, that lays perfect ground for a clockpunk world! Who needs steam when you have raw mechanical power? Remember, clockpunk isn't just gears, sprockets, chains, and belts... As with steampunk's steam engine, clockpunk relies on winding coils, falling weights (like a pendulum clock), and other tension and gravity based mechanical technologies. Potential energy, my friends! Depending on the various developments and "because I say so" alternate history telling, you very well COULD have steampunk without clockpunk elements, or clockpunk without steampunk elements. All O' Them Gears and Whatnot:Steampunk and clockpunk share common elements such as the gears, sprockets, chains and whatnot because those are rather basic implements for transferring energy and motion. A steam engine needs gears and sprockets and such just as much as any machine -- even modern internal combustion and electric vehicles are full of belts and wheels and gears. The only TRUE difference between clockpunk and steampunk is where the primary technological advancement lies. That is to say, of course clockpunk is found within steampunk, but it's not truly "clockpunk" unless the clockpunk bits surpass the steam powered bits. I also imagine clockpunk as having a lot of man-powered machines, like handcars and pedal-powered vehicles, but of course that type of machinery is likely to be found in any pseudomodern setting. But in no way are clockpunk and steampunk the same thing. that's like saying dieselpunk and nukepunk (atompunk/atomicpunk/etc) are the same thing because it's possible to have internal combustion and nuclear power at the same time. If internal combustion progresses faster, you have the modern world as we know it, but if atomic power progresses faster (or, say, too fast), you end up with the Fallout world. EDIT: Just to clear something up, I started playing Bioshock again. It's still every bit as awesome. But when I first went to hack something, it shows a short tutorial screen that specifically says "Guide the flow of metallic liquid to the Exit Pipe. This new circuit will rewire the machine for desired effects." That's great and all for confirming it's circuitry instead of cooling or some other function, but.... besides mercury, what in the world could they have used instead? confused
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Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 12:05 am
I don't think you can actually separate clockpunk, dieselpunk, and whatever else from steampunk. They all have differences, but there's so much common fabric....
Eh... Cooling? Liquid nitrogen? I don't know. razz Figured I'd throw that out there. As for conductivity, there's a number of liquids that could be used. Mercury, yes, but in the presence of heat, it could prove to be a bad choice.
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Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 12:58 am
Vahn Malice I don't think you can actually separate clockpunk, dieselpunk, and whatever else from steampunk. They all have differences, but there's so much common fabric.... Of course you can! Yes, they are all similar - they are all anachronisms. That is their 'thing'. But each one is quite different, set apart from the others by the era and/or type of technology it is based upon. Steampunk is steam powered. Dieselpunk has the internal combustion engine. Sandalpunk is for Roman and Greek technologies (Chariots propelled by Hero's aeolipile, for example) Stonepunk is for the stone age (think 'the Flintstones'). Can't separate them from steampunk? They're separate already! Forgive me, but surely if you wanted to refer to all of them, you'd call them 'Anachronisms'.
But that aside, they are very much separate; and the notion that dieselpunk, clockpunk etc. cannot be separated from steampunk is folly.Let steampunk be steampunk, stonepunk be stonepunk and dieselpunk be dieselpunk. They are by their very natures separate (despite being much alike in concept). Anyways, why does it all have to be 'steampunk'; could you not just as easily say that "you cannot separate dieselpunk and steampunk from 'stonepunk', since they share so much common ground"? An another note, since we're dealing with anachronisms it is all the more important to differentiate each type; after all, what is grossly out of place or advanced in one setting, will be perfectly normal in another. ~ I could just as easily say: I don't think you can actually separate strawberry, chocolate, and whatever else from triple-fudge-swirl. They all have different flavours, but there's so much common fabric in that they are all ice-creams.If I started to refer to absolutely all ice-cream as just 'triple-fudge-swirl' (even if it was summer fruits flavour) you would think me mad! and rightly so!
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Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 9:50 am
I wouldn't think you mad.
In my personal opinion, you can
either be right or you can be
happy. I would rather be happy.
Now excuse me while I dine on
this triple-fudge, strawberry,
blueberry, raspberry, snozberry
swirl of decadence!! Where's my
spoon?
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Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 1:59 pm
[is this when I ask if you're happy, and you say no?]
But at any rate, I think you can be both happy and right; but happy is the important part. Also, I am mad (well, eccentric).
To be honest, I'm not sure why I wrote that (the swathe of text above). Parts of me wish I hadn't, but I feel it deserves to remain.
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Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 2:35 pm
Snozberry... who's ever heard of a snozberry?!?
I don't think anyone is RIGHT in this matter. You may like to think that you are right, but you simply are not. You have your opinion, and that is nice, but it's nothing more then that. Being that Steampunk a parody of Cyberpunk that came about in the 80's, also the fact that it's a type of fiction that can be twisted in any which way it's writer desires means that it can be anything anyone wants it to be. Trying to definitively describe Steampunk is about as silly as saying that EVERY Fantasy Novel ever Has Hobbits and Dragons, It's simply not true.
I believe the Question is What is Your own personal view of Steampunk. My own personal View is exactly what I wrote. Any one who wants to argue in this particular forum is foolish, since you can argue until they are blue in the face and it still won't change my opinion. rofl
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Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 2:39 pm
Dixie Dellamorto Any one who wants to argue in this particular forum is foolish, since you can argue until they are blue in the face and it still won't change my opinion. rofl I love you. redface heart
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Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 2:45 pm
Eumorpha I love you. redface heart
Ditto. heart
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Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 2:52 pm
You're right, of course.
Steampunk is steampunk, I'll leave it like that. We know it when we see it.
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Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 3:03 pm
Also I'd like to apologize. Their is a difference between fact and opinion and I believe on earlier occasions I have argued on the side of fact in this Thread. I don't mean to come across as abrasive or hypocritical. Sometimes I have to put myself in check or else I look like an a**.
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Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 3:08 pm
Don't worry, I'm sure everyone has said something 'wrong' in their life. Something they put into words badly, an idea muddled in their mind, it happens. Goodness knows I've done it enough times.
I find it hard sometimes to decide what to consider 'fact' and what is opinion. In this instance, for example, that steampunk is an anachronism based around steam is pretty certain; as is that dieselpunk, stonepunk and such are all quite distinct anachronisms.
However, what actual becomes 'steampunk' is rather... odd. Steampunk is not just a genre, it is more an idea, or style - and as such it is hard to say for definite what is and what is not covered under it. Indeed, many things are both steampunk and something else entirely at the same time (the inclusion of magical inventions, for one).
Best not dwell, ey? We know steampunk when we see it, that's the important part.
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