|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Evangelical Lutheran Church is all I have to say.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:11 pm
Shadowdragon087 Ahem, well... should i start ranting as well I agree Lion, some people are just harsh and try to force their religion on you. I live in Utah, and no I'm not Mormon, I'm Catholic, but haven't been to church in a long while so you might consider me something else. Try living in a state where the majority of the people are a different religion then you, your friends parents find that out and then they cant hang out with you or even be seen talking to you. We're lucky now that it's gotten a little better, but if someone tries to force their religion on me, i'm telling you they'd wish that they hadn't because I refuse to have it pushed on me and will defend myself. So I say to those that have tried to convert me, "Keep your religion to yourself and I'll keep mine the same, I've been a Catholic all my life and nothing is going to change that fact, what harm would i do to you just because I have a different religion?" I never had that problem when I lived in Utah. Then again, I lived on an air force base, so they couldn't go knocking on our door or anything. But, most of my friends were Mormon and none of them had a problem with me being of a different religion, just as long as I believed in God. When I converted to Athiesm, most of them stopped talking to me. When I converted to Wicca, all of the rest of them did. Even their parents didn't have a problem with me while I was Christian. Well... my best friend's mom thought I was the devil, but that was because we'd always get into trouble when we were together and of course, with her parents it was all my fault; and with my parents it was all her fault. And so we weren't allowed to hang out or even talk to each other (so much to the point where they had our teachers, vice principals, siblings, etc spy on us at school to see if we ever talked to each other), but we did anyway, and they finally gave up and dealt with it even though they didn't like it. I was really mad at my mom for having people spy on us. One day she asked me, "Have you been talking to Erinn at school?" I lied and told her no. Then she told me "so and so said you have been talking to Erinn at school". I started crying and said, "you'd believe a stranger over your own daughter?" Total guilt trip, but it worked. I felt bad for lying to her, but being able to talk to my best friend freely was more important at the time. I have no idea how that's relevant to this conversation, so I'll shut up now before I start rambling about something else.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:53 pm
Don't be silly, Maggie--the Cafe is a fluid thing, with as many topics and rants and conversations and arguments as any Starbucks in Tampa.
And actually, I find it interesting that religion, a thing that is supposed to bring people closer together, so often tears people apart. People who care about one another, but who disagree on things that no one can know.
Personally, I believe that religion at its best is free and fluid and wonderful, that it is not the product of divine mandate, but rather the sum of our own faith in something greater than ourselves. I know it isn't a textbook definition, but it's what's in my heart.
The only true religion is the expression of the heart. It cannot be organized, any more than a forest can, and still keep its beauty and purity and charm. It must be free, free and wild and primal as the wolf's howl, or the wind through the stallion's mane as it gallops with its mate through the sea of grasses on the plain. It must be sacred to the self, respected if not honored by others as a church of another faith, and above being defiled.
If people could just come to accept one another's faith...then maybe we could begin to live together--really live together, not just tolerate one another's presence on this big blue-green rock. Maybe if we could just let go of our hatred or fear or willed ignorance of others, maybe we could learn about each other, maybe just a little bit at a time...and move on, as one people, as a multitude of individuals.
Or so I believe. And you know...it's just more fun to think that way, you know? Whether you're Christian or Wiccan or whatever, if we can just accept each other...there's the possibility of something greater. There is hope.
Personally, I think that's what most of us seek in religion, in god. Hope, love, grace, understanding, peace. So why don't we give that to one another? Are we incapable as a species of being peaceful, or graceful? Is it impossible for us to try to understand one another, to strive to find something that we love about one another? I think we can. I know we can--I see many individuals here who are willing to put their differences aside and coexist. It does my heart good to see that. --- You know, someone said to me yesterday that MLK's dream would never come true, because people just can't stop fighting for dominance. Another agreed. I was horrified. I asked them if we fought for dominance, and they said no. Of course not. Why should it be different on a larger scale?
Well, they said that we were friends and respected one another. We cared for one another too much to squabble.
I pointed out a girl walking by. Do you respect her? I asked them. Would you kill her, or enslave her, if it meant you get ahead? Of course not.
Why is it that people can't believe in society, but they can believe themselves to be morally upright? Why is it that people can't believe in the dream?
