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 Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:05 am
MegaTherion777 My Hollow MegaTherion777 My Hollow lotusvoid lol. I do not of course, but as a means to the end of an ontology focus, many many bio.s were necessary to even comprehend the chaos theory and ontology focuses. My mom almost became a marine Biologist and she has actively worked in apologetics organizations for more than a decade. They study all of the theories actively. The household I grew up in, knows these things. lo-lo, ad hominem attacks are not necessary. don't just assume you're more knowledgeable, and even if you are, don't say stupid things like you're arguments would be meaningless to us. even if we haven't studied it as much as you, we are all pretty intelligent and will most likely understand your arguments. and even if we don't you shouldn't be condescending and assume that we won't understand it. furthermore, hollow has stated before that her mother knows this stuff, so you should have given at least her the benefit of the doubt when it comes to being able to understand or talk with someone who understands your argument. Thanks, Mike. I didn't want to start anything out of it, I was just saying I know more than she's giving me credit for due to my up-bringing. yeah, i've been pondering how to word that tactfully since i saw it earlier this afternoon. i may be skeptical of both science and religion, but that doesnt mean i dont have a good understanding of them both Indeed.
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:14 am
I'm kind of representing scientific world in this guild so... I guess I should speak up here.
First of all, let me place myself. I do agree with Mega that evolution and intelligent design could go together. I do not believe intelligent design is a fact, for several reasons which are not important in this discussion. Nevertheless, I'm not denying this could be true - the thing is to prove it.
Now, we will never ever be able to prove 100% any of them. Unless intelligent design is a fact and the one that designed this world speaks up and shows us how they did design this world. As for proving evolution - basically speaking, our lives are too short to prove evolution is a fact.
If I were to choose how this world became what it is now, I would deny any possibility of teaching intelligent design in science, biology or whatever other "scientific-based" class. It does not belong there. Intelligent design is NOT a scientific theory. It's religion-driven and as such it belongs to either outside PUBLIC school, or to a specific class within a school, such as religion. I'm not denying anybody access to this knowledge, but access it at the place where it belongs.
Why doesn't it belong to the science class? While many of you may argue this, intelligent design IS religion-driven. And now, put a kid that a) doesn't believe in any gods, b) has atheist parents who don't want the kid to be influenced by religion, into a class where religion stuff is taught. I'm sorry, I don't want it. And why is it religion-driven? Because it concerns supernatural powers humans don't comprehend. And what is more important - part of the community supporting intelligent design, tries to impose completely false facts (as far as I udnerstand) that the world is a few (perhaps 12 as it was said before) thousand years old. And THIS is dangerous.
Darwin's theory has flaws? Perhaps. But he created this theory in 19th century with the knowledge and information he could have had then. It would be different now, and in fact it is constantly modified to be closer to the facts (which we will never know, remember).
@Trevor: the fact that something dated 500 milion years was found somewhere, doesn't prove there was nothing older than this. Until we dig every inch of the ground on this planet, we will know nothing for sure. And even then we are not sure to find a piece of every species that ever lived on this planet - we're talking bioorganic substances which require special environment to be preserved. And... this very moment cannot prove intelligent design either. If all animals were created on the same day... sponges and jellyfish are animals too (of course, day taken as a metaphore of a much longer period as understood by humans).
To sum things up, evolution today at least seems closer to the truth. What is more, it doesn't deny intelligent design - as Mega already pointed this out, evolution may have been designed too. But until there is more scientific proof the intelligent design theory may be actually true - it doesn't belong to science class, it belongs only to religion class (or to sole decision of an individual teacher/school whether to tell about it in a class or not, just like Mega could hear it - but that really requires a GOOD teacher to tell about it).
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:33 am
my thoughts pretty much align with kas's post.
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:04 am
My Hollow MegaTherion777 My Hollow MegaTherion777 My Hollow lotusvoid lol. I do not of course, but as a means to the end of an ontology focus, many many bio.s were necessary to even comprehend the chaos theory and ontology focuses. My mom almost became a marine Biologist and she has actively worked in apologetics organizations for more than a decade. They study all of the theories actively. The household I grew up in, knows these things. lo-lo, ad hominem attacks are not necessary. don't just assume you're more knowledgeable, and even if you are, don't say stupid things like you're arguments would be meaningless to us. even if we haven't studied it as much as you, we are all pretty intelligent and will most likely understand your arguments. and even if we don't you shouldn't be condescending and assume that we won't understand it. furthermore, hollow has stated before that her mother knows this stuff, so you should have given at least her the benefit of the doubt when it comes to being able to understand or talk with someone who understands your argument. Thanks, Mike. I didn't want to start anything out of it, I was just saying I know more than she's giving me credit for due to my up-bringing. yeah, i've been pondering how to word that tactfully since i saw it earlier this afternoon. i may be skeptical of both science and religion, but that doesnt mean i dont have a good understanding of them both Indeed. I do not believe that my post was taken the way it was meant, which is mainly my fault. I was not trying to attack or insult anyone. so I am sorry that I did. I did not however, have any clue as to the profession of hollows mother.
