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Alright, so this is how I really feel about religion. I sincerely hope this doesn't offend anyone--as it wasn't ment to.

This is my conclusion, thus far, after about 4+ years of near-constant exercises in philosophy. In those years, I have bounced around the various degrees of "atheism," and have currently settled upon a mystic outlook that is based on logic and probabilities.

Start by breaking everything down. Return to the assumption of "I know nothing," and build up from there. Ignore the things one was taught as a child and build everything up from scratch. Things are different now. We are capable of rational thought, by now, whereas as children, we weren't. If you look back at the movies and books you liked as a child, you may find them substandard. The same goes with beliefs.

In other words, assume that nobody else knows better than you. Priests, old people, long-dead authors. Why would they know about the nature of higher powers? Aside from what they say, what shows that they are superior in that aspect? Why would God talk to Father Insert-Name-Here instead of you? Is he a better person than you? In most cases, he's probably worse. So, break it all down.

Opinions are based in Will. The great fallacy I find in people who are wrapped up in standard religions is that they refuse to exercise their will. Why do I say that? Because they accept the truths given to them by others. Do they take the time to find their truths for themselves? No. Do they even question the truths given to them? At most, feebly. In refusing to exercise their Will, they refuse to use that which makes them human. This is a crime against the entire species.

It's the blind leading the blind, and it's holding us back.

What I find especially humorous is that these weak-willed animals believe themselves to be superior to those who actually take the time to consider those intangible things that strike fear into the weak.

Yes, I actually said that. It had to be said.

After all, what makes humans different? It's our ability to express our Will, and use it to change the universe around us. Exactly how powerful the Will is remains to be seen, but it is the fundamental unit of our existence, that single thing that makes us human. Will, or Soul, or Chi, or Sentience, is what separates us from the animals. Unfortunately, most people ignore their Will, and refuse to use it on the basis of fear. In doing so, they cease to be human, and become animals.

After all, what does an animal do? It eats, sleeps, drinks, has sex, and does whatever it needs to do in order to survive. Most "humans" don't do anything but that. So what makes them any better than the hairier version of an ape? The fact that man builds? Or speaks? Or manipulates electricity? Are these things really the marker of a soul? Of Will?

Only a fool believes that the measure of a mind is based on what it does with its hands. That would mean that the construction worker is mentally superior to Socrates. That would mean that ants are more mentally developed than dolphins.

Religion is a manipulation of the need to belong. After all, a belief must be right if everyone believes it, right? This is the thinking that drives organized religion, the thought that as long as others believe the what I believe, everything will be okay. But, the trouble is, it isn't your beliefs. These are the beliefs of a priest, or an author, or some distant progenitor who isn't even remembered anymore.

It's like trying to live your life by someone else's principles. It doesn't really fit. Each individual is different, and each must live their life by different sets of rules. No one person is any more right than the other, so long as they listen to their heart rather than their genes. Very few people truly believe that murder is right. It's just that some give in to their genetic predispositions, whatever they may be. It's nothing more than a form of weakness.

That's correct. Murderers are weak. Rapists are weak. Thieves are weak. These are animals who are unable to exercise their Will. Instead, they exercise their physical power to perform tasks that satisfy some instinctive drive. They are undeserving of their humanity, for they have forsaken it.

Am I absolutely right? I don't know. Only an arrogant fool believes that he has the Absolute Truth, and that it's his duty to dispense it among the masses. However, at least I have the strength and Will to search for my own truth, instead of accepting what someone else has told me is the truth. I work infinitely harder than the average religious one who follows any given "ism"... and I believe that I'm on the path to winning my humanity.

It doesn't matter what your conclusions are. Everyone will come up with a different answer to the equation. What matters is that the effort is expended to reach that answer. That is what counts. Someone who copies someone else's answers is a lowly cheater, at best. One God, many gods, no gods, or things that are kinda like gods. It doesn't matter, so long as you worked to come to that conclusion, in which case, you deserve whatever it is you worked so hard to believe in.

