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 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:46 am
Ceribri
Thank you.
... I'm not used to getting complements either, so thank you for that as well.
Oh no, thank you. I'll always blather on regardless, so it's a bonus when someone enjoys it. smile I'm afraid though that the 'Lady Friend' refered to in my post above though wasn't you, but rather my real-life cohabitant who got most of the ideas in that last post of mine into complete sentances while we were talking straight after watching it. Her being more perceptive than me is particularly annoying this time because, although she loves NewWho, she usually falls asleep when she tries to watch the Classic Series. Pyramids of Mars she drifted off during the over night. Pyraminds of Mars!Don't worry though, I'm certain that, as I spent more time on the guild, I will find plenty of things to compliment you about. smile
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Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:56 am
I just can't see any specific Doctor being a "fan" or admirer of any other specific Doctor. You know what I mean--they all see themselves as the best version, and tend to argue & insult each other when they get stuck together. It's that massive ego they all share. xd Now, I really could see 10, or 9, being very wistful and nostagic for those days before the war and the life any of the pre-war selves led, but I just can't see picking one version above the rest and being all fanboy towards him.
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Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:45 am
Eirwyn I just can't see any specific Doctor being a "fan" or admirer of any other specific Doctor. You know what I mean--they all see themselves as the best version, and tend to argue & insult each other when they get stuck together. Your take doesn't quite fit with what we've seen in The Three Doctors though, does it? The Second and Third are both clearly admirers of the First and defer to him as if he were their superior from the minute he shows up.
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Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:36 pm
Richard_Swift Ceribri
Thank you.
... I'm not used to getting complements either, so thank you for that as well.
Oh no, thank you. I'll always blather on regardless, so it's a bonus when someone enjoys it. smile I'm afraid though that the 'Lady Friend' refered to in my post above though wasn't you, but rather my real-life cohabitant who got most of the ideas in that last post of mine into complete sentances while we were talking straight after watching it. Her being more perceptive than me is particularly annoying this time because, although she loves NewWho, she usually falls asleep when she tries to watch the Classic Series. Pyramids of Mars she drifted off during the over night. Pyraminds of Mars!Don't worry though, I'm certain that, as I spent more time on the guild, I will find plenty of things to compliment you about. smile I didn't think you were referring to me, actually. It was just funny to think that since you just quoted my post.
=3 Aww.. you're sweet. And I'm off-topic now. ><; xD
Anyways, in The Five Doctors, they acted exactly like Eirwyn described. I'm sure that they might have some kind of deference to the First since he's oldest, but even in the Dead Ringers spoof it's pretty obvious that they all bicker at each other.
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:39 pm
Ceribri
Anyways, in The Five Doctors, they acted exactly like Eirwyn described.
Absolutely. And the Second and Third act towards each other in exactly the way she described in The Three Doctors and the Second and Sixth act exactly the way she described in The Two Doctors. She's right on the money as far as the general pattern's gone. My point was just that since we've seen one televisised exception to that pattern, it's no big deal to see another. Just speaking personally though, I think the Doctor is capable of genuine growth and change on a more than superficial level and that the particular nature of the Doctor's ego is something we've seen addressed quite a bit in NewWho.
Look at the Ninth Doctor in Boom Town - sat round a table with his friends, relaxed and laughing as Jack and Mickey held court and dominated the conversation. No previous Doctor would have been socially functional in that situation. They'd all have either had to make themselves the centre of attention, or to sit in shadows and play the Mysterious Outsider card. If the Doctor can grow up past his "Look at me! Look at me!" tendancies into someone comfortable being just one of a group of mates having a drink and a laugh, then he can grow out of being such a desperate egomanic that he has to try and prove himself better than himself.
That said, of course, I still think the Tenth Doctor has so far been the most arrogant incarnation of them all, but that's all come not from him thinking himself the best there is, but from him thinking himself all there is.
