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 Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:03 pm
FreeArsenal I'll agree that sex is a biological drive... but I'll disagree that ALL relationships need it. Every relationship is different, so it really depends. The basic argument we're putting up is "if you can't afford to get pregnant then hold out for a while." A strained relationship is better than taking a life.
A happy, healthy relationship needs some key factors in order to sustain itself, there needs to be a level of trust, a level of commitment, compatibility, attraction etc. sex is one of the things a relationship needs. Not right away, of course, but don't expect to be in a happy, loving relationship for the next 60 years, and never have sex with the person.
That said, there are always exceptions to the rule. The key word there being "exceptions" you cannot base things around them.
Sex is not the problem. Abortion is. They are two seperate entities.
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:31 pm
Beware the Jabberwock FreeArsenal I'll agree that sex is a biological drive... but I'll disagree that ALL relationships need it. Every relationship is different, so it really depends. The basic argument we're putting up is "if you can't afford to get pregnant then hold out for a while." A strained relationship is better than taking a life.
A happy, healthy relationship needs some key factors in order to sustain itself, there needs to be a level of trust, a level of commitment, compatibility, attraction etc. sex is one of the things a relationship needs. Not right away, of course, but don't expect to be in a happy, loving relationship for the next 60 years, and never have sex with the person.
That said, there are always exceptions to the rule. The key word there being "exceptions" you cannot base things around them.
Sex is not the problem. Abortion is. They are two seperate entities.I agree. Eventually, any romantic relationship is (in almost all cases) going to involve sex. While you can enjoy dating without sex (if you call that "enjoy" *wink*), at the very least one is going to get married at some point. Obviously, if more people would choose to refrain from having sex, there would be fewer abortions. I mean, people very rarely get pregnant without choosing to have sex. But, since not everyone is using safer sex practices, it is good to also educate people about these, as well as stressing abstinence.
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:36 pm
WatersMoon110 This thread was so "Bash Pro-Choicer for they R Stoopid" (or maybe just "Bash Stupid Pro-Choicers" I couldn't tell), that I thought I wasn't in the SubForum, and I had to check a few times. Anyway, I would like to point out that, while there are other ways to gain sexual pleasure than vaginal sex, it really isn't anyone's business what any given couple is doing, assuming that both members are of age. And telling someone who is pregnant and thinking about aborting, "Well, you shouldn't have had sex," is not very helpful. I fully support that abstinence is a good thing, but only people who have personal, moral, reasons for refraining from sex are going to do so. Which is, of course, why one also needs to be taught about safe r sex practices. I see nothing wrong with people choosing to refrain from sex, and I want to congratulate all those who have/do (yay you guys!). But anyone who expects my husband and I to refrain from (safe r) sex...well, prepare to be disappointed. *wink* I don't think they were talking about people that are married, we all know married couples have sex (or should have sex if they want to have the marriage last). Maybe their talking about non-married couples? All I know is that there are times that sex can help an relationship to say strong and there are times that is can ruin a relationship (depends on the situtation and if the person felt they had to have sex even when not ready to or in short term relationships it might not be a good idea since people can become emotionally attached and would make it harder to deal with but that's their choice). To me, relationships should be more then just sex. Would it be important? I guess so,especially if your married but it's not the most important thing.
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:40 pm
sachiko_sohma I don't think they were talking about people that are married, we all know married couples have sex (or should have sex if they want to have the marriage last). Maybe their talking about non-married couples? All I know is that there are times that sex can help an relationship to say strong and there are times that is can ruin a relationship (depends on the situtation and if the person felt they had to have sex even when not ready to or in short term relationships it might not be a good idea since people can become emotionally attached and would make it harder to deal with but that's their choice). To me, relationships should be more then just sex. Would it be important? I guess so,especially if your married but it's not the most important thing. I agree. Sex should never be the most important thing in a relationship, if one wants it to last. And, if both people aren't ready for it, sex can really ruin a relationship. I think it is very important for people to wait until they are ready for sex. I actually sort of like the "Being a Virgin is Cool" government ads, just because they might actually convince some people that they don't have to go out and have sex to feel accepted, maybe.
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:43 pm
I just wanted to stress that I think the message to teens needs to be:
"Don't have sex until you are ready. If you do have sex, use contraceptives. Don't get pregnant!"
And maybe:
"Babies are no fun while you're in school! Use a freakin' condom!"
*grin*
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:33 pm
Beware the Jabberwock I disagree with this statement on a level. I mean yes, to some extent every relationship is different because every person is different, however at the same time they're not all that different either.
A happy, healthy relationship needs some key factors in order to sustain itself, there needs to be a level of trust, a level of commitment, compatibility, attraction etc. sex is one of the things a relationship needs. Not right away, of course, but don't expect to be in a happy, loving relationship for the next 60 years, and never have sex with the person.
