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 Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:32 pm
Elliot Vidal fire - link not necserilly magic, but i am using alchemy (FMA style) in my webcomic, when i get around to scanning the pages on my desk... so, a handful of characters can cast fireballs and such, based on the four magical elements (fire, earth, water, wind) and the sub elements (Metal, Ice, Lightning, Gravity) however, as i say, although it is kinda magic, i use the term Alchemy in the same way FMA does, as a more acceptable term for magic. Yea, I'm cool with using Alchemy as a science, because that is who it is studied and how characters approach it, but I still err on the side of caution and would call a setting with it in fantasy, just a less fantastic fantasy than regular magic. well, i explained it poorly anyway. since the main characters travel between planets (countries have expanded to individual planets) some cultures have resurfaced, such as the mayans, and i wanted some way to represent the god-like golden mayan magic, so i decided on the whole alchemy thing for it. besides, thats only one chapter in my comic, the rest has VERY little magic, and focuses on the steam side
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:06 pm
Elliot Vidal And this is not just an opinion, but by necessity: By the definition, a work with magic in it is in the fantasy genre, and we cannot allow Steampunk to include magic, and thus always be a Fantasy genre, by standard, as this allows no place for works that are Steampunk in all but magic to exist, which is ludicrous, as Steampunk in it's inception was all about rampant Scientific advancement in a Victorian(-like) era. It makes no sense at all to have "includes magic" in part of the definition of Steampunk, that is reserved for Fantasy addendum. ... right, so if i have understood this right, your saying that if it has magic, it's not steampunk, but steampunk inspired fantasy, right? surely it all depends on the proportions, for example: a fantastical setting where everyone wears brightly coloured robes and pointy hats, one of them has a fake leg built with brass, gears, etc. (Fantasy with steampunk influences) example 2: a dystopian setting where everyone wears goggles, waistcoats/corsets, etc, and everything is in shades of brown (i'm being stereotypical for explanation purposes) one character can control water with his mind (Steampunk with fantasy influences)
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:39 pm
Captain Amaranth I beg to differ. With magic, steampunk is boring (for me at least) - steampunk for me is all about the might of technology and the human mind, not whatever weird energies are floating around. Magic seems to make it too easy. I prefer steampunk without magic. That's not to say I think steampunk with magic is a bad idea; indeed, it can be done magnificently. I just prefer it without. Firstly, magic bugged me a little in that it has the habit of explaining itself. Why does it work? It just does. This ruins it a little for me; especially when it's just used as an excuse to get away with something crazy. I always preferred science-fiction. Whatever happened, it was always the result of rational activity. The laws of physics might be bent a little (as reality must be in fiction); but everything was explained perfectly rationally, and it made sense. And that made it better for me, because magnificent feats were always the result of science and human (or alien) endeavour, and I like that. The thing I really like about steampunk is the spirit of it; taking steam power and performing immense feats of engineering with it - like giant mechanical spiders, or flying cities. And its all an achievement because intelligence and technology is behind it all. All these wonders and made more prevalent by the technology behind it; that of steam power, creating engines which seem alive in their operation. Indeed, aether (or rather, odd chemicals and their effects) can be used to wondrous effect. Rampant progress of science! not magic! I like the wonder of technology and science, not unexplained magic. But to me, magic ruins it a little. Nothing is quite an achievement anymore. Suppose you create a device the size of the room which will create the most perfect cup of tea ever; only to find your friends conjuring one into existence (or moving things about the make it) - why bother with the machine? But that aside, surely the wonders of technology pale in comparison to the spontaneous effects of the magic, however simple they may be. Obviously, the more limitless the magic the more it affects things. My acceptable limit is parlour magic, feats of minor conjuration and illusion, or mayhaps communing with spirits. Shooting lasers from your hands is right out (take that, giant robot spider). Supernatural stuff (werewolves, vampires, spirits) can work very well. If the magic is explained in a rational manner, however, that makes things better. Off the top of my head, I can't actually think of that many steampunk works with magic (at least that pulled it off well). ~ But as I said, I don't hate steampunk with magic. Such works can be truly splendid, and I enjoy them immensely all the same. 'tis all a matter of taste I will have to agree with you. However, the only way I see magic work in the steampunk universe is that the stories suggest a power struggle between the two. Magic for those who are afraid to forsake their teachings of the "Old Ways" leading in obedience to their gods; and science to those who wish only for change and the strong belief of shaping their own destiny without the fear of believing that free will is an illusion. Much like a political satire of logic and reasoning versus religion.
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:10 pm
As a rule I'm never strict about what I enjoy in anyone genre. I have always found that it limited me to much. I don't want to reject something and then miss out on something wonderful. So I accept any change or addition to a genre until I am sure that it is something that I do not like.