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:55 am
kacisko I'm kind of representing scientific world in this guild so... I guess I should speak up here. First of all, let me place myself. I do agree with Mega that evolution and intelligent design could go together. I do not believe intelligent design is a fact, for several reasons which are not important in this discussion. Nevertheless, I'm not denying this could be true - the thing is to prove it. Now, we will never ever be able to prove 100% any of them. Unless intelligent design is a fact and the one that designed this world speaks up and shows us how they did design this world. As for proving evolution - basically speaking, our lives are too short to prove evolution is a fact. If I were to choose how this world became what it is now, I would deny any possibility of teaching intelligent design in science, biology or whatever other "scientific-based" class. It does not belong there. Intelligent design is NOT a scientific theory. It's religion-driven and as such it belongs to either outside PUBLIC school, or to a specific class within a school, such as religion. I'm not denying anybody access to this knowledge, but access it at the place where it belongs. Why doesn't it belong to the science class? While many of you may argue this, intelligent design IS religion-driven. And now, put a kid that a) doesn't believe in any gods, b) has atheist parents who don't want the kid to be influenced by religion, into a class where religion stuff is taught. I'm sorry, I don't want it. And why is it religion-driven? Because it concerns supernatural powers humans don't comprehend. And what is more important - part of the community supporting intelligent design, tries to impose completely false facts (as far as I udnerstand) that the world is a few (perhaps 12 as it was said before) thousand years old. And THIS is dangerous. Darwin's theory has flaws? Perhaps. But he created this theory in 19th century with the knowledge and information he could have had then. It would be different now, and in fact it is constantly modified to be closer to the facts (which we will never know, remember). @Trevor: the fact that something dated 500 milion years was found somewhere, doesn't prove there was nothing older than this. Until we dig every inch of the ground on this planet, we will know nothing for sure. And even then we are not sure to find a piece of every species that ever lived on this planet - we're talking bioorganic substances which require special environment to be preserved. And... this very moment cannot prove intelligent design either. If all animals were created on the same day... sponges and jellyfish are animals too (of course, day taken as a metaphore of a much longer period as understood by humans). To sum things up, evolution today at least seems closer to the truth. What is more, it doesn't deny intelligent design - as Mega already pointed this out, evolution may have been designed too. But until there is more scientific proof the intelligent design theory may be actually true - it doesn't belong to science class, it belongs only to religion class (or to sole decision of an individual teacher/school whether to tell about it in a class or not, just like Mega could hear it - but that really requires a GOOD teacher to tell about it). how come the non-native speaker expresses my opinion better than i can? this isnt fair gonk lol *applauds kas* lo-lo - yeah be careful about wording, because i feel that your statement definitely did imply some things that you may not have meant. i felt i should warn before this thread degenerated into nothing but personal attacks.
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:52 pm
kacisko I'm kind of representing scientific world in this guild so... I guess I should speak up here. First of all, let me place myself. I do agree with Mega that evolution and intelligent design could go together. I do not believe intelligent design is a fact, for several reasons which are not important in this discussion. Nevertheless, I'm not denying this could be true - the thing is to prove it. Now, we will never ever be able to prove 100% any of them. Unless intelligent design is a fact and the one that designed this world speaks up and shows us how they did design this world. As for proving evolution - basically speaking, our lives are too short to prove evolution is a fact. If I were to choose how this world became what it is now, I would deny any possibility of teaching intelligent design in science, biology or whatever other "scientific-based" class. It does not belong there. Intelligent design is NOT a scientific theory. It's religion-driven and as such it belongs to either outside PUBLIC school, or to a specific class within a school, such as religion. I'm not denying anybody access to this knowledge, but access it at the place where it belongs. Why doesn't it belong to the science class? While many of you may argue this, intelligent design IS religion-driven. And now, put a kid that a) doesn't believe in any gods, b) has atheist parents who don't want the kid to be influenced by religion, into a class where religion stuff is taught. I'm sorry, I don't want it. And why is it religion-driven? Because it concerns supernatural powers humans don't comprehend. And what is more important - part of the community supporting intelligent design, tries to impose completely false facts (as far as I udnerstand) that the world is a few (perhaps 12 as it was said before) thousand years old. And THIS is dangerous. Darwin's theory has flaws? Perhaps. But he created this theory in 19th century with the knowledge and information he could have had then. It would be different now, and in fact it is constantly modified to be closer to the facts (which we will never know, remember). @Trevor: the fact that something dated 500 milion years was found somewhere, doesn't prove there was nothing older than this. Until we dig every inch of the ground on this planet, we will know nothing for sure. And even then we are not sure to find a piece of every species that ever lived on this planet - we're talking bioorganic substances which require special environment to be preserved. And... this very moment cannot prove intelligent design either. If all animals were created on the same day... sponges and jellyfish are animals too (of course, day taken as a metaphore of a much longer period as understood by humans). To sum things up, evolution today at least seems closer to the truth. What is more, it doesn't deny intelligent design - as Mega already pointed this out, evolution may have been designed too. But until there is more scientific proof the intelligent design theory may be actually true - it doesn't belong to science class, it belongs only to religion class (or to sole decision of an individual teacher/school whether to tell about it in a class or not, just like Mega could hear it - but that really requires a GOOD teacher to tell about it). This is an explanation of how the world came to be. So this explanation shouldn't be taught because it "offends" some people? Evolution is NOT taught as a thoery, it's taught as a fact. I am not saying that schools should teach intelligant design as a fact, I am more suggesting that they teach it as an alternative explanation to the creation of the world. I am not trying to convert the world or push anything on others. All I'm saying is this: evolution has flaws in it, but it's being taught as the only way. There are other options, whether you, personally, consider them ONLY religion based is not a legitimate case. The fact is, it offers an alternative explanation to the one being give (evolution). It's a theory, a scientific thoery, whether God is in it or He isn't. There are Christians who believe that God used evolution to create the world, but I am not one of them. There are just too many flaws and too many untied explanations.
