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Eloquent Conversationalist
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 Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:18 pm
LordNeuf 4va LordNeuf So... does that make us a congregation? Hey, I like that idea. we couldnt share challah or do shabbat services together, but we could do torah study on the sabbath/saturday morning. razz It could happen, we keep threatening to meet up one day. Yeah, I've been posting about that in the Jewish Gaians Guild Gathering thread. I've been hoping folks would read those posts and answer them, so I know they're reading. *pointed looks here and there* As I said there, I can't play host (having people actually IN my home). Also, I'm now working outside the home, so I can't afford to take a week off to play tour guide. sad
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:22 am
I have some advice for you. Are you in America at the moment? I find that in western countries the rabbis and the members of the synogogue are much more understanding. If after all people have wrote with advice for getting in to a shul doesn't work, simply join a Reform or Liberal shul. I'm pretty sure that in my shul, if your FRIEND is jewish, you can join the shul! Give it a go and I'm sure you'll be accepted.
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:28 am
LordNeuf (Throws his Yamakule into the ring) Hi, I'm Neuf. I'm one of the few jews who regards himself as a soloist. I have not found a congregation that suits me, so... I don't go to temple. My synagogue is a small corner of my bedroom with my late grandfather's 6 point menorah from Israel, an old metal challah plate from my late grandmother, a set of shabbas candle sticks from my other late grandmother, A Talis and Tefillin from my parents, my other late grandfather's all hebrew prayer book, a Tanakh from my family for my bar mitzvah and my own modern siddur for the hebrew impared and a havdallah set that I procured. As well as 2 kaddish cups (one glass, one stainless) that my brother and sister got for me, and my ultra small compact shabbat candle holders that I take camping. That's all. Things like Seder Plates, Haggadas, Chanukah Menorahs (Chanukias), and other such things belong to my family, but what is on my altar (which technically is a buffet table that my grandfather built) I claim as my birthright and use in medatative solace. I may be considered the odd duck, but I have a very interesting way of looking at Judaism as a personal religion. So don't worry about talkin to a rabbi, what temple to belong too, or wondering if your a reformed or an orthodox or a conservodox or a reconservodox or whatever. You have to be comfortable with Judaism as a self identity, or else you might become overwhelmed by the culture shock of it all. As for the whole gay lesbian thing, don't worry about that. I find most jews, including myself, understand that everyone has their own way of going about enjoying life. That and Judaism has a tenant of "Healing the World" which includes social issues and equality among people (at least in my humble opinion it does) And as history has shown, when the powers that be start focusing hatred upon the Jewish People, homosexuals aren't too far behind on the hit list. So... any questions? How does this work? I thought you needed a Minyan to worship??? (Sorry for the spelling if I got it wrong. I speak Yiddish and Hebrew, but I never write them down in English letters). I thought, no matter which shul you belong to, you need at least 10 people who are children of the commandments to worship...
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:04 pm
yossel_ochichu LordNeuf (Throws his Yamakule into the ring) Hi, I'm Neuf. I'm one of the few jews who regards himself as a soloist. I have not found a congregation that suits me, so... I don't go to temple. My synagogue is a small corner of my bedroom with my late grandfather's 6 point menorah from Israel, an old metal challah plate from my late grandmother, a set of shabbas candle sticks from my other late grandmother, A Talis and Tefillin from my parents, my other late grandfather's all hebrew prayer book, a Tanakh from my family for my bar mitzvah and my own modern siddur for the hebrew impared and a havdallah set that I procured. As well as 2 kaddish cups (one glass, one stainless) that my brother and sister got for me, and my ultra small compact shabbat candle holders that I take camping. That's all. Things like Seder Plates, Haggadas, Chanukah Menorahs (Chanukias), and other such things belong to my family, but what is on my altar (which technically is a buffet table that my grandfather built) I claim as my birthright and use in medatative solace. I may be considered the odd duck, but I have a very interesting way of looking at Judaism as a personal religion. So don't worry about talkin to a rabbi, what temple to belong too, or wondering if your a reformed or an orthodox or a conservodox or a reconservodox or whatever. You have to be comfortable with Judaism as a self identity, or else you might become overwhelmed by the culture shock of it all. As for the whole gay lesbian thing, don't worry about that. I find most jews, including myself, understand that everyone has their own way of going about enjoying life. That and Judaism has a tenant of "Healing the World" which includes social issues and equality among people (at least in my humble opinion it does) And as history has shown, when the powers that be start focusing hatred upon the Jewish People, homosexuals aren't too far behind on the hit list. So... any questions? How does this work? I thought you needed a Minyan to worship??? (Sorry for the spelling if I got it wrong. I speak Yiddish and Hebrew, but I never write them down in English letters). I thought, no matter which shul you belong to, you need at least 10 people who are children of the commandments to worship...