I mean a genre is nothing without it's sub genres and even sub genres are nothing with their sub genres. It's those sub genres that offer something new and fresh to a genre and keep it alive. If not then things just get ridiculously repetitive and boring.
So I think it's an interesting addition. But then I have always liked the juxtaposition of logic versus the illogical of tech versus magic. But that's just me. So I don't mind it and I wouldn't mind to see more.
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Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:16 am
fire - link Elliot Vidal And this is not just an opinion, but by necessity: By the definition, a work with magic in it is in the fantasy genre, and we cannot allow Steampunk to include magic, and thus always be a Fantasy genre, by standard, as this allows no place for works that are Steampunk in all but magic to exist, which is ludicrous, as Steampunk in it's inception was all about rampant Scientific advancement in a Victorian(-like) era. It makes no sense at all to have "includes magic" in part of the definition of Steampunk, that is reserved for Fantasy addendum. ... right, so if i have understood this right, your saying that if it has magic, it's not steampunk, but steampunk inspired fantasy, right? How many times must I say this. If it Steampunk, it is Steampunk. If it then has magic as well, it is Steampunk Fantasy. I am saying that it can be both. It is both with equal validity, just like any cross-genre work, like Romantic Comedy and Crime Triller. All I am saying is the Steampunk Fantasy does not have magic. Sorry if I was not clear in the post you quoted.
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Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:25 am
Elliot Vidal fire - link Elliot Vidal And this is not just an opinion, but by necessity: By the definition, a work with magic in it is in the fantasy genre, and we cannot allow Steampunk to include magic, and thus always be a Fantasy genre, by standard, as this allows no place for works that are Steampunk in all but magic to exist, which is ludicrous, as Steampunk in it's inception was all about rampant Scientific advancement in a Victorian(-like) era. It makes no sense at all to have "includes magic" in part of the definition of Steampunk, that is reserved for Fantasy addendum. ... right, so if i have understood this right, your saying that if it has magic, it's not steampunk, but steampunk inspired fantasy, right? How many times must I say this. If it Steampunk, it is Steampunk. If it then has magic as well, it is Steampunk Fantasy. I am saying that it can be both. It is both with equal validity, just like any cross-genre work, like Romantic Comedy and Crime Triller. All I am saying is the Steampunk Fantasy does not have magic. Sorry if I was not clear in the post you quoted. I'm afraid that they are Correct: Steampunk (or at least Novels which we now call Steampunk), did inspire Science Fiction and Fantasy in equal measure. Whether you (or we) want to admit it or not, Steampunk is located in the dead center of both Fantasy and Science Fiction. I think, if we can sum up Steampunk within two words (for me at least), they would be 'Imaginative re-imagination'. Within this definition, there is room for both pure science, and blending of Magic and Technology. They are both, however, Steampunk. No Hyphen. Steampunk is inherently fantastical, just as much as it is grounded in imaginative science (which strangely enough proved true in many cases (e.g.: Submarines).
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Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:52 am
Surely the defining feature of steampunk are steam-based anachronisms, no magic involved? It doesn't have to have magic; it doesn't have to be fantasy. I can think of plenty of steampunk works with no magic or fantasy at all.
Wouldn't that make magic more of a 'welcome addition' than an integral part of steampunk (regardless of whether or not there are steampunk works with magic [or other fantasy elements] in)? If you put magic in it can still be steampunk.
Comparing it to elsewhere, I've read many steampunk novels based around crime; and yet crime is not a definitive part of steampunk.
~
My point isn't that Steampunk can't have magic; more that it doesn't have to have any magic at all - as indeed many steampunk works don't have any magic or other fantasy elements to speak of.
Magic isn't a defining feature or essentially conclusion to steampunk.
So there are steampunk works with magic, but that doesn't mean magic is an integral part of steampunk.
There are many steampunk works based around crime (such as Pax Britannia); and yet crime is not a defining feature of steampunk; so why should magic be?
NB: The same applies to adventure, romance, horror.... all fit in well, none are necessary to steampunk, nor define it.
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Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:56 am
Captain Amaranth Surely the defining feature of steampunk are steam-based anachronisms, no magic involved? It doesn't have to have magic; it doesn't have to be fantasy. I can think of plenty of steampunk works with no magic or fantasy at all.Wouldn't that make magic more of a 'welcome addition' than an integral part of steampunk (regardless of whether or not there are steampunk works with magic [or other fantasy elements] in)? If you put magic in it can still be steampunk. Comparing it to elsewhere, I've read many steampunk novels based around crime; and yet crime is not a definitive part of steampunk. I had to mull this one over briefly, but I believe I can stand behind it. The very foundation of Steampunk make it quite quite acceptable with magic.
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Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:26 am
Sidnay The very foundation of Steampunk make it quite quite acceptable with magic. Indeed so; much as magic is quite acceptable in most settings. But 'tis not a defining feature is all.