That said, there are always exceptions to the rule. The key word there being "exceptions" you cannot base things around them.
Sex is not the problem. Abortion is. They are two seperate entities. I disagree on this view entirely, but I guess I can agree to disagree.
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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:06 am
FreeArsenal Beware the Jabberwock I disagree with this statement on a level. I mean yes, to some extent every relationship is different because every person is different, however at the same time they're not all that different either.
A happy, healthy relationship needs some key factors in order to sustain itself, there needs to be a level of trust, a level of commitment, compatibility, attraction etc. sex is one of the things a relationship needs. Not right away, of course, but don't expect to be in a happy, loving relationship for the next 60 years, and never have sex with the person.
That said, there are always exceptions to the rule. The key word there being "exceptions" you cannot base things around them.
Sex is not the problem. Abortion is. They are two seperate entities. I disagree on this view entirely, but I guess I can agree to disagree.
Beyond that, if you believe that sex is the problem are you suggesting that people should have sex only when they intend to get pregnant and no other time?
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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:48 pm
Beware the Jabberwock FreeArsenal Beware the Jabberwock I disagree with this statement on a level. I mean yes, to some extent every relationship is different because every person is different, however at the same time they're not all that different either.
A happy, healthy relationship needs some key factors in order to sustain itself, there needs to be a level of trust, a level of commitment, compatibility, attraction etc. sex is one of the things a relationship needs. Not right away, of course, but don't expect to be in a happy, loving relationship for the next 60 years, and never have sex with the person.
That said, there are always exceptions to the rule. The key word there being "exceptions" you cannot base things around them.
Sex is not the problem. Abortion is. They are two seperate entities. I disagree on this view entirely, but I guess I can agree to disagree.
Beyond that, if you believe that sex is the problem are you suggesting that people should have sex only when they intend to get pregnant and no other time?It's also biology. But it's a view point because psychology and sociology, even though the studies are done by "professionals" there is still no such thing as an unbiased human, and I don't believe in the science of statistics. At it's core issue, sex is part of the problem, not the entirety of it. When you have sex is up to you, but it's still part of the cause for people calling for abortion.
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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:31 pm
Sex is a biological urge, but beyond that it has nothing to do with what I was talking about.
I'm not suggesting that you have to have sex before a certain point. Some people can be in a relationship years, and indeed wait until marriage to have sex and that is perfectly fine. What I'm saying is that you cannot expect people to be together for the next 60 years, married or not and not have sex.
This idea of treating sex like a pandemic that must be stopped, or at least contained until the person having sex wants a child is ridiculous. It only serves to strengthen the pro-life image as completely puritanical.
You can say that not everyone needs to have vaginal sex, this is true. Lesbian couples don't, gay couples don't and I have heard tell of asexual people. While this is fine you cannot base your expectations upon a minority of people.
Sex can be a precursor to pregnancy, nothing more. This is like saying that people should stop making out because it can be a precursor to having sex. In fact they should stop dating entirely because that can be a precursor to making out, etc.
I have had sex. I have had sex with multiple partners. I have had sex with someone I was not even dating. My mother has had sex, she had sex when she was a teenager. One of my good friends, who is also a member of this guild (theallpowerfull) has had sex, in fact I often make fun of him and refer to him as "AIDzilla" because he's had quite a few partners. My best friend has had sex, she's had sex with more people than I can count of both my hands. And already has a 2 1/2, almost 3 year old daughter. She also believes that abortion should be legal.
The common denominator? None of us have, or ever would have an abortion. The guy in there, would not want his SO to have an abortion, and would raise the child himself if he had to. Why? Because all of us feel that having an abortion and taking the life of your child is wrong.
Sex for all of those people listed, and more that I can come up with, I'm sure, is not the problem at hand. The problem at hand is societies view of abortion itself, and societies view that a persons immediate gratification is worth more than the life of another.
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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:39 pm
WatersMoon110 Beware the Jabberwock FreeArsenal I'll agree that sex is a biological drive... but I'll disagree that ALL relationships need it. Every relationship is different, so it really depends. The basic argument we're putting up is "if you can't afford to get pregnant then hold out for a while." A strained relationship is better than taking a life.
A happy, healthy relationship needs some key factors in order to sustain itself, there needs to be a level of trust, a level of commitment, compatibility, attraction etc. sex is one of the things a relationship needs. Not right away, of course, but don't expect to be in a happy, loving relationship for the next 60 years, and never have sex with the person.
That said, there are always exceptions to the rule. The key word there being "exceptions" you cannot base things around them.