Ceribri
I'm sure that they might have some kind of deference to the First since he's oldest,
Which always seemed nuts to me since he's actually...y'know, the youngest.
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:14 pm
In The Three Doctors, I don't remember 2 & 3 really being respectful of 1 so much as 1 turned up on the screen and shut them up by being just as rude to them as they were being to each other. lol He insulted them both & made them indignant, then started bossing them around.
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:44 pm
Eirwyn In The Three Doctors, I don't remember 2 & 3 really being respectful of 1 so much as 1 turned up on the screen and shut them up by being just as rude to them as they were being to each other. lol He insulted them both & made them indignant, then started bossing them around. The deference lies in that they don't contest his brusqueness towards them. He puts them in thier place and they stand there and take it as if it were thier due. He's not bickering - he's pulling rank, and the later Doctors react as if he has a right to, listen respectfully and act as if his advice and opinions have greater weight than thier own.
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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:49 am
New poll. In which I've annoyingly mucked up tense-agreement. scream But can't be bothered to correct the grammar now. The first option is the Makes No Sense/Impossible version we see on screen. The second option is the Makes Perfect Sense version from the original script and the novelisation. Which happened? Meanwhile...the little profile on Time Crash in this month's DWM agrees with Eirwyn that the "You were my Doctor" line should be taken as metafiction. Even going so far as to say that's the only way to read it, which is a bit loopy. Still, even if it were then it's not the first bit of metafiction in televised Who, and nowhere near as drastic as The Feast of Steven or Rememberance. On the 'Where does Infinte Quest go?' thing we were talking about, Doctor Who - The Complete Adventures puts it before 42 rather than after it. I wish they'd 'show their workings' more on that site so we could judge the logic by which they arrive at their placements. Some more updates to my personal canon... [IN!] Torchwood novels, Sarah-Jane Audio Books an other full-length spin-offs from the spin-offs.
[OUT!]The short fiction in the back of the ' Files' books. Production-team-approved or not, I think these tiny efforts are going to be seen as pretty disposable. And I'm damned if I'm paying a fiver for an almost content-free and almost identical picture books that have two or three pages of original fiction stuck at the back.
[OUT!] Information on 'in-universe' websites like Martha's blog and the Torchwood one and all the others BBCi keep themselves busy setting up. Cute, but I'm too old and grumpy to adapt to such novelties.
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:31 pm
Bored in work today so started doing that (ever-so-slightly-autisticish) thing that fans are prone to.
Trying to work out the order in which all the Doctor's adventures occured to him.
Even TV-only fans are prone to a bit of this, trying to work out when the multi-Doctor adventures 'happen' for the eralier incarnations. And in fact its one of those riddles I'm mulling over now.
See, I've started with the Fifth Doctor's life (just because I've been listening to a lot of his audios recently) and am stuck on two things. Where the comics fit , which is a big problem, and the more manageable puzzle of when, from Five's perspective, Time Crash happened.
As far as I can see then the first clue we get is PeteDoc's outrage at the 'Desktop theme' being changed. Since he reconfigures the look of the TARDIS in The Five Doctors himself then you could either say this suggests Time Crash happens before The Five Doctors and inspires his own redecorating, or say it suggests Time Crash happens after Five Doctors as PeteDoc's furious that it got changed after he went to all the trouble of making it lovely.
Which way do you see it? Look! I've put up a poll!
The other bunch of clues is when DaveDoc runs through all the experiences he thinks PeteDoc might have had. This is odd, since if Ten does remember experiencing the story from his earlier self's point of view then he'd surely also have a rough idea of when it happened to him. From that I'm inclined to think that Time Crash does indeed happen after all the stuff that Ten mentions as he wouldn't knowingly give Five details about his own future. Ten's too much of a Back to the Future fanboy for that.
So for the Fifth Doctor, Time Crash probably happens after "Nyssa and Tegan? Cybermen and Mara and Time Lords in funny hats and the Master?"