You know, with this sort of dream, I think that's all that people really need to do to make it come true: just believe. Believe in yourself, in others. Believe in basic human decency and emancipation. Believe that the world might be a better place, one person at a time. Believe in the power of understanding. Believe in the power of love. Take heart, and live your own peaceful life with all the grace and understanding and love you expect from others. In the words of Mahatma Gandhi, "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." That's the only way the world will change and life will get better; only if we believe, and make attempts to make things better.
I have a dream, too. And even if my own life is a small, rough model--even if I can hardly see the keyboard or screen through my tears--it brings me joy that I see my dream coming to life around me. I see it in a smile shared with a friend and tears on a face, hear it in sobs on a shoulder, or a belly laugh. I feel it in that warm little tingle in my chest when I so something right, or share a heartfelt glance with someone. For me at least, whenever I'm happy at sad things, or touched by painful things, it's right there. You know what I'm going to say (and you're still reading)--my dream is Love. When you see the world through it, everything starts making sense, and impossible things happen--actually, a lot like with what happened between me and David. You start to see things differently. You know it's inside me, and in the invisible lines between you and me, because it's in you, too. And it's beautiful, and true, and sweet. And it makes you want to get along with me, because when you love someone, you understand them, and accept them, and want what's best for them.
But that is really a tangent.... Sorry if I've...sorry. -Andrew
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:19 pm
You just chastized her for saying sorry for going off on a tangent. I dissagree with you. Sorry. Me and my friends are constantly competing, it has nothing to do with respect. We argue different topics and such. Some people in the world are like that and some are not competitive. You can't tell me that you have never had a disagreement with a friend that lead to a fight. Have you not read a million stories about brothers who get into a quarrel about something silly and having it end up in a war between nations. I'm sorry, but I just thought you needed to hear the other side to that arguement. Peace is great and all, but I find it boring and dillusional.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:29 pm
In the words of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., "Peace is not the absence of tension but the presence of justice." Fighting is different than quarreling, and war is certainly different than competing. Am I delusional, or are you only skimming the surface of my words.... -LD
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:35 pm
I think peace goes a little farther than just not arguing.
Like Andrew said, it's about respecting each other and accepting people for who and what they are.
Arguing in inevitable, but there's a right way to do it and really unhealthy way to do it.
For example: In my philosophy class, there's this guy who will state his opinion and half the class (the ones who actually get involved in the discussions) completely disagrees with him. And all of them are too competitive to drop it. So this guy that everyone disagrees with, starts calling everyone stupid (well, his exact words were "you're retarded", but I don't like that word) and telling them to shut up. Personally, I don't blame him, because they were all gangin up on him. But, it was really unnecessary.
So the next time in class he doesn't show up and someone asked, "Why is it like that" (the yelling and telling people to shut up, etc). The teacher said, "He's just really Buddhist". Now, we're all thinking, "Buddhist??! And he yells at people like that? Yeah right." But, what I've been told is that Buddhist will always defend their beliefs. But there was a better way for him to do that.
This thing continues a few days later when he says something calmly and nicely and this guy felt it necessary to say, and I forget what exactly we were discussing, "like we really need any more Buddhists in this world." That was really unnecessary. And the only reason he said it was to 'slap him in the face'.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:46 pm
And you see, that's exactly the opposite of what good argument and taste dictate. In a nutshell, acceptance and understanding are...the word I'm looking for must be 'integral'...to all productive social actions. -LD
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:14 pm
If the two people feel really strongly that their opinion is right there is no stopping it. Ex: Muslums and Jews. They both feel really strongly. Even if they completely understood how the other felt, they would still be bigoted. People will get defensive when confronted and that leads to misunderstandings. I find it really hard to understand why people don't understand things. I get the best grades in my classes and I don't understand why other kids just don't understand. I usually blame it on laziness, and not consentrating. For some people it is just impossible to grasp a difficult consept.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:18 pm
I see what you're saying, but is it necesarry to call each other stupid or yell at each other? No, it gets you no where.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:22 pm
That's the point society doesn't want to go anywhere. They are content in their ways. People are afraid of change for the most part, even if they agree its needed. I agree that it would be nice not to have people attacking eachother, but it's just not going to happen.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:48 pm
Not all at once. But give it some time, CariRae, and have a little faith. You'd be surprised how much people can surprise you. --- Heh. You know, guys, it's moments like this I think I'm coming to cherish most. Little disagreements about the relativity of peace, with His and Hers playing in the background (if you haven't seen it, you should), and my eyes tearing like a faucet.
