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 Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 5:17 pm
kp is dcvi crystal_pepzi kp is dcvi Quote: I've seen it with creationists, sexists, and especially pro-lifers. They're so devoted to their beleifs that they just won't listen. Oh really? Then ask me why i'm in the guild. Okay, why are you in this guild? *braces herself* Just reconsidering things. While in debate I have some qualms with your methods, I don't mind you as a person. You're a pretty cool guy all told. And you're open minded. It's always a relief to see someone who's willing to look at the other side, contrary to idiots that close their ears and start spouting weak arguments and ad hom when their arguments start to fall. Even if you don't change sides, respect +10.
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 6:16 pm
PhaedraMcSpiffy When I got kicked out of the PLG for saying insulting things in the thread about pro-choice vegetarians*, one person said that if I was really pro-choice, I would support their choice to take mine away from me. How idiotic can you get?!
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 6:26 pm
When the logical conclusion of her (lifer's) thinking results in the idea that anything, and everything can be considered forfeit in the protection of human life (time, body parts, money, life savings, computer, etc.etc.) I'd have to think that all lifers who use this particular argument really haven't thought it out very much.
Either that, or they are honest-to-god communists (And this isn't insulting, btw, but I really think that logic follows a communistic line of thinking). Or someone supporting a governmental institution that follows something along those lines.
Which would be interesting, but I actually haven't met any pro-life communists yet. Or at least, I don't know that they're communists.
EDIT: That said, I once PM'd a lifer about her pro-life sig. At first, she bitched at me about PMing her for it... which I thought was odd, because she was essentially asking for it to be challenged. I pointed that out to her, and she acquiesed to a small discussion. Which ended up in essentially: "We all have our own beliefs, I might disagree with you... etc.etc. I still respect your right to your beliefs, etc.etc."
And then I thought... "Well, if that was really the case, wouldn't you be pro-choice?"
But still, that last conclusion seems to be what I get a lot from lifers I have discussions with. The civil responses, at least.
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 6:34 pm
Talon-chan Phaedra, I think that's really juvenile... at least the way you word it. The last time I was seriously concerned about a group of people I dislike spying on my publicly displayed conversations and sharing them amongst themselves in secret was elementary school. You act as though "trying to fugre all that out to 'beat' us" is a bad thing. It is the exact thing I advocate in the first post! It is the exact thing I think we, as a movement, should want! Also, it is possibly the best thing that can happen in the abortion debate as a whole. I want pro-lifers to understand pro-choice arguments intimately and make the best possible counter arguments they can. It means that our defense is then the best possible we can provide and it makes our success all the more meaningful. As a movement we do not want to get the low hanging fruit, we want to have the best and most intelligent discourse possible. For example, if the best a pro-lifer can provide is "women need to face the consequences" it is clear he or she does not understand the implications of that view and the total lack of concern for fetuses and their rights it expresses. Defeating such an argument really isn't something to rejoice over. However, when we grant a fetus the right to life and afford it all the rights of all persons and still show abortion is an acceptable course of action, this is a victory worth rejoicing. So really, if KP were here to "spy" on us with the intent of "defeating" a pro-choice view... all the more power to him! I'd have to agree with Talon here. I LIKE having pro-life people reading whatever I write, and later bringing points that I might not have previously thought of, or refuted as an excercise of my own debating skills and as a way to test my logic and reasoning skills. Being challenged is good- it educates me, and it educates them, especially if they get a better grasp of what pro-choice is arguing for at the same time.
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 7:15 pm
Reinna Astarel Talon-chan Phaedra, I think that's really juvenile... at least the way you word it. The last time I was seriously concerned about a group of people I dislike spying on my publicly displayed conversations and sharing them amongst themselves in secret was elementary school. You act as though "trying to fugre all that out to 'beat' us" is a bad thing. It is the exact thing I advocate in the first post! It is the exact thing I think we, as a movement, should want! Also, it is possibly the best thing that can happen in the abortion debate as a whole. I want pro-lifers to understand pro-choice arguments intimately and make the best possible counter arguments they can. It means that our defense is then the best possible we can provide and it makes our success all the more meaningful. As a movement we do not want to get the low hanging fruit, we want to have the best and most intelligent discourse possible. For example, if the best a pro-lifer can provide is "women need to face the consequences" it is clear he or she does not understand the implications of that view and the total lack of concern for fetuses and their rights it expresses. Defeating such an argument really isn't something to rejoice over. However, when we grant a fetus the right to life and afford it all the rights of all persons and still show abortion is an acceptable course of action, this is a victory worth rejoicing. So really, if KP were here to "spy" on us with the intent of "defeating" a pro-choice view... all the more power to him! I'd have to agree with Talon here. I LIKE having pro-life people reading whatever I write, and later bringing points that I might not have previously thought of, or refuted as an excercise of my own debating skills and as a way to test my logic and reasoning skills. Being challenged is good- it educates me, and it educates them, especially if they get a better grasp of what pro-choice is arguing for at the same time. I third those sentiments. I feel that it is vital that our arguments are criticized -- constructively, of course. Criticism forces us to constantly rethink and rework our own stances, allowing us to improve upon and, perhaps, further appreciate the arguments/debates we have. I continually welcome criticism, even if I do not always take it in stride right off the get-go.
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 8:49 pm
Ok...
if this KP guy is sincere about reconsidering beliefs, then I wish him well in that hard journey and most of all, wish that nobody else pushes him to believe what is truest and deepest in him as he is discovering these things. I don't say this in the hope that he accepts "pro-choice" later on because that would be pushing things in my perspective. I don't even really care about "the catholic thing", or any religious thing under any other brand name, until religion tries to take over politics exclusively. Your body, your mind, your life journey, good luck!