Well, the first doesn't help us much since he has Nyssa and Tegan onboard right from the start of his incarnation. The Mara doesn't help much either as that could be one of two stories. Cybermen too, given Spare Parts.
The reference to the Master's probably the only helpful thing there, since if Five knows that Ten encounters him then he'll have to stop being surprised that the Master keeps surviving. So, if I recall, that'd have to place the story after Time Flight.
Other hints are "You mostly went hands free", which seems to place it after the Doctor's loss of the Sonic Screwdriver in The Visitation.
Right then, so ideally we're looking for a point in Five's life after Season 19, probably after Arc of Infinity to allow for silly hats and while Five knows that the Master is alive.
Again, I find myself drawn back to The Five Doctors. If Time Crash happened inbetween The Kings Demons and The Five Doctors then the references to the Master work, the glimpse of a changed 'desktop theme' could be taken as a spur to the Fifth Doctor to pimp his ride, and Five doesn't seem quite so dense for not figuring out who Ten is as he would do if Time Crash were set after that story.
I think I've talked myself ito this. Mostly because it'd just be so wonderfully weird to think of Time Crash as a prelude to The Five Doctors. Any thoughts, anyone?
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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:42 pm
Well, here's where I'm up to. I've got the Fifth Doctor's telly episodes, novels, audios and comics into order. Which TV serials the audios and books occur between is usually straightforward (the books say on the back and the audios cutely hide the information in thier production codes). However when multiple novels and audios occur in the same 'gap' between TV stories then it's not always clear which happens first so a lot of personal discretion is needed. What I mean is that when I say Sands of Time and Zeta Major both occur between Arc of Infinity and Snakedance then (if you think the happened at all) that's a pretty solid fact, but when I say Sands of Time happened before Zeta Major then that's just me excersing my judgement. Hopefully I've explained my thinking in the 'puzzles' sections at the start of each Season. Short stories aren't included yet, as I decide if they 'count' for me on a story-by-story basis and I'm really behind on the Short Trips series. I'll stick the few I'm certain are in my canon into the list later. Resources I've consulted while cobbling this together include the I,Who series of books, AHistory, Wikipedia, the Doctor Who Guide website, the Whoniverse website and the Complete Adventures website. None of which agree with me, or each other, on where everything goes, but that's the fun. I've colour-coded TV shows like this, novels like this, comics like this, audios like this and spin-offs like this. Spin-offs I've also right-aligned to show they're separate from the Doctor's personal timeline, and I've put little arrows in to show if they 'spin out off' the preceeding adventure or 'spin into' the following one. I'm well-aware that I'm just doing this for my own idle amusement, but it'd be nice to think that it might turn out to be useful to anyone wanting to dip into the books or audios and see where they might fit into the big picture. Richard's Personal Fifth Doctor Canon. Season 19
Castrovalva
Cold Fusion
Four to Doomsday
Kinda
The Visitation
Divided Loyalties
Black Orchid
Earthshock
Time-Flight'Season 19b'
Empire of Death
The Land of the Dead
Winter for the Adept
The Mutant Phase
Primeval
Spare Parts
Creatures of Beauty
The Game
Circular Time (Spring, Summer, Autumn)
Renaissance of the Daleks
Return to the Web Planet
Season 20Puzzles: Arc of Infinity - The Morning After
Omega establishes a companionless 'sidetrip' for the Doctor after Arc of Infinity. This gives us the only place we can plausibly put the DWM 'Stockbridge Era' strips, as he's without companions in those. Personally I would have liked to place the comics closer to the end of Five's life, seeing as he's still dealing with thier aftermath in the early Sixth Doctor strips, but the audio No Place Like Home forces them to be placed earlier as the Doctor already knows Shayde when they meet in that.
