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 Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:46 pm
I don't mean to start a whole new debate or anything, I just have a question about the genetic homosexuality argument.
Now, I'm going on what I remember from biology a few years ago, but IF homosexuality was decided by genetics, would it not have been bred out of the gene pool centuries ago, as Darwin's survival of the fittest points out?
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:40 pm
Well, gay people marry anyway and have kids. How many kids out there are messed up because they find out their mom or dad is a homosexual and leaves for another woman/man? Especially back when everyone was really making babies, because homosexuals were persecuted. homosexuality might be a recessive gene.
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:33 pm
Eloen I don't mean to start a whole new debate or anything, I just have a question about the genetic homosexuality argument. Now, I'm going on what I remember from biology a few years ago, but IF homosexuality was decided by genetics, would it not have been bred out of the gene pool centuries ago, as Darwin's survival of the fittest points out? Science has stated it's the hormones in the womb... but how come identical twins who have the same womb, same conditions, and same genetics don't turn out with the same orientation... I think those scientists are corrupted. Anyway on this viewing of being less than persons, it's ridiculous.... 100% ridiculous. First off, gays do have rights like everyone else, no one is forcing them to be straight... they only make up this garbage to make people show sympathy. It's not thought provoking at all, it's just crap. Sorry, but that's just the way I see it... Secondly, mental illness or not, it has no biological ties... no science can identify the cause. It's not hormones, and it's not genetics, I don't care how many people say it is, it's not because the results of twin studies. Just search it on google. They are not born gay, like they claim, they just some how ended up gay and are happy. I find it funny, but some people do like playing the victim, I used to love doing that until I got psychiatric help. It was always so fun to try and see how many people would show me sympathy for whatever cause... and I see the exact same thing happening with gay rights activists, they are trying to gain public sympathy and make people riled up. Thirdly, the main reason I don't support gay rights is the fact that most gay right activists are trying to incriminate those who are religious. I mean, if we believe it's a sin and is morally wrong, it's our duty to hold to our beliefs and oppose what we believe as wrong, and they can't accept it. Instead we are called bigots and such. It's defiling really.... Well that's just my stance, sorry if it offended anyone.
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:41 pm
And I believe that homosexuality is not curable by anyone but the person who is homosexual.
I don't know if anyone believes me, but I've known a couple of homosexuals who turned hetero through faith, and show no signs of homosexuality.
So it may be a spiritual thing, where demons are corrupting the soul... but that's if you believe in that sort of thing as I do. I guess it really just comes down to whether or not you believe in God, and if you do believe in God, do you believe there is a devil who has dark angels at his command.
For me, I have the theory that people that turn out gay are plagued by these dark spirits that influence their mind. It's like how the Bible states that the Devil can tempt mortals into doing wrong. But that's just my theory... and I guess I have the back up by the fact that there are homosexuals that changed orientation through faith.
Depends on what you want to believe... I believe there is a God, and I believe that only He knows what it is that plagues those deemed as homosexuals.
Sorry, I'm just stating what I believe in.
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:39 pm
Ah, but until there is the scientist's fabled 'irrefutable' proof that God exists, there will be no proof that the devil and his demons exist either. And if the demons don't exist, there will be none plaguing the homosexuals. Therefore, since God and the Devil don't exist from a scientific standpoint, there must be some other reason that people turn out homosexual. And so the scientists go on searching for their answers.
But I don't see how homosexuality could be recessive; with a recessive gene, any other gene will cover it up, so to create a successful genetically homosexual human, two homosexuals must procreate.. successfully. And I haven't seen that done yet.
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:15 am
Eloen Ah, but until there is the scientist's fabled 'irrefutable' proof that God exists, there will be no proof that the devil and his demons exist either. And if the demons don't exist, there will be none plaguing the homosexuals. Therefore, since God and the Devil don't exist from a scientific standpoint, there must be some other reason that people turn out homosexual. And so the scientists go on searching for their answers. But I don't see how homosexuality could be recessive; with a recessive gene, any other gene will cover it up, so to create a successful genetically homosexual human, two homosexuals must procreate.. successfully. And I haven't seen that done yet.
They don't realize this, yet, and environmental factors influence it, and makes it more recognizable to the person who is indeed gay.
And it's not passed on from person to person, like hereditary baldness, it just occurs naturally, as it does in animals.
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:46 am
Eloen Ah, but until there is the scientist's fabled 'irrefutable' proof that God exists, there will be no proof that the devil and his demons exist either. And if the demons don't exist, there will be none plaguing the homosexuals. Therefore, since God and the Devil don't exist from a scientific standpoint, there must be some other reason that people turn out homosexual. And so the scientists go on searching for their answers. But I don't see how homosexuality could be recessive; with a recessive gene, any other gene will cover it up, so to create a successful genetically homosexual human, two homosexuals must procreate.. successfully. And I haven't seen that done yet. Scientifically there is no correct answers to this debate. It depends on whether you believe in God or not, science is a point of view depending on whether you are an evolutionist or creationist. And talking about homosexuals and genes, twin studies have shown it cannot be biological. As Identical twins do not have the same orientation. I think that if it has something to do with hormones or whatever it is without considering demons, it has to take place some time after birth, and outside that of hormones. What it is... I don't know, I only know what it's not so far.