It's my fault for not interpreting his presence at the guild as genuine earlier, in the assumption of truth, but a lot of that is related to the fact that I'm not "in the know" of what's going on. With the recent turn in events, it's easy to "not be in the know" of things and conclude that he's a pro-lifer spying and patrolling the "controversial" threads about pro-life guild to make sure all conversation is of squeaky clean, pg-13 standards with rainbows, hearts, bunny rabbits and butterflies, yellow brick roads and smiling faces, fuzzy fleece sky-blue blankets and waterfalls with flying unicorns.
But to be honest, I don't think this way is going to work so well, considering past guild actions.
You'd think that talking in the ED abortion threads would accomplish the objective better then having pro-lifers, or undecided members participate in the guild. Remember of past instances where pro-choicers were banned in the pro-life guild, and a pro-choice/pro-life straddler was dissing another pro-choicer in the pro-life guild. It's one thing when declared pro-lifers join the pro-choice guild which is bad enough as it is. But it feels like undecided members who joined our guild, only to align with the other guild are more vulnerable a status because they could be accused of being backstabby, or wishy-washy like that other girl.
It's a lovely thing to know that there are more pro-choicers who welcome dissent, constructive criticism, critiques on their opinions and perspectives... again, wouldn't participating in an ED abortion thread help with quite immediate feedback from opposing viewpoints? Ok ok, so there may be n00bs who hit and run with one liners in the thread. But, there was, one time, an abortion debate guild, where both pro-life and choice guild discussed the same topics. It was used for a little while, then that got old quick. hmm... so that was an experiment that did not work out too well...
However, having separate guilds seem to be an experiment that has lasted a long time... many years, in fact.
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 9:05 pm
We've definitely had dissent and friction between the PLG and PCG guilds and members, but frankly, it's always been to the disadvantage of the person with the viewpoint that opposes the guild he/she's in- I think.
By 'spying' I actually thought what was meant was 'looking on our arguments'- which I've never regarded as a bad thing. "Looking on controversial threads and bitching about them", on the other hand, is something entirely different, and somewhat something more to be concerned about. Though, on the other hand, Veled (or any other mod) doesn't really have to acquiese to any of the complaints unless it's really thought that it's rule-breaking, or report-worthy, so I wouldn't worry.
As for criticism, well, I'd have to say the PLG members people think might give literate, constructive rebuttals to arguments have for the most part holed up in their guild, and rarely participate in the ADT. Why, I'm not sure, but when one does come out and post some, it's cause for some ... excitement? And mobbing? *shrug*
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Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 6:30 pm
Talon The last time I was seriously concerned about a group of people I dislike spying on my publicly displayed conversations and sharing them amongst themselves in secret was elementary school. Call me paranoid, but I can't see how I was being juvenile. I've had people talk about me behind my back all my life, and it may be juvenile, but it really does hurt and it really does leave you with a scarred ability to trust. I was, for reasons I still can't figure out, emotioanlly ripped to shreds by those little brats. People thought I was going to go crazy. I'm on the defensive all the time. I have a tendency to form me-vs.-them attitudes. I have never been able to belong to a group or team because of it. It's who I am, now. *shrugs* I'd LIKE to just say I don't give a s**t, but I can't just be a hermit. It was middle school, by the way, not elementary school. Quote: I want pro-lifers to understand pro-choice arguments intimately and make the best possible counter arguments they can. It means that our defense is then the best possible we can provide and it makes our success all the more meaningful. As a movement we do not want to get the low hanging fruit, we want to have the best and most intelligent discourse possible. Oh, I understand. Still gives me the creeps, though. It's irrational, but it's what I feel. It's kinda hard to think oneself out of something like that. Quote: For example, if the best a pro-lifer can provide is "women need to face the consequences" it is clear he or she does not understand the implications of that view and the total lack of concern for fetuses and their rights it expresses. Defeating such an argument really isn't something to rejoice over. However, when we grant a fetus the right to life and afford it all the rights of all persons and still show abortion is an acceptable course of action, this is a victory worth rejoicing. Yeah. I've always hated the fact that it's always about "Is the fetus alive?" Of course it's alive. But we still have a valid argument for why its rights should not be above those of the woman. Bodily domain barely comes up in an argument at all! And lifers are usually unprepared or just plain don't understand it. Quote: So really, if KP were here to "spy" on us with the intent of "defeating" a pro-choice view... all the more power to him! *shrugs* At least he tries? It's more than I could ever do. People tell me I'd make a great lawyer, but the truth is: I make it too personal. I can't even stomach pro-life people, to be honest. I mean, I tried before to understand them, but I really can't. Quote: It's kinda unfortunate when you guess the right answer then immediately discount it. Really? I've never heard of someone actually considering switching sides, unless some kind of traumatic event happens. ...I guess I've been a horrible representative for my side, then, right? ...Don't mind me. I'm bitter and spiteful and immature a lot of the time. The rest of us are good people, though. I guess I might have some good qualities, too, but... they're kinda hidden. Anyway, choicers seem to have a bad reputation for being heartless. I probably am, but most choicers I know definately are not. In one recent thread, I was the only one here to actually say that I hate (certain) pro-lifers, while eveyone else spoke in terms of being frustrated with them, but hopeful. The thing is, we don't get to be emotional and touchy-feely very often. We've gotta use logic and reasoning to win our argument. We've gotta numb ourselves to the gory pictures and the hateful names. We numb ourselves to appeals to emotion. I can't even see a picture of a cute baby anymore without getting cynical and annoyed. We're not all as contemptible as I've been. I'm sorry I've been stupid and quick-tempered. Why? I'm feeling kinda clueless...
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