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:21 pm
GOD DAMN ... too much letters burning_eyes
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:58 pm
I'm sorry, I just don't see how it is science at all. It is about as scientific as the Mayan creation myths to me!
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:05 pm
The War Starter I'm sorry, I just don't see how it is science at all. It is about as scientific as the Mayan creation myths to me! hey whats with mayans ? ( i am from México) ... jk i dont even know is there were 12 or 10 suns in the mayan mythology
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:58 pm
I believe many of the Christians deny evolution and intelligent design could go together because, in the bible, it says god created Adam in his image, and they don't wanna believe that god is an ape or a single celled organism... so that dismisses the theory of evolution being compatible with intelligent design for them.
And until a time machine is invented or the second coming happens neither of these can be proven.
The only "proof" that Intelligent design exists is what is written in the bible. There are certain things (like the finches) that "suggest" that evolution and natural selection could be plausible and like what was said earlier entire fields of science have been based on evolution.
Personally if you want to learn about intelligent design, you should go to church (because every religion has its own take on it) and evolution should be the only theory taught in school, if you dont like evolution thats too bad, just memorize it pass the test and then beleive what you want to after.
-------EDIT------
I now realize some of what i said doesnt make sense, since god could have created Adam in his image using evolution...
lol now im arguing with my self...
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:15 pm
BloodMagian I believe many of the Christians deny evolution and intelligent design could go together because, in the bible, it says god created Adam in his image, and they don't wanna believe that god is an ape or a single celled organism... so that dismisses the theory of evolution being compatible with intelligent design for them. And until a time machine is invented or the second coming happens neither of these can be proven. The only "proof" that Intelligent design exists is what is written in the bible. There are certain things (like the finches) that "suggest" that evolution and natural selection could be plausible and like what was said earlier entire fields of science have been based on evolution. Personally if you want to learn about intelligent design, you should go to church (because every religion has its own take on it) and evolution should be the only theory taught in school, if you dont like evolution thats too bad, just memorize it pass the test and then beleive what you want to after. -------EDIT------ I now realize some of what i said doesnt make sense, since god could have created Adam in his image using evolution... lol now im arguing with my self... Why?
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:23 pm
BloodMagian I believe many of the Christians deny evolution and intelligent design could go together because, in the bible, it says god created Adam in his image, and they don't wanna believe that god is an ape or a single celled organism... so that dismisses the theory of evolution being compatible with intelligent design for them. And until a time machine is invented or the second coming happens neither of these can be proven. The only "proof" that Intelligent design exists is what is written in the bible. There are certain things (like the finches) that "suggest" that evolution and natural selection could be plausible and like what was said earlier entire fields of science have been based on evolution. Personally if you want to learn about intelligent design, you should go to church (because every religion has its own take on it) and evolution should be the only theory taught in school, if you dont like evolution thats too bad, just memorize it pass the test and then beleive what you want to after. -------EDIT------ I now realize some of what i said doesnt make sense, since god could have created Adam in his image using evolution... lol now im arguing with my self... LOL it is a sticky argument. I do not believe that intelligent design is what actually happened, but because of the validity of it in the eyes of so many, and because it is wrong to completely ignore and devalue the thoughts of those who have different faith based beliefs , I believe it should still be taught, for those who want to learn, as long as it is taught along with evolution, and is strictly voluntary.
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:25 pm
Because there is church to teach you intelligent design. Theres no real reason to teach it in school, we all learned about it just fine outside of school didnt we?
Evolution is much more complex, we cant learn evolution in a paragraph.
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:29 pm
BloodMagian Because there is church to teach you intelligent design. Theres no real reason to teach it in school, we all learned about it just fine outside of school didnt we? Evolution is much more complex, we cant learn evolution in a paragraph. LOL, I very much beg to differ. Very, very much.
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:57 pm
My Hollow BloodMagian Because there is church to teach you intelligent design. Theres no real reason to teach it in school, we all learned about it just fine outside of school didnt we? Evolution is much more complex, we cant learn evolution in a paragraph. LOL, I very much beg to differ. Very, very much. you believe that the fundamental rules and history of evolution can actually be taught in a paragraph? confused
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