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:54 pm
well, people with blue eyes get two recessive genes, supposedly, so eventually, it'll match up to someone.
That's just if it is theoretically genetic.
Do you know why I find it logically hard to believe homosexuals choose to be homosexual?
First of all, because for centuries they were beaten, killed, etc. for it, right up until, oh, today.
Secondly, it's harder to find a partner. Seriously. Going up to someone who's your sex and risking them being homosexual as well? you're putting your health at risk if the person takes offense and decides to beat the hell outta you.
Third, I've known gay people who honestly didn't know they were gay until the hormones acted up, just like how most kids don't really think of people as cute or hot until puberty kicks in. Hell, my friend'd get kicked out of his house if his parents knew, he was almost suspended for asking the counselor for help, and he lost a lot of his friends when he came out.
Finally....just the thought of sleeping with a girl sexually makes me cringe. I don't think I'd want to force myself into liking it.
Who honestly wakes up and asks for that? Scientifically, this can't be proven right now. Religion-wise, varies from person to person really. Socially, it's a touchy topic. This isn't exactly the best topic to discuss in this guild, being that we're an odd medley of people from both sides. I mean, we could always take it to Chatterbox or PMs or something. The article didn't really ask for an argument on homosexuality: good or bad. It pointed out that homosexuals are one of the groups that has been persecuted and treated as a group of non-persons for millenia, and it still happens to an extent today. Being homosexual and prochoice is hypocritical. It's expecting to be treated as a person while discriminating against other humans due to their age. Same goes with people who're descendants of slaves. I'm not a mod, nor am I the captain, but I do frequent this guild and I do believe that this is one of those issues that would be better discussed outside the guild so it won't drive us apart over a completely different issue.
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:23 pm
I don't think it's exactly a choice. I think it's something deeper than that, and I do think that a person can change their orientation under the right circumstances.
It works both ways, I think I could become gay under the right circumstances and conditions.... but you have to understand that homosexuality could be an irreversible learned behavior... not that it is, but that it could be. And children taking things up in their environment learn things a certain way.
Come to think of it, more and more people now a days have done something sexual with the same sex.
I do not think it has anything to do with hormones as most people will believe. But the fact is that people are just accepting any explanation, and that is what makes for many mistakes. I have many theories, but I don't accept them.
I do however, believe that homosexuality is a choice that people don't know they have. I think people can change if they were highly motivated to, but I do believe they should have the right to choose how they want to live, and I don't believe they should call anyone names when fighting for their rights, nor should they go onto rants and make themselves look stupid.
That's all. Besides, a lot of my gay friends are happy being gay, and happy being attracted to their same sex... so if they're happy with their state of mind even though everyone else isn't, why would they change, and why would we want to change them?
I'm kind of 51% against gay rights, I think they should have a civil union, but this is a whole different issue, I think I'll save up 20k gold and make a gay marriage debate guild later on.
Peace all.
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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:51 am
FreeArsenal, I don't know exactly why you believe that a homosexual person can change under the right circumstances, but if someone is gay, they will always be gay. Whether they admit it or not, they're gay. Sexuality goes deeper and more complex than just a base evaluation of who you have sex with. It's about having intimacy that, for you, feels right. It's about loving a member of the same sex with true, deep feelings, and it's about knowing that that is the thing that is -right- for you.
When you say that it's not necessarily a choice, but then say, also, that a homosexual person can 'change' under the right circumstances, I think that's rubbish myself. And it has been proven to be about body chemistry; No matter what you say.
www.apa.org
look up sexuality in there, you're sure to learn something.
So, your friends are gay, and they're happy, sure, but what about many of the other people who, as lymelady said, are beaten up for being gay? Or, in the case of Matthew Shepard, killed.
People can't just make a complete turnaround and disregard their sexual identities-- And if a person has successfully made a 'transition' from homosexual to heterosexual behaviour, they are still gay. Their desire to fit into society and its' norms, however, is stronger than the pride they have as a homosexual.
p.s. I was going to take heed to what lymelady said about this issue not being sort of, well, it causes some unrest. But I couldn't just NOT respond to FreeArsenal.
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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:38 am
I'd fully contribute to get a gay marriage debate guild. lol. Eh, don't listen to me, I'm pretty much a dimwit, my main concern is people coming to insults because once insults and character assaults start, so goes the unity of the guild and it weakens what we stand for. I mean, how much can you like someone who passes off insults? then if someone replies to that, people start taking sides and it just isn't pretty. Most people in here are mature, but this is a relaxed kinda place and people feel more free to vent here. As long as we remember to not blow eachother up and kp606's fine with it, I don't think it's an issue.
