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 Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:32 am
On Animals Not Inventing New Words: proof? You can't really prove it. But I think aaarhus brings up a good point when he mentions new words aren't made up unless there is a need. Humanity is absolutely no different in that respect.
On Aligators Not Evolving: sorry, bio major can't let this slide. Boy, there are lots of misconceptions about evolution. Just because a species has been around for a long time doesn't mean it isn't evolving.
On "We pillage an area dry, then move on or build new ways to pillage" : so do nonhuman animals, actually. All creatures expand in population until the stress on their resources becomes so great, they begin to die off (or they relocate). Humans aren't unique in thier destructiveness. Heard of the deer population problems all over the US? Talk to any ecologist and they'll tell you how severe the damage has been in forests because of it. Heck, I've seen it myself. There's supposed to be understory in a forest. Where I live, it doesn't exist because of the deer inflation. xp
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:01 pm
Starlock On Animals Not Inventing New Words: proof? You can't really prove it. I was basing that conclusion on something I very vaguely remember, which, now that I try to remember, I'm not sure of. But it seemed right at the time sweatdrop Well, I'd like to emphasize at this point that my original statement did no rely on animals not having those characteristics. I meant that with those two things, we would inevitably develop more things in the future. But it was probably all reliant on our learning ability anyway; which is, by the way, quite unusual for an animal.
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:35 pm
Mechanism Starlock On Animals Not Inventing New Words: proof? You can't really prove it. I was basing that conclusion on something I very vaguely remember, which, now that I try to remember, I'm not sure of. But it seemed right at the time sweatdrop Well, I'd like to emphasize at this point that my original statement did no rely on animals not having those characteristics. I meant that with those two things, we would inevitably develop more things in the future. But it was probably all reliant on our learning ability anyway; which is, by the way, quite unusual for an animal. (nods) Yeah, our rate of progress is unusual. But again I think that's due to the fact we store information outside of our brains. Oral history is nutorious for transforming over time, and we'd have never reached our level of progress if it weren't for written language. I can't remember what book it was in that I read this idea in about the only significant difference being our ability to store info outside of our cerebrums... but I figure I should mention it wasn't exactly my idea. whee
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Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:16 am
Starlock On "We pillage an area dry, then move on or build new ways to pillage" : so do nonhuman animals, actually. All creatures expand in population until the stress on their resources becomes so great, they begin to die off (or they relocate). Humans aren't unique in thier destructiveness. Heard of the deer population problems all over the US? Talk to any ecologist and they'll tell you how severe the damage has been in forests because of it. Heck, I've seen it myself. There's supposed to be understory in a forest. Where I live, it doesn't exist because of the deer inflation. xp But we don't die off. We continue, and continue, and continue. It never ends. As is consistent with me, I came back with an intelligent opinion to help ward off the feeling that I might be a gibbering idiot. Now if I could just remember what it was...ah, yes. We are, as far as I know, the only animal that has forgotten what it's like to be an animal. Most animals promote the survival of the fittest, and if you're not fit enough, too bad, so sad, better luck next incarnation. Humans promote the survival of every damn thing, and if you're not fit enough, then by God, we'll put human-created supplements in you to make you fit enough. We're the only animal narcissistic enough to create ods to remember our every action, and we've forgotten that the past is the past, and should be forgotten. We're the only animal that can't take care of itself without a car and money. Have you ever seen a wolf or a hummingbird using a barter system? And if anyone here is living on their own, and still doesn't own a car, that wasn't directed at you. I don't have one either. We're the only animal that creates chemicals that change our inherent moods, then make rules so that we can't use them, then have underground markets to get same illegal substances. Hell, on that note, as far as I know, we're the only animal that makes and enforces rules designed to keep a numbstruck mind in that condition. God shouldn't have worried when Adam and Eve took a bite of the Tree of Knowledge, because we forgot it now. We're the only animal that has allowed itself to be driven by our corporate masters. We're like cattle. We're completely mindless when it comes to our own survival. 9/11 and the London ings, as well as Madrid, are proof of that. Good God Almighty, the people behind these attacks are more on top of their own animal instincts than we are! There are more reasons, I think, but I've gone on long enough, I feel. You're all approaching this from an angle far too in-the-box for me. We're almost like the rest, except we ask questions. And I'm almost like you, except that I expect answers.