Sex is not the problem. Abortion is. They are two seperate entities.I agree. Eventually, any romantic relationship is (in almost all cases) going to involve sex. While you can enjoy dating without sex (if you call that "enjoy" *wink*), at the very least one is going to get married at some point. Obviously, if more people would choose to refrain from having sex, there would be fewer abortions. I mean, people very rarely get pregnant without choosing to have sex. But, since not everyone is using safer sex practices, it is good to also educate people about these, as well as stressing abstinence.
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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:19 pm
Beware the Jabberwock Oh yes, definitely. But you also have to take into consideration that the people who would be most likely to stop having sex, are the people who would not get an abortion anyway. I mean really and truely, if you have no problem with an abortion, and you want to have sex, why wouldn't you? You know? I'm not sure. I know that there are people who are both Pro-Choice and virginal. But I don't know for certain that they have "no problem" with abortion. I mean, even I have some problems with abortion at some stages. *wink* I guess that people do have other reasons for choosing not to have sex than just not wanting to get pregnant. Religious or other personal moral reasons, or fear of STIs.
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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:21 pm
You know, if it were actually up to me, everyone would be sterilized in some reversible way until they were ready for children. Maybe with Mandatory Parenting Classes first (maybe we should have these anyway?).
*grin*
I can dream at least.
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Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:08 am
WatersMoon110 Beware the Jabberwock Oh yes, definitely. But you also have to take into consideration that the people who would be most likely to stop having sex, are the people who would not get an abortion anyway. I mean really and truely, if you have no problem with an abortion, and you want to have sex, why wouldn't you? You know? I'm not sure. I know that there are people who are both Pro-Choice and virginal. But I don't know for certain that they have "no problem" with abortion. I mean, even I have some problems with abortion at some stages. *wink* I guess that people do have other reasons for choosing not to have sex than just not wanting to get pregnant. Religious or other personal moral reasons, or fear of STIs. I know that pregnancy and STD's are what I would worry about. Even if your careful, those things can still happen. Though I do agree that people should know more about safe sex and mandatory parenting classes is a good idea if someone is pregnant or thinking about wanting kids. Alot of parents don't seem to know what to do or properly care for kids. We can't sterilize anyone and then unsterilize them (wish we did have an on or off button when it comes to pregnancy or way to transfer the fetus to a artifical womb).
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Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:54 am
WatersMoon110 Beware the Jabberwock Oh yes, definitely. But you also have to take into consideration that the people who would be most likely to stop having sex, are the people who would not get an abortion anyway. I mean really and truely, if you have no problem with an abortion, and you want to have sex, why wouldn't you? You know? I'm not sure. I know that there are people who are both Pro-Choice and virginal. But I don't know for certain that they have "no problem" with abortion. I mean, even I have some problems with abortion at some stages. *wink* I guess that people do have other reasons for choosing not to have sex than just not wanting to get pregnant. Religious or other personal moral reasons, or fear of STIs.
However at the same time, telling people that they shouldn't be having sex until they're ready for a child is the wrong way to go.
I mean, I lost my virginity when I was 15 (almost 16, I was like 16 in a little over a week) I was young, but at the same time I don't regret it, nor would I go back and change it. I had been with the guy for a year, I made sure we were protected and he and I had both dicussed the "what-if" senario of pregnancy. He knew I would not have an abortion.
I'm also not saying people "don't have a problem" with abortion, in terms of wanting to go through it. I don't have a problem with giving blood, however the though of it makes me feel icky and want to pass out. What I mean is that people who morally have no qualms with the idea of having an abortion are not likely to care about people saying "Wait to have sex, until you're ready to have a child!"
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Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:42 pm
Beware the Jabberwock This idea of treating sex like a pandemic that must be stopped, or at least contained until the person having sex wants a child is ridiculous. Again, this isn't an argument that says " sex is a pandemic," this is an argument against the argument of " I can't afford to get pregnant now or my life is ruined." The contained portion of it is that the person should wait until they can afford to get pregnant without their life being ruined. If you're life is really in such a troubling position in which 9 months of carrying the child will ruin your life, vaginal sex for that period of time definitely is not worth the life of another human being. Beware the Jabberwock Sex for all of those people listed, and more that I can come up with, I'm sure, is not the problem at hand. The problem at hand is societies view of abortion itself, and societies view that a persons immediate gratification is worth more than the life of another. I agree with you that the view on abortion is the "major" reason for the problem, but to say sex has absolutely no part of it I would still disagree. The major reason I disagree with these portions of your argument is because the basis is that your personal experiences mean it is true for all cases, or true in most cases as long as the person is pro-life. The point is that sex is still a part of the problem because of society or how society may view sex along with abortion. The physical act of sex may not be the problem as you claim, but the views on sex and the "need" of it can be a case of why people argue for abortion in general. These are viewpoints, and there are no hard points that can really be argued extensively. Neither position can be proven fully.
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