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:41 pm
NanaoThrowsPetals yossel_ochichu LordNeuf (Throws his Yamakule into the ring) Hi, I'm Neuf. I'm one of the few jews who regards himself as a soloist. I have not found a congregation that suits me, so... I don't go to temple. My synagogue is a small corner of my bedroom with my late grandfather's 6 point menorah from Israel, an old metal challah plate from my late grandmother, a set of shabbas candle sticks from my other late grandmother, A Talis and Tefillin from my parents, my other late grandfather's all hebrew prayer book, a Tanakh from my family for my bar mitzvah and my own modern siddur for the hebrew impared and a havdallah set that I procured. As well as 2 kaddish cups (one glass, one stainless) that my brother and sister got for me, and my ultra small compact shabbat candle holders that I take camping. That's all. Things like Seder Plates, Haggadas, Chanukah Menorahs (Chanukias), and other such things belong to my family, but what is on my altar (which technically is a buffet table that my grandfather built) I claim as my birthright and use in medatative solace. I may be considered the odd duck, but I have a very interesting way of looking at Judaism as a personal religion. So don't worry about talkin to a rabbi, what temple to belong too, or wondering if your a reformed or an orthodox or a conservodox or a reconservodox or whatever. You have to be comfortable with Judaism as a self identity, or else you might become overwhelmed by the culture shock of it all. As for the whole gay lesbian thing, don't worry about that. I find most jews, including myself, understand that everyone has their own way of going about enjoying life. That and Judaism has a tenant of "Healing the World" which includes social issues and equality among people (at least in my humble opinion it does) And as history has shown, when the powers that be start focusing hatred upon the Jewish People, homosexuals aren't too far behind on the hit list. So... any questions? How does this work? I thought you needed a Minyan to worship??? (Sorry for the spelling if I got it wrong. I speak Yiddish and Hebrew, but I never write them down in English letters). I thought, no matter which shul you belong to, you need at least 10 people who are children of the commandments to worship... Yeah. 10 people is preferrable, but not a requirement, except for certain parts of the prayer.
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Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:52 am
yossel_ochichu How does this work? I thought you needed a Minyan to worship??? (Sorry for the spelling if I got it wrong. I speak Yiddish and Hebrew, but I never write them down in English letters). I thought, no matter which shul you belong to, you need at least 10 people who are children of the commandments to worship... You need ten adult Jewish males (at least; plus women, non-adults, and non-Jews if they choose to be there) in order to say certain prayers. These prayers are called "d'varim sh-bik'dushah" or "things of holiness," and they include the Kaddish (there are several prayers called Kaddish, and each one requires a minyan), the Bar'chu ("Bless Ye," the call for community worship), the Kedushah ("Holiness," in which specifically a 'host' of worshippers are mentioned), and a sparse handful of others. Also you need the minyan for a Torah reading service. But for non-communal 'fixed' prayers from the prayer book, or spontaneous prayers from the heart, you don't need anyone but yourself. Still, praying alone all the time can get very lonely. The worst time to be a solitary Jew is when in mourning. Since it's forbidden to say the Kaddish Yatom (Mourner's Kaddish) without a minyan, one can't mourn properly without a minyan, and therefore the mourning is even harder than it would normally be with such a loss. Even if you have a community near to hand, if you don't spend time getting to know them, there'll be a bit of a distance when you go to a synagogue to say the Kaddish. They'll sympathize, but they won't already be known to you, so you'll be mourning among strangers instead of friends. Honestly, if there's a Jewish community nearby, I really encourage becoming a part of it. Even just going in once a month will help.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:15 pm
To Mynian, or not to Mynian: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to worship
The divine as a singular force,
Or to take communion against a sea of yamakules...
Or... something like that.
Yes a mynian is one of the essential parts of being part of a Jewish Community. However due to several issues in my past, (look for that depressing thread in the community forum,) I feel emptier and more distant from HASHEM being in a Mynian, than being alone. Probably because as an individual, I don't have anyone implying what is proper and what is forbidden and I can express myself without, for lack of a better term, fear of being different in my thoughts on HASHEM and what it is to be and pray as a Jew.