So, while Tegan wraps up her life before fully rejoining the crew and Nyssa, um, helps her pack or something, the Doctor has the adventure recounted in Omega and then nips off for the extended holiday in Stockbridge during which his comic strip adventures occur.
After chewing on it, I also think it'd make most sense to have Time Crash happen here while the Doctor's alone as, if the Fifth Doctor had had any companions aboard his TARDIS then surely they'd also have shown up on the merged ship. Maybe it was even the Tenth Doctor's gentle reminder about "Nyssa and Tegan?" that reminded his earlier self to go back and pick them up.
When he does rejoin them, the novel Fear of the Dark must happen next as, from Tegan's perspective it's still only the morning after Arc of Infinity.
The remaining two novels that occur before Snakedance, Sands of Time and Zeta Major, could happen either way round, so I've just placed them according to which was published first.
Arc of Infinity
Omega
The Tides of Time
Stars Fell on Stockbridge
The Stockbridge Horror
Lunar Lagoon
4-Dimensional Vistas
The Moderator
Time Crash
Fear of the Dark
Sands of Time
Zeta Major
Snakedance
Blood Invocation
Goth Opera
Mawdryn Undead
Terminus
Enlightenment
The King's Demons
The Crystal Bucephalus
The Five Doctors
The Sirens of Time (Episodes 2&4)Season 21Puzzles: Where's Will?
The Seventh Doctor novel The Hollow Men establishes that after The Awakening, Will Chandler travelled as a companion for a short time before being returned home prior to Frontios. It's a tragedy that nobody's ever shown us any of the adventures in that 'era', as Will and the Fifth Doctor were an amazing double act.
Puzzles: How long does it take to get to Kolkoron and back?
The Doctor's off on his own for a bit couriering the Gravis about during the last episode of Frontios. Some people like to think a few of of those tricky-to-place Fifth Doctor solo stories happened to him during this time, but I'm not convinced. The only adventure we know occured 'embedded' in Frontios is Excelis Dawns.
Puzzles: Travels with Turlough
Virgin, Big Finish and the BBC novels all agree that the Doctor and Turlough adventured together for a while after losing Tegan but before meeting Peri. There's no necessary sequence though in which they must occur, so I've just placed them in publication order. Turlough and the Earthlink Dilemma, should you be wondering, was one of the few original Target novels - part of their short-lived Companions of Doctor Who range along with Harry Sullivan's War.
Warriors of the Deep
Deep Blue
The Awakening
The King of Terror
The Lunar Strangers
Frontios/Excelis Dawns
Resurrection of the Daleks
Lords of the Storm
Phantasmagoria
Imperial Moon
Loups-Garoux
Singularity
Planet of Fire arrow Turlough and the Earthlink Dilemma
Season 21bPuzzles: Was Peri's personal hygene as bad as the Doctor's?
The writers' guidelines for the Virgin books used to warn against placing stories inbetween Planet of Fire and Caves of Androzani on the basis that Peri's wearing the same costume in both. Under this view, Peri meets the Fifth Doctor in one story, loses him in the next and nothing much happens inbetween. That seems a bit severe to me given how infrequent changes of clothes could be in the JNT era. Nevertheless, Virgin stuck to it, except for one short story in a Decalog.
BBC Books didn't hold back though, and set a few novels here, thus establishing that Peri was a companion of the Fifth for a while before the regeneration. With the floodgates open, Big Finish have created a whole season of Fifth Doctor & Peri escapades set in this 'gap' and a whole new companion who travels with them for much of it, Erimem, whose life prior to joining the TARDIS crew is told in the spin-off novel The Coming of the Queen.
Red Dawn
The Ultimate Treasure
Superior Beings
Warmonger
The Curse of the Scarab
Exotron
Urban Myths
The Coming of the Queen arrow
The Eye of the Scorpion
The Church and the Crown
No Place Like Home
Nekromanteia
Blood and Hope
The Axis of Insanity
The Roof of the World
Three's a Crowd
The Council of Nicaea
The Kingmaker
The Veiled Leopard
The Gathering
Son of the Dragon
The Mind's Eye
Mission of the Viyrans
The Bride of Peladon
Season 21 (cont.)The Caves of Androzani/Circular Time (Winter)
The Twin Dilemma Anyone got any suggestions for which Doctor I should do next?
