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 Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 2:06 pm
Behatzlacha-S Link_of_Hylia I have a circumsized heart and mind, one that's set apart by God for God and through my blood I'm Jewish. People who believe in Yeshua as their Messiah may have the same set apart heart and mind as me, and that's why I believe we should accept them as Jewish people. Yeah... They'd be Jewish if it weren't for that tiny detail: They worship a man as G-d.Not very Jewish, really. Because, you know, G-d doesn't really like you worshipping material things as your god. God chose the Jews as his people. Now how does that make Gentiles feel who want to know the Jewish God? (The only God) The same goes for Christian ideology. They feel as if God chose his son to be human and save humans Jew or Gentile. Now how does that make the Gentiles feel? Christianity and Judaism don't differ because of Yeshua. It differs because of a church, that for thousands of years have never understood our beliefs and respected them. It's because of a church that has rubbed in our faces "believe in Yeshua or else". I figure our difference with Christianity isn't Yeshua or his ideals... its the ideals of the church and the Jewish people. That's why I try to seem apologetic to the Messianic Jews because they're not the church. They're Jews who believe in Yeshua. Eh? But that's my view.
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Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 3:59 pm
Link_of_Hylia Why is it that the belief in a Jew or a Gentile alongside Judaism makes you non-Jewish? I guess what I'm trying to say is why would the belief in a man like Yeshua take you away from your people. I don't think that if you believe in Yeshua you do anything that is seperate from the torah. Also believing in Yeshua doesn't make you Christian. Joining churches makes you Christian. I think Jewish believers in Yeshua are counted as Jews and have just as much reason to keep their Jewishness than do Gentiles keeping their traditions. 1. Believing in Jesus as the messiah makes one a Christian. Not a Jew. Believing in a specifically non-Jewish god (or man-as-god), who taught decidedly non-Jewish principles, and is the cornerstone of a non-Jewish faith, makes one a non-Jew. Speak to a rabbi -- a real one, not a Messianic one -- if the reasons for this are unclear. 2. Jews, not non-Jews, have the right to define the criteria for being, or becoming, Jews. What a non-Jew believes about the subject may be an interesting subject for debate, but is entirely irrelevant to the way Jews will define Jews and Judaism. 3. A fun little quote from the Jewish Gaians Guild homepage: For all those Gaian Jews out there, this is a place to come and converse with other Jews. Be you Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Reconstructionist -- we don't care! We do not, however, like "Jews for Jesus."(If you are a J4J and really want to join, you'd better prove damn well that you will not simply barge in and holler about Yeshua this and Yeshua that. Another quote from the same source: We have a very open acceptance policy, but please, try not to turn this into a religious battleground. Don't be all "OMGOMG JESUS IS SOOO WONDERFUL" or "OMG HEY GUYS THE MESSIAH HAS ALREADY COME AND YOU SHOULD ACCEPT JESUS AS UR LORD AND SAVIOR." This is a place for Jewishness and Jewishdom, unapologetically. We don't plan on prosthelytizing to you, so please respect us (and our faith) by returning such in kind. More of this type of action, Link_of_Hylia, will result in banning from the JGG. This is your first and last warning. Thanks for playing. Have a nice day.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 7:00 pm
Divash Link_of_Hylia Why is it that the belief in a Jew or a Gentile alongside Judaism makes you non-Jewish? I guess what I'm trying to say is why would the belief in a man like Yeshua take you away from your people. I don't think that if you believe in Yeshua you do anything that is seperate from the torah. Also believing in Yeshua doesn't make you Christian. Joining churches makes you Christian. I think Jewish believers in Yeshua are counted as Jews and have just as much reason to keep their Jewishness than do Gentiles keeping their traditions. 1. Believing in Jesus as the messiah makes one a Christian. Not a Jew. Believing in a specifically non-Jewish god (or man-as-god), who taught decidedly non-Jewish principles, and is the cornerstone of a non-Jewish faith, makes one a non-Jew. Speak to a rabbi -- a real one, not a Messianic one -- if the reasons for this are unclear. 2. Jews, not non-Jews, have the right to define the criteria for being, or becoming, Jews. What a non-Jew believes about the subject may be an interesting subject for debate, but is entirely irrelevant to the way Jews will define Jews and Judaism. 3. A fun little quote from the Jewish Gaians Guild homepage: For all those Gaian Jews out there, this is a place to come and converse with other Jews. Be you Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Reconstructionist -- we don't care! We do not, however, like "Jews for Jesus."