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Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:08 pm
I have to, again, go with Neuf. I've felt more of a connection to G-d when alone than when in the presence of others. I tend to feel most connected when outside, alone in nature. When other people are around, the feeling I have is shattered. I feel like some normal kid paying lip service to something I don't actually feel. Out on my own, though, it's as though it's just me and G-d, with perfectly open lines of communication.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:47 am
Neuf and DD:
Both of you may feel a lot more comfortable in a Reform setting than in an Orthodox or Conservative setting. But keep in mind, even when someone does tell you "This is forbidden," or "this is required," they're not telling you to go out and do the required thing, or to not do the forbidden thing. They're only giving you information. What you do with that information is up to you. Every Jew has a choice.
It's like being in any other nation. Let's say you live in the USA. The USA has laws. There are also general customs which are followed so strictly that they seem to have the force of law behind them. (Like: in a city bus, with only one other person on it, do you sit by that person? Not if you've got a single brain cell in your head. You sit with at least one space between the two of you, preferably more.) Does every American citizen follow those laws and customs? Does every non-citizen resident of the US follow these laws and customs? Does every visitor to the US follow these laws and customs? Of course not. Otherwise, the US wouldn't need any police officers, military personnel, lawyer, judge, parole officer, jail warden, or drug rehab counselor. It wouldn't need courts, prisons, rehab centers. There are consequences to disobeying US laws while on US soil. There are also social consequences, of course. If you're a law breaker, and law-abiding citizens know it, they're going to look down on you.
(Israel, the country, isn't synonymous with Judaism. They have police and the other authorities to deal with those who break their secular laws. We're talking about religious law here, so this doesn't apply to the following.)
Judaism is also a nation, albeit a nation without borders, police, or any of the other professionals and institutions that are set up to deal with law breakers. There's only one Giver of law: Hashem. There's only one source for us to know the law: Torah (which, in its broadest sense, includes the entire Hebrew Bible, the Talmud, a few other select books of Jewish law such as the Shulchan Aruch, and the body of Responsa that have come down through the ages). And there's only one type of person who is there to interpret, disseminate, share, and remind people of the law: the rabbi. Rabbis are there to tell you what the law is. They are not there to force you to observe it.
True, those who do obey the law also feel strongly that others should also obey it, for the sake of the nation and of the individual. Some will look down on those who don't obey the law. Some will even look down on those who obey the differently from the way they, themselves, obey it. But the majority who tell you, "This is what the law is," are only trying to give you information. This is what the law is. It's up to you, whether you want to observe that law or not. If you observe it, it's up to you whether you want to observe it the same way I do, or the same way that guy over there does it, or in your own way that neither I nor that guy have come up with.
Nevertheless, the Reform do seem to be a bit more accepting of those who have decided they want to be connected to the nation of Judaism, but not yet decided which of its laws, if any, they want to observe. You may begin to feel at home there, especially if you give it about two months of going there every other week, and get familiar with the services.
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Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:04 am
Been there done that.
In the past few years I've gone to a reformed synagogue, being my parents temple and closet to my house, which is not to say, "in walking distance."
I spent Rosh Hashonna at a Reformed temple. Talk about lip service, seemed everyone there was just there because it was proper, not because they wanted to commune with HASHEM. After the main Torah portions, half the place cleared out because they fulfilled the bare minimum requirements of Rosh Hashonna. Only about a quarter of the congregations showed up for the evening service. On shabbat and other holidays, such as Sukkot, and Simcha Tora, I think maybe 20 people were their, mostly children, and grandparents. On Shabbat, it's basically the same 20 people, but not as many children. Those who were called to the Bima to recite responsive prayers read them with about as much conviction, as a 8th grader reciting an oral report on the development of agriculture in the mid-west. Same with the congregation.
They have a nice choir, with musical instruments and sing the prayers wonderfully, but... only on High Holidays.
Every time I went there, I left only feeling more distant from HASHEM and the community as a whole.
That and I don't like having to pay, 250 bucks a year, plus 60 dollars for each high holidays and passover Seder.
The best time I was with a congregation was a Modern Orthodox Schul 2 towns away, I had a great time for Rosh Hashonna and Yom Kippor, felt it had a lot more meaning. However, that congregation folded due to lack of funds and the Rabbi moved to Israel.
And now a song...
Well I walked into my House of G0D
Congregation on the nod
Just chosen folks, doin their weekly thing.
"Hear O Israel" Yes indeed
My book was backward, couldn't read.
But I gotta good rise when I heard the rabbi say..