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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:47 pm
How about 6? You can have fun deciding whether to include the canceled season episodes (or at least the ones that got novelized). smile
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Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:20 am
Eirwyn How about 6? You can have fun deciding whether to include the canceled season episodes (or at least the ones that got novelized). smile Six is great fun to do this sort of thing with. Partly because his comics are as good as the comics ever got and because the Six-fanboy running Big Finish made sure Colin got all the best scripts, so I'll seize on any excuse to read/listen to them again. And partly because there's so much stuff set between the Trial and Time and the Rani that there're a lot of interesting choices to make about the sequence. It's a tricky one though, especially trying to work out when Frobisher is and isn't in the TARDIS. He and Peri leave and rejoin the Doctor a couple of times in the comics in such a way as to make it very difficult to fit them around the shows. I think I'll definately have the three 'missing season' books in there. Nightmare Fair's been referenced a good few times in the books so makes it in for me. Mission to Magnus doesn't quite chime perfectly with the bit in Mindwarp where Peri talks about Varos as the last time she met Sil, but then everything we seen on the Trial screen in that story is unreliable evidence, so there's some leeway there. And anyway, it gets mentioned in the New Adventure Legacy when the Doctor's going on about his different encounters with ice Warriors. The Ultimate Evil's the only one of them I've not read so I don't know if...hey, I've just noticed that depending on how you reckon it, there are three Sixth Doctor stories all called 'The Ultimate Evil' eek . There's that one from the Missing Season, plus the segment of the Trial that we nowadays call Terror of the Vervoids was originaly called The Ultimate Evil by its writers, and the segment of the Trial that was originally called Time INC, we nowadays call The Ultimate Evil. That a lot of ultimate evils. So yes, working out 6 will be fun...but I might hold off on it for a bit just because a continuity-quake so insane has just happened in the audios that I'm going to wait for the dust to settle. Spoiler: Charley, the Eighth Doctor's companion, has just left her Doctor in the Girl Who Never Was. At the end of which she stumbles into the Sixth Doctor's TARDIS. eek
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:52 am
lol Did they make it sound like he'd ever seen Charley before in the first Charley audio, or shall we say something's fried the Doctor's memory again? (You can actually say that about "The Two Doctors", since it was mentioned that the stuff Dastari used to knock #2 out affects the memory. Nice touch!) mrgreen
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:42 pm
Eirwyn lol Did they make it sound like he'd ever seen Charley before in the first Charley audio, or shall we say something's fried the Doctor's memory again? (You can actually say that about "The Two Doctors", since it was mentioned that the stuff Dastari used to knock #2 out affects the memory. Nice touch!) mrgreen
I'd need to listen to Storm Warning again, but I'd be very surprised if there's any indication there that the Doctor already knows her. So either there's been some brain frying going on (always plausible where Eight is involved since he loses his memory more often than I lose my keys) or maybe...(ala Cold Fusion and Time Crash) the Doctor's been keeping very closely to himself foreknowledge of everything that's been going on. Which would be more the sort of closed, sneaky manipulative behaviour you'd associate with the Seventh Doctor than with the impulsive Eighth, but you never know.
Perhaps the most interesting possibility is that Charley's somehow able to conceal who she is from the Sixth Doctor during her adventures with him, and we'll have the fun of seeing a companion who knows more about the Doctor and his future than he ever has any awareness of.
Can't to find out how they're going to handle it. The first Sixth Doctor and Charley audio will be The Condemned next month. Then there's another Six and Evelyn story in May. Good times to be a Colin-ist. smile
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