This is friendship, you know? This wonderful, oft-agonizing feeling of being connected to another person.... I don't think I could trade it for anything. --- You know, I learned something yesterday. I was so busy with LRD that I almost forgot to post, but I guess it's better late than never, right?
But maybe a preface first. I decided to go to the mall later that day, with Kayla, and was totally thrilled about it. I was so happy, just so...I don't know, alive. I was hugging people and laughing with them, and every last one was happy to see me so happy.
When Timmy walked up to me at lunch, it nearly ruined my good mood. He said, in a plaintive tone, "Please stop." I didn't know what to say to that. So I just nodded. I just nodded, and heard 'okay', 'yeah', and 'sure' come out of my mouth. And he walked away.
But you know, the moment he said that, it was like a spell had been broken. I didn't want him suddenly. Not in the least. It's strange, isn't it? I don't want someone who can't stick up for themselves, or puts themselves in a box, or can't handle confrontation. We aren't as alike as I thought. I wish I could say I was relieved, but I'm not.
But it's going to be okay now. Finally, at long last: okay. --- The day before that, a friend pulled me aside and told me that I was being too flirtatious. Again, despite trying to explain myself, I felt like a fool. It was like a switch flicked on in my heart--it was time to change. I didn't flirt the rest of the day, but yesterday at school, I'm afraid I did. Well, change isn't an overnight thing for me.
But I went to the mall, and got a frap from Starbucks. We walked the mall and scoped, and I was so happy. I was picking stuff out for her, and making conversation, and dancing, just a little, to the music. I realized (and I swear I have more epiphanies at the mall than anyone I know) that some people were staring, and I didn't care. I felt so free, like I was just a part of the dance, and the least I could do is have fun.
I found that people stared...and smiled. I smiled back, and laughed, so happy to be there with my friend, and with people I enjoyed (obviously) being around. Once, even, I was walking/dancing (Tommy, I know you know what I mean), and I passed this really cute guy. Our eyes met, and I smiled. After he passed, I looked back, and at the same time, he moved to look back. Our eyes met and we smiled.
I think I understand now.
Before, in the classroom, I was flirting like it was a sport, playing keeps with amateurs while I'm a pro, and some who don't even know the rules of the game. I realize now that I can come across as an overly assertive a** (no pun intended), who has very little respect for the...distance of others. But that's not what real flirting is about: it's not about making another person blush, or feel awkward, or an effective, if backwards method of keeping others distant. In fact, the first two are really just part of the flirt. But flirting is revealing admiration to people you think truly deserve to know, people you want to get closer to. I had it all wrong; I think it was something I needed to be pushed towards, and thankfully, I had a friend to do just that. --- At the mall, I also realized, for about the millionth time that I worry too much. I think I asked Kayla about seventeen different times (that's an accurate count) if I'm annoying, or acting strange, or if I should relax, etcetera. She said something along the lines of--"No, you aren't annoying at all: in fact, you're one of the most fun people to be with here."
I'm not going to lie, that totally made my day. And then I realized what she meant--the only times she acted annoyed with me were those when I was pestering her with my self-doubt. Well, and when I called her Kayla-Kun. *laugh* Oh, but that girl is fun to hang out with. --- I think it's been a good couple of days. I've got a lot done, and I'm changing. Sometimes, I still feel like I'm going so fast that I leave myself behind, but lately...I've just wanted to be the best me I can be.
Thanks for everything guys. You mean the world to me.
Love and Vale, -Andrew
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:11 pm
Good lordy, like a match to gasoline... didn't think my little rant would carry so far.
I'd love to comment on everyone's thoughts and ideas but its about 10 after 2 and I think finally I'm going to head off to bed.
And if anyone cares I'm feeling much better now that the rant is out and done with.
the Lion
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:37 am
That's good. I'm glad--and I feel like this has been productive somehow. -LD
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:18 am
Oh, guys, I just found the quote from KareKano (His and Hers):
"Laughter, Anger, Worries, Love, Friendship, Competitiveness, Growth and Degeneration--All these emotions are packed within the doors of a classroom."
Beautiful, no? -Leavaros/Andrew
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:07 am
You guys, man... I dunno.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|