(If you are a J4J and really want to join, you'd better prove damn well that you will not simply barge in and holler about Yeshua this and Yeshua that. Another quote from the same source: We have a very open acceptance policy, but please, try not to turn this into a religious battleground. Don't be all "OMGOMG JESUS IS SOOO WONDERFUL" or "OMG HEY GUYS THE MESSIAH HAS ALREADY COME AND YOU SHOULD ACCEPT JESUS AS UR LORD AND SAVIOR." This is a place for Jewishness and Jewishdom, unapologetically. We don't plan on prosthelytizing to you, so please respect us (and our faith) by returning such in kind. More of this type of action, Link_of_Hylia, will result in banning from the JGG. This is your first and last warning. Thanks for playing. Have a nice day.We sing this great part of liturgy at all of our services called The Shema. It comes from Deuteronomy where we say "Hear O Yisrael. The Lord our God, the Lord is One. Shema Yisrael, Adonai elohenui Adonai Echad. Then it comes in with the second part. Baruch shem kvod malchuto l'olam vaed. Blessed be his glorious kingdom forever and ever! Shema! Listen! Oh Israel! The Lord is OUR GOD. The Lord is One. BLESSED be HIS glorious kingdom FOREVER. It's not this beautiful little song or thing we say each week to remember who we are or what our religion means. It's there to remember God. The Lord Your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt. Not Moshe, not Aaron, not Yitzhak or the descendants of Yoseph. It's a prayer to remember your God. And you shall love Adonai your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might. And these words which I command you on this day shall be upon your heart. There is no separation of faith in these words. That's my Jewish identity. To love Adonai with all my soul and all my might. His words are on my heart and I want to be blessed in fellowship of those words given to us by God with the JGG. Yeshua's interpretations is as some would say Rabbi Hillel's interpretations of the Tenach in the Talmud are. The difference is that I believe in Yeshua's interpretations. I don't mean to come here and spout off about how he saved me but I am not ignorant to my faith and certainly am only here to discover more about my God and my Jewish family that has been obliterated. I am one of less than ten left... technically I'm the last generation left who believes and observes the Tenach, celebrates the passover and other Holy Days. I represent an entire tribe of Levites that came from Russia right before the Holocaust and I'm descended from the money that they gathered to send one little boy (my grandfather) across the Atlantic Ocean. The rest of my family either was killed by Hitler or Stalin. I believe in Yeshua but I also believe in Yahweh and the Tenach. I'd love to contribute and be apart of the discussion here. I am not ashamed of the Gospel. I am not ashamed to be Jewish. I am not ashamed to be Messianic. I am not ashamed of the Lord my God.
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Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 10:25 am
I am very sad to have to have to make this post. Link_of_Hylia was given a reminder of the JGG rules and a warning that continuing to flaunt them would result in being removed from the JGG. He ignored the rules and the warning, and has been banned from the JGG.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 5:54 pm
I think he should be allowed back in.
He's a little indoctrinated, sure, but he isn't flaming. He only reacted properly when you warned him.
I dunno. Does DP agree?
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Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 1:43 pm
I want Link back.
And not just because he'll see this. ninja
But Divash is nothing if not someone who knows her laws. In halacha she's proven that a lot. She even brought in quotes from the Guild's main page.
It's up to DP on whether or not to pardon him now.
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darkphoenix1247 Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 2:54 pm
Sorry guys, but I'm with Divash on this one (and she holds equal authority as me, by the way.) For one, on the guild homepage, we unapologetically state what Divash already quoted, "We do not, however, like "Jews for Jesus."(If you are a J4J and really want to join, you'd better prove damn well that you will not simply barge in and holler about Yeshua this and Yeshua that. We would accept you for the Jewish cultural aspects you may share, not because we want to hear about your findings through Jesus.)"
I personally hold nothing against Link (and if you're reading this, Link, read this part, too.) I don't mind him contributing to most all discussions that he wishes (except this one for obvious reasons, or anything that involves talking about Jesus as the messiah.) Part of the reason we put that quote on the homepage is because I've had about 8 pms of people who were very offended by J4Js and their views (we had a major issue with an earlier member who kept trying to convert people or bringing up Jesus. Over. And over. And over again.) Many of them felt we shouldn't let them into the guild in the first place. While I think that's being a bit overdramatic, I do respect their opinions and try to keep the peace as best I can. I don't think it's much to ask to simply request that Jesus should be kept out of discussions- besides that, he also stated his opinion excessively to the point of repetitiveness.