"Baruch ata AD0NAI...
What the hell you doin back there boy?
We reserve the right to refuse services to you.
Your friends are all on welfare, and ya call yourself a Jew?
You need your ticket and your tie, to zip your prayers on through
We reserve the right to refuse services... unto you."
I really shouldn't have that song playing in my head after I visit a temple, should I?
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Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:08 am
Divash,
I have no problem with people following the rules. I dislike organized religion in general, for the same reason that I dislike practicing with a congregation; it becomes more about connecting to the other people, not the Divine. I felt this was the same when I was agnostic, Buddhist, and Asatru.
Along this vein, I feel that organized religion has its priorities wrong. Most focus on following the rules and not on spirituality. Judaism, I think, is not as bad about this since we have no central authority. Nevertheless it feels stifling when the connection to G-d is overshadowed by "do this, don't do that" and people looking down their noses. It also feels hollow when in a group that implies that the rules do not matter all too much.
The way I see it, G-d gave us His commandments, laying them down as the path to a good life. They are not the only path to a good life, but they're the only sure-fire way that we know of. The things forbidden are those that lead to temptation and decadence, the things encouraged are those that strengthen the soul for the tasks it has been sent to accomplish.
I know my task, and I've prepared myself for it. Mine is a path that millions will walk by my side, but it's not one that requires organized religion. I am comfortable knowing that I am a spiritual person, that I can add the laws into my life as I'm able to, and that G-d will vindicate my actions. I have not yet found a Rabbi who understands (and yes, I have spoken to, and work with, a Reform Rabbi) my intentions. When last I explained myself, I got a chuckle and was dismissed out of hand.
That is the sort of thinking that has turned me from organized religion; the thinking that there is a limit on what we can do. The thinking that only the elders can achieve things. The thinking that those who are not the same cannot be blessed by G-d. I'm well aware that this isn't the mode of thinking for all followers and Rabbis, but it has been for those I met. As such, I will continue on my path alone until the time comes to gather my brethren to me.
[/rant-speech]
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Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:19 am
I believe what were trying to say is...
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:48 am
No one's trying to make you drink the water (or the Kool-Aid... y'all may be too young for that joke), or even lead you to the water.
If you're thirsty, you'll go to the water on your own, as long as you know where it is.
That said, if Reform isn't for you, before dismissing all of organized Judaism, you might want to try Lubavitch or Breslover Chassidism. They're both very good at welcoming in Jews who feel disconnected from their fellow Jews, from the mitzvot, and/or from Hashem. The connection to Hashem that you're looking for, DD, might be easier to see in people who go to shul more than once or twice a year. Reform shuls are a bit more accepting of some things; Chassidism are a bit more concerned with EVERYDAY Jewish living and not only in Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, and Pesach Judaism. They also have it as their mission to make sure every Jew is equipped with the knowledge and support they need in order to live a Jewish life, an observant life, if they choose to do so. They are very good at embracing.
Also, I don't know if you tried talking to the staff of the previous synagogues you tried to visit. Yes, there are dues to pay, for all who can afford them. That's how the building functions all year; that's how they offer classes for free (plus the cost of your books, of course); that's how they pay the living wages of their clergy, office staff, and maintenance staff; that's how they can afford to keep the prayer books well stocked; that's how they afford to let any member have their wedding at the synagogue even if they can't pay for it. But if you want to be a member, and you can't pay, you can always speak to the rabbi or to someone in the office who deals with the shul finances, and they will ALWAYS cut you a deal. Either lower dues, or no dues at all. They don't want a Jew to feel left out. I know this because I took advantage of it for a year when I was out of work and the household finances were very tight.
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Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:01 pm
So, since I am converting do you think that I should check out all the aspects of Judaism?
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Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:46 am
In media res I am sincerely wishing to convert to Judaism, however, I am nervous and incredibly scared to talk with a rabbi. This is not on whim, I have been thinking about this almost all my life. As a little girl in Catholic school I rejected Catholic doctrine and had always wondered why I could not celebrate Passover. I thank you for accepting me into this guild and I do hope you all have some advice for me =]. I am extremely wary because of the horror stories I have heard about Orthodoxy never Ger as real Jews =[. Don't let all the Orthodox stuff scare you. Go ahead and convert. You can be as religious or non-religious as you please. I mean, I'm a conservative reform Jew, heading towards conservative. I go to synagogue 2-3 times a week, but I don't keep kosher. Though I don't follow all of the rules, I'm still a good Jew, or so I think.
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