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Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 11:49 pm
I think that magic goes well with Steampunk, but int he sense of magic evolving around the theme of the world itself. Here's a few spells I cooked up for a Steampunk RP character of mine. I am sure that hey exist in similar form in countless other similar places, and I claim no rite of intellectual property.
Create Clockwork Golem
Steam Cannon (A cone of steam)
Summon Steamblade (A sword with a blade of scalding steam)
Warp Metal
Considering it is a game with ray guns in most settings, I think magic is a good additional tool, when used in moderation.
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Posted: Sat May 02, 2009 6:33 am
Benjamin Bradt I think that magic goes well with Steampunk, but int he sense of magic evolving around the theme of the world itself. Here's a few spells I cooked up for a Steampunk RP character of mine. I am sure that hey exist in similar form in countless other similar places, and I claim no rite of intellectual property. Create Clockwork Golem Steam Cannon (A cone of steam) Summon Steamblade (A sword with a blade of scalding steam) Warp Metal Considering it is a game with ray guns in most settings, I think magic is a good additional tool, when used in moderation. agreed, magic is a tool to be used as a minr power in the world of steampunk under world, and also great spells, but is the summon steamblade similar to summon familiar.
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Posted: Sat May 02, 2009 11:10 am
Freedom the wolf Benjamin Bradt I think that magic goes well with Steampunk, but int he sense of magic evolving around the theme of the world itself. Here's a few spells I cooked up for a Steampunk RP character of mine. I am sure that hey exist in similar form in countless other similar places, and I claim no rite of intellectual property. Create Clockwork Golem Steam Cannon (A cone of steam) Summon Steamblade (A sword with a blade of scalding steam) Warp Metal Considering it is a game with ray guns in most settings, I think magic is a good additional tool, when used in moderation. agreed, magic is a tool to be used as a minr power in the world of steampunk under world, and also great spells, but is the summon steamblade similar to summon familiar. That seems to follow my own reasoning involving magick. If a person can do something with their own two hands, they should.
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Posted: Sat May 02, 2009 1:31 pm
My take on magic and steampunk is that that they can coexist, but the magic can easily overshadow steampunk if it's full on magic.
The thing is when people add magic to a world, if they use the common D&D like magic, it tends to make much of the stuff fore steampunk look silly, as what can be done with steam, can be done better with magic.
But if the magic is more restrictive, or even only usable by one group of people, then the steampunk is widely uninfected. I think the spirit of steampunk tech is necessity restricted to the power of the steam engine.
You can have a "steampunk" setting that is mainly D&D but in the end it's just something that looks Steampunky. the element of magic can easily take away what is "steampunk" as it can take away from allot of other things, mostly do to that magic can easily be used to get around things that steam power cannot.
Magic is not so much a problem in the story I'm (Slowly..) making, as magic can only be used by the Drows, and it's not as grand as you find in D&D. the humans use extravagant steam base tech to counter the Drows Mana.
As for D&D magic in steampunk, having it as a minor power is best for it, like having a gun the is magic powered, or a golem, but when it becomes a main power, then it kind of brakes down the flow of a Steampunk settings.
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Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 11:54 pm
This lively little debate has reminded me of 3 great personal truths. 1. While most works of "Steampunk" I have started to enjoy in the relatively short time I have known it as that have not had magic, only science, the FIRST that I ever labeled as such DID have magic, unless you consider the talking animal daemons in The Golden Compass scientific. 2. The Punk part of Steampunk is the DIY-ness of it all. It doesn't HAVE to mean the same thing to everyone. 3. I am an incredible GEEK and Venn Diagrams are ALWAYS AWESOME. redface
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Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:19 am
I'd like to bring up Clarke's Third Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Strictly speaking, anything in Steampunk could be counted as magic, so long as you don't explain it. Why? Because use of the word "magic" is only to describe that which is unexplained. For instance, Harry Potter's "magic" could very well be counted as a science, as we know at least part of how they make it work - spells, and the like. But it's never certain what makes wizards and what makes Muggles (assumed to be genetics), and HOW spells allow magic to work, or where this power really comes from. I also remember an account of natives in areas untouched by modern society who believed airplanes to be great monsters, demons of supernatural origin. I could've even sworn I heard an account once of natives seeing a cargo plane land, with food and supplies extracted from the hold, only to believe that this plane was a great god, bestowing boons upon humanity. They proceeded to create altars in the form of runway strips, hoping to please these gods. ...I wish I could remember it properly. Any of those could have even been helicopters. sweatdrop Uhhh, long story short... many portions of Steampunk can probably blend technology and magic. Hell, I wonder if you could even have stories of machines that run on magic. (I'm totally planning one - I'm even explaining it pseudoscientifically, haha.)
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