Plus, he was already warned before being banned, which was perfectly fair. (And banning, as far as I know, is only temporary of like 2 weeks, I think?)
And Link, if Gentiles wanted to know the Jewish G-d, they'd convert to Judaism and wouldn't be Gentiles..
Behatz, I would hardly call his a "proper" reaction- sorry. xp
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Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 5:21 pm
Sorry, English use of the word "proper". What that sentence meant was: Behatz He only reacted stupidly and angrily when you warned him.
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darkphoenix1247 Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 9:41 pm
Behatzlacha-S Sorry, English use of the word "proper". What that sentence meant was: Behatz He only reacted stupidly and angrily when you warned him. I love English, but I have absolutely no idea on British vernacular. My bad. How does "proper" have negative connotations?
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Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 5:58 pm
Basically, if you're lower middle- or lower-class, the word "proper" can mean "serious" or "seriously" - e.g. That game is proper cool.
Or it can mean "severely", or out of line - e.g. He only reacted properly when you warned him.
If you use proper to mean "the right thing", then you're middle class. xd
Of course, Britain's class system is much more evident than America's.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 7:48 pm
Darkphoenix1247's guild, Darkphoenix1247's rules. I happily abide by any decision she makes, whether the banning is reversed, defined as a two-week absence only, or extended indefinitely. But as co-captain, yes, I did act with DP's brachah and authority according to the stipulated rules of the guild.
Link's a nice fellow, and I suspect that in most subjects he can discuss and debate according to the common dictates of courtesy as well as the understood rules of whatever forum in which he finds himself, but on this subject it seems he couldn't. If DP admits him back to the guild, I will be happy to see him, and will trust that he's agreed to abide by guild etiquette in future. It will be good to have him back.
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Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 4:17 pm
I hate to bump up a topic like this, but I can't believe everyone missed the obvious insincerity of any Jew who'd worship Jesus. How could a Jew POSSIBLY worship another JEW~? That just doesn't make sense. I could imagine an elderly Lubavitcher playing n the park with his dachshund before I can picture a Jew worshiping another Jew. A goy, maybe, but another Jew~? Honestly. . .
Edit:
For those of you who might take this post the wrong way, I don't mean to be drawing antisemitic stereotypes into the picture. Rather, the consequences of antisemitism. Jews have become a very tightly-knit family over the course of the diaspora and all the discrimination. As a halber yid, who'd be called Jewish by one Rabbi but not another, I've observed this very closely.
What makes Jews such a closely-knit family~? Why, antisemitism, of course. My father seemed to hate his own yiddishkayt until recently, when a sizable part of the local community started hating it for him. Now he's about ready to find a minyan, I swear. After getting a taste of that bigotry, even I started learning enough of the "mame loshn" to translate some old songs.
What's this have to do with my somewhat inflammatory statement~? Why, if Jesus descended from the sky tomorrow, every Jew in the world and a few of us half Jews would want to be the first to yell, "Hey, boytchik, you haven't donated to the A.D.L. since the bronze age". We've stuck together this long, from slavery in Egypt to the conflict in Palestine, simply because that's how folks survive hard times. You don't build such a strong community by taking any individual member therein too seriously. Even di rebbeleh is another member of the community and that can be proven by looking at Jewish folklore.
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Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:42 pm
Might I note that Link was wrong on many of his points as well
1. Any one can convert...I myself converted when I was 12 or 13.
2. we do not say the Shema weekly, If I am correct you say it at least two times a day.
3 It is said that Baruch shem kvod malchuto l'olam vaed is what Moshe heard the angels saying to Hashem while he was on Har Sinai.
And on a note to Dr. Awkward, If you give My family many more years then you may see an elderly Chabad Lubavitcher playing with a pitbull.
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:06 pm
Divash I am very sad to have to have to make this post. Link_of_Hylia was given a reminder of the JGG rules and a warning that continuing to flaunt them would result in being removed from the JGG. He ignored the rules and the warning, and has been banned from the JGG. I was originally interested a few days ago in re-exploring what the JGG viewed of the torah... which led me to this discussion. I was just wondering if Divash would provide further clarification on the violation the messianic jewish person made in this situation. It puzzles me why he'd be removed when he never made a claim or flaunt of Jesus, yet merely stated his religion.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:20 pm
iJew_Intelligence101, this very thread contains the answers to your questions. I'm not going over it again. This thread was dead a year ago, didn't need to be excavated, and needs now to be reburied. Thanks.
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