For my own two cents, he's sorta right, it's been proven. You can condition someone to change their sexual orientation. It takes a long time and a lot of consistant work, and it's like, why? If they're happy, they're happy. It doesn't work on everyone, either. With enough time, effort, money, and the right kind of clay, you can do it. I think he's just saying it can be done but....what's the point? Um, gah, gotta go to school, I'll pm you the sources when I'm back.
Edit: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/genetics/nyreview.html
that's just some thing on gene searchign and all, not that much to do with anything
http://www.someone-to-talk-to.net/July-August, 2001
firsthand accounts of people who try to change. As I said, it doesn't work a lot of the time and it's very, very stressing emotionally and I just...bleck, makes me angry.
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 7:37 am
Quote: A number of techniques have been used to try to suppress homosexual feelings and/or create heterosexual feelings in gays and lesbians: 1 Lesbians had their breasts amputated. Lesbians had their perfectly healthy uteri removed. Male gays were given aversion therapy; e.g. clients were shown pictures of naked men and simultaneously shocked with electricity. Other "treatments" included: brain surgery in the form of frontal lobotomies. castration. counseling and psychotherapy. drug therapy: e.g. animal-organ extracts, cocaine, estrogen, testosterone. positive therapy: e.g. men were asked to masturbate and then were shown pictures of women just before orgasm. prayer and spiritual counseling. therapy by tedium: men were shown homoerotic pictures until they became totally bored. During the Nazi regime in Germany, Himmler attempted to "cure" gays by requiring them to visit the camp brothel at Flossenburg. "Ten Ravensbruck women provided the services with little success. The women [were later]...shipped to Auschwitz" for execution. During the recent apartheid regime in South Africa, gays and lesbians were considered deviants. They were sent to a special ward of a military hospital to be "rehabilitated." This involved electric shock treatments and chemical castration. Those who could not be "cured" were given sex-change operations. A number of "patients" died. The success rate of these therapies in actually changing clients' sexual orientation appears to have been between 0% and something less than 0.1%. The success rate at changing clients' sexual behavior is much greater. Some of these techniques can persuade homosexuals to be celibate, either through terror, guilt, or persuasion that God considers same-sex behavior to be an abomination. They can persuade bisexuals to confine their sexual activities to members of the opposite sex. They may even be able to train gays to successfully have sex with a woman, while fantasize about making love to another man. But therapies do not seem to be capable of changing one's feelings -- one's sexual orientation -- in the vast majority of people. Quote: There are two methods that are still in use by which therapists and lay groups attempt to change sexual orientation: Reparative Therapy is an experimental and controversial secular therapeutic technique. Another consists of various religious and spiritual practices by Transformational Ministries. Many groups that practice these therapies estimate their "cure" rate at 70% or more. Many gays, lesbians, mental-health professionals, religious liberals and human sexuality researchers estimate a rate of adult sexual orientation conversion as equal to or near 0.0%. 4 Millions of dollars per year are spent by individuals and groups: obtaining individual counseling to change sexual orientation, promoting these methods as safe and effective "cures" for homosexuality, and denigrating these methods as useless and potentially life threatening. No money or motivation appears to be available to fund a meaningful study of these counseling methods' effectiveness and potential adverse side effects. That is a pity, because there exists a lot of anecdotal evidence that failed therapy can drive many gays and lesbians into deep depression; some commit suicide.
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 7:46 am
Ah, toxic.
If you weren't a gorgeous woman...
The things we could do.
xd
heart
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 7:10 pm
IT even said close to 0%, not exactly. It only takes one person out of all those things to determine that it is possible, no matter how rare. It's extremely rare. It can be done. Like I said, not on everyone. Even if you WANT to change, it doesn't necessarily mean you can. I think he's just saying, homosexuality is a choice in that some people can be conditioned to go the other way, and it has happened and I really, really hate that they try it. People end up so damn depressed. Why do they bother messing with it? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. DOn't you love it that a lot of the people who frown on homosexuality worry about overpopulation? Sorry, ranting, point is, in certain conditions, it has been done and it's a damn shame. There was this fruit fly experiment that tried to prove that it's a gene, but that didn't look so promising, not the one they're looking at. I do believe there's something chemical, very strongly. But depression is a chemical thing, and that can be changed; the chemical balance is changed and it just does weird things. Hope no one tells me depression is a choice too, next it's gonna be what color skin we have is our choice and our hair color and eye color. We're born with what we've got. What we do with it is our choice, but it isn't our choice how we are. If I am gay, I can either never have sex, marry some guy and pretend I'm not, or come out. I can tell you which one would improve the quality of my life, and it isn't either of the first two. If that is what choice is, than yes, I agree it's a choice who you have sex with, but why is it wrong to choose the way you're meant to choose?
Course, I'm going on my 38th hour of no sleep, haven't eaten in a day, and am extremely annoyed with life, so none of that made sense, probably. It's been done. It's scary. I'd never, ever let someone change me like that. I couldn't. I'd rather burn in hell forever than have someone tell me what I'm supposed to be and how I"m supposed to feel.
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Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:45 am
It's all an opinion in reality.
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