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Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:52 pm
Cougar Draven Starlock On "We pillage an area dry, then move on or build new ways to pillage" : so do nonhuman animals, actually. All creatures expand in population until the stress on their resources becomes so great, they begin to die off (or they relocate). Humans aren't unique in thier destructiveness. Heard of the deer population problems all over the US? Talk to any ecologist and they'll tell you how severe the damage has been in forests because of it. Heck, I've seen it myself. There's supposed to be understory in a forest. Where I live, it doesn't exist because of the deer inflation. xp But we don't die off. We continue, and continue, and continue. It never ends. It hasn't yet, but it will. In speaking with both professors and peers in biology, we all agree humanity has surpassed the carrying capacity of the environment, or if it hasn't, it will soon. Whenever this happens, it won't continue and people will die off. And, in certain areas in the world, this IS happening. Millions of people in the world are starving to death as I type this. It hasn't hit Western nations yet, but eventually, it probably will. Probably not quite in our lifetime (being optimistic) but probably a couple generations afterwards unless we start getting more environmental and get off our fossil fuel addiction. And no, you haven't come off as a gibbering idiot (laughs). I used to frequent regular ED forums and you're nowhere close to that. whee Cougar Draven We are, as far as I know, the only animal that has forgotten what it's like to be an animal. Most animals promote the survival of the fittest, and if you're not fit enough, too bad, so sad, better luck next incarnation. Humans promote the survival of every damn thing, and if you're not fit enough, then by God, we'll put human-created supplements in you to make you fit enough. I think this is partially true, but only for industrialized nations. None of what you said applies to the third world. People who still live off the land and all. Evolutionary processes still apply to humanity, although differently than they used to. Ironically, I can bet you all of our suplements will backfire in the end and cause either a watering-down of the gene pool and major genetic problems in the future, or when the technology crash happens, the people relying on supplements will die off and the third world will prevail. Don't get too far from Mother Earth, or she'll snap you back up for your ignorance. This is all conjecture of course, so who knows what'll really happen. The above also applies to some other comments you made about some people's inability to survive without socioeconomics. And boy, if I could, I'd reject the entire system and live like Earth wanted us to in the first place. Simply, treading lightly, and knowing how to coax what you need from the land. Not in this life, though... twenty-one years of domestication shoots that idea out of the water (sniffles). Hahah. Domestic humans. Yup. That's what they are. They'll be the first to die off, probably. xd Cougar Draven and we've forgotten that the past is the past, and should be forgotten. I think you should make this into a discussion topic here. Just a suggestion. About how humanity relates to its past, ya know. Or I can do it if you don't want to. =) Based off some other stuff in your post that I didn't want to quote to avoid clog, a lot of what you mentioned were socio/cultural things. Of course cultural things are going to be more unique; animal cultures tend to be that way. Ours has, from our perspective, more complexity and contradictions as you point out.
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Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:22 pm
Starlock And no, you haven't come off as a gibbering idiot (laughs). I used to frequent regular ED forums and you're nowhere close to that. whee Thank you. whee I guess I'm more a student of sociology and economics than I am of biology. I always preferred chemistry to biology, anyways. More blowing stuff up. And yeah, I think I'll make that topic. Get established as someone who can come up with stuff too, instead of just arguing it. whee
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:45 am
I love what you said about the Tree of Knowledge. ha ha... It's SO true! As a society, we have such short memories! And capitalism & commercialism take full advantage of that. I think that's partially what makes mankind so ignorant - Short memories. A great example is that very few people remember that the US put Saddam in power in Iraq back in the early 1980's. Or that hemp was a huge farming & manufacturing industry in the US prior to the 1920's. Those are both seperate topics though which already have many many threads within ED.