Well, those are my two cents. I've only scratched the tip of the iceberg, I think. Feel free to gather a mob, or something of the sort.

I like what SeanyB had to say about religion. It reminded me of the ex-governor of my state, Jesse Ventura, when he said "Organized Religion is a crutch for weak-minded people."

I do believe that he has taken a semi-scientific route toward higher powers and a need humans have for them to prove that they are a higher power. Indeed, many atrocities occur each day with human and supernatural causes and the leaders of organized religion put a shrowd over the heads of the weak to protect them from having to face the fact somebody kidnapped and raped a 7-year old girl, then raped and murdered her, or Katrina wiped out a percentage of New Orleans. They preach of an end to 'evil' and ways to avoid it, and for those who can't develop their own opinions on harsh subject matter, it seems a logical way to set small minds at ease.

SeanyB, you make some really good points, and I don't totally disagree with you. That said, there a few points you made that I'd like to comment on.

The first is where you say that most animals just eat, drink sleep and reproduce, and that the thing that sets apart from them is our abililty to express our "Will" as you put it. The Marquis de Sade was a writer and philosopher writing in the 1700's. He wrote pornography that was frequently violent, as well as purely philosophical works. He was put in prison because he was deemed to be insane, due to the nature of the material he wrote (Unsurprisngly graphic violence teamed with explicit sex didn't go down well in France in the 1700's.) Anyway, he was often very cynical and damning of the human race, and one of the points that he made was that the difference you speak of doesn't in fact exist. If you look at people, regardless of what we build, paint, write or say ultimately it is all just a distraction from our base animal behaviour - we eat, sleep and ********. Food for thought.

Secondly, I'd like to draw your attention to a point where you contradict yourself. You will no dubt call me pretty extreme for this and I'll no doubt get flamed by pretentious idiots that hold ultimate belief in the shaky foundations of what they think they know is right. But I'm gonna say it anyway because I'm radical like that.

Basically, you say that "Religion is a manipulation of the need to belong" - that something "must be right is everyone belives it, right?" Well you then go on to say
that murderers, rapists and theives are all weak, and unable to exercise their Will.
Please note before I continue that I do not condone murder or rape. All I am doing is make a simple point at an extreme level. What I am saying is that murder, rape and theft are considered wrong because society deems them to be wrong, at this present moment in time. To understand what I mean, look at these
examples. Until about a hundred years ago, Incest was perfectly acceptable in society. Now its illegal. Less than a hundred years ago, marital rape was still perfectly legal in Britain. Now its an abhorrent crime. Within an even smaller time frame black people were still second class citizens without civil rights. Now pretty much everyone looks down on racism. They certainly look down on killing someone because of the colour of their skin.

I think it was Trotsky that said that the able would never be able to acheive their full potential unless they were able to operate completely outside the law. This just reinforces what I'm saying - that what is deemed right and wrong, whether it be discrimination in the form of racism or sexism or whether it be full blown murder, are fragile, artificial concepts created by mass society. Concepts that we need to try and keep law and order, but concepts so fragile that chages of massive proportions can be brought about in less than a century. So you see that all of mass society, which inculdes you and me, accept the fact that murder and rape are wrong because thats what we've decided for the moment. But it could all change in fifty years. I mean do you believe that murder in every single possible circumstance is wrong? The same with theft? So whilst I commend you for questioning your existence and being brave enough to search for your own truth, don't assume that you are totally innocent of accepting the truth for the sake of truth.

If you wish to discuss this further then pm me, I'm interested to hear your opinions.

No I think your pretty much right. We have the ability to chose, but are choices are influenced by too many factors for the choice to be genuine free will. Basically I think we were created with free will, but todays modern world supresses and influences it through advertising, artifical morals, social belifefs etc. Humanity's "civilised" nature and everything that goes along with being civilised, for example laws and social judgement prevent most humans inthe modern world to have total free will, because the boundries of law and society stop us from being totally existential. Religion is another tool of influence. It works in exactly the same way as a bill board for cola or cigarettes.

So yes, we have free will. But our will is so easily influenced that it may as well not exist.

Also, this isn't quite religion but I think its pretty damn interesting anyway, and Its a moral issue so it counts. I was having a conversation today about AIDs being a man made virus. The theory was that it had been unleashed on the third world as a test for a super biological weapon. Obviously the test got out of hand. What do you all think? Possible or complete fantasy? If you think it is possible who do you think is responsible?

Then I wouldn't believe in NAS. I'm not against organized religion at all. I just recognize that maybe it's not the thing for me, personally. I've got my own beliefs and my own morals that don't coincide with those of most major religions, other than Buddhism, but I won't deny the positive influence that organized religion has made on some peoples' lives. I don't believe them to be wrong or immoral. I just see it as the people that follow those religions might believe something different than me. That doesn't make me or them any more wrong or right for it. Nothing can be proven one way or the other which one religion is right and I don't think anyone should tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't believe.

My personal beliefs are a combination of Taoism, Buddhism, Kabbalism, Pantheism, and various theories about energy and spirituality.

I do not worship or pray to anything. My "God", for lack of a more proper word, is energy. As I'm sure the Tool and Bill Hicks fans in here are familiar with:

"All matter is merely energy condensed into a slow vibration."

This is true. We are not simply sacks of skin and organs. We are cold energy. Energy that has cooled down in the vaccuum of space, and on the plains of this planet, much the way water is condensed into ice.

We do not have spiritual energy inside us. We actually are made of a spiritual force. We are made of the same substance as trees, as water, as planets and stars themselves. Energy.

Therefore, when we die, we don't need to worry about trivial consciousness. We get the ultimate peace: being returned to the energy cycle in a permanently unconscious form. (I know, it sounds like I'm advocating suicide... I'm not, but I'll get to that in a second)

Certain actions, thoughts, feelings, and other thing can change the wavelength or "variety" of energy. For example, if you walk down the street smiling and enjoying the walk, you are permeating the air around you with the positive feeling. If you do the opposite, the opposite will happen. I's what's called the Butterfly Effect: a single flap of a butterfly's wings here in North America could add to the destructive power of a hurricane in Central Asia. (on suicide: suicide has negative, sad effects on everyone around you. While you won't be damned to hell for it or anything, it won't be the best for everyone around you)

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.


Well, I'll stop rambling now. If you're interested and have any questions, feel free to PM me.

I used to be in a cult. I renounced my family and went to live down south (in western australia) on this farm acridge near the sea. I thought I was getting closer to enlightenment by denying myself all this stuff while being 'in nature', when really I was getting wood ticks on my a**.
But really, it was just a hydroponics farm. I'm not sure if the people there actually believe in what they were doing or weather it was just a scam, either way it wasn't good.

I agree with alot of what SeanyB and GimpKing says....
Let me take it a little further......

Really, nothing has any inherent value, not life, not me, not you, not this computer. Only water, food, and air. Its only what you place value on. Being that reality is subjective, we dont value the same things. These include actions, murder, rape, theivery....i think their bad, but their not inherently. Because if they were.......everyone would think so, we'd know it in every fiber of our being, there'd be no doubts, no inclinations to even do it. To think there are inherently evil things, would suggest a universal moral, which dosent exist. And to say there is, you'd have to believe there was some god to have placed it there, and then you'd just be a silly theist. And, yea, i wont be nice and apologize for offending anyone, cuz......ive got better things to worry about. Anywho, there is the fact that at ours, and everything else, most basic level, is energy, which is a continual plane, no seperation just cuz you think there is, so we, and everything else are connected by this. And the fact that when people die, they decay, which is absorbed by the ground, which is absorbed by the plants, which is eaten by animals, which are eaten by other animals, which we eat all 3 of. so energy and dilluted matter of human corpses are in us! YAY! intrested in seeing replies