Good point about Bartering, too. I don't know of any animals that barter! That's easily proven I think... or I'm just fully ignorant of any other animals that do (which is ALWAYS possible).
As for cars and jobs... what about amoeba? I thought I saw in a Far Side comic once that amoeba's live just like humans, do. ha ha... j/k Gotta love the Far Side, though... wish they woulda done a mind-numbing cartoon, though.
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:13 pm
Is it just me..or have you not said the magic word? That word that actually coverages every single one of your ideas... CONSCIOUSNESS I believe this is the main quality that separates us from all the animals..
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:07 pm
See... but I don't think you can PROVE to me that animals DON'T have a conscience. Since we don't speak their language, there's no way to ask. Since they haven't developed a written language or even evolved the means to use a written language, there's no way for them to communicate it to us. ESPECIALLY when you're talking about the large ocean mammals like dolphins and whales. Or if you're talking about snakes & lizards... they're so alien to us mammals that our consciencenesses may be different.
I like the statement about animals not having writing to record things outside of our brain & share collectively.
I'm always amazed when I watch my rats behaviors change over time. They usually start off very skittish and always staying closeby... and then after adventuring on the floor once or twice they suddenly change their behavior to be "floor rats" instead of "lap rats." They do this with many behaviors as they learn new tricks or new territories.
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:21 am
Lesidia Animals live by means of their instencts, while humans are so powerful on earth that we can survive by suppressing them. However, we do not know for sure: is it the human instinct to supress other instincts? Or is it a trait brought on by civilization?
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 4:01 pm
breaking of dawn Lesidia Animals live by means of their instencts, while humans are so powerful on earth that we can survive by suppressing them. However, we do not know for sure: is it the human instinct to supress other instincts? Or is it a trait brought on by civilization? But there's no natural equilibrium, at least not as far as I can see. The human race is taking over the entire planet. I'm sure that eventually, we'll take over all the land that we can inhabit without modifications...then we'll start modifying what's left so we can take it. I'm sorry if I seem cynical...but right now, there are only two people who I'd try to save if World War III started right now...and I'm not one of them.
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Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 6:25 pm
There is an equilibrium. All of nature is a DYNAMIC equilibrium, and I think people forget that sometimes. And as I said before (did I say it here or somewhere else? I forget) most people I've talked to think humanity has either surpassed or is surpassing the carrying capacity of the environment. In other words, we're surpassing the maximum number of us Earth can sustain. Eventually there WILL be a population crash. It happens to every single life form on the face of the Earth, and it will happen to us. Nobody is going to put down a global population limit and actually enforce it. So... from that end, we're screwed. Plenty of people will survive this population crash, but billions won't.
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Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:46 am
boku_wa_kage Is it just me..or have you not said the magic word? That word that actually coverages every single one of your ideas... CONSCIOUSNESS I believe this is the main quality that separates us from all the animals.. Okay. Prove that animals don't have consciousness.
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Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:47 am
Starlock There is an equilibrium. All of nature is a DYNAMIC equilibrium, and I think people forget that sometimes. And as I said before (did I say it here or somewhere else? I forget) most people I've talked to think humanity has either surpassed or is surpassing the carrying capacity of the environment. In other words, we're surpassing the maximum number of us Earth can sustain. Eventually there WILL be a population crash. It happens to every single life form on the face of the Earth, and it will happen to us. Nobody is going to put down a global population limit and actually enforce it. So... from that end, we're screwed. Plenty of people will survive this population crash, but billions won't. That'll be fun to watch, honestly.
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Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 11:09 am
Interesting from a scientific standpoing, I suppose. But I don't think we'll see it in our lifetime.
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