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Sinew
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:33 pm


this is one of those debates that will never cease to be contemporary. the fact of the matter is- there isn't quite any one point in time where the "thing" becomes a human. obviously, the baby isn't any less a baby 3 seconds before it's born. and it certainly doesnt look human at any early stage of pregnancy. it all depends on when you think the baby actaully receives the soul. the second it receives the soul, technically, it has a right to life, should receive a social security number, and can be considered to be murdered when it's killed. i think the right to life (if there is a life) trumps the right to bodily privacy... in my opinion. if the baby however, is not another person, but in actuality, just only a part of the mother, then yes, she has a right to cut it off just like her toenails.

now if the mother is under serious risk of dying from having a baby, or if there's another excuse (rape, incest, etc.) then there's a decent arguement. i dont think i would ever vote for a straight up pro-life bill without provisions.

badnarik had a point but, i think we're pretty far away from forcing abortions due to overpopulation. (hopefully it'll take a long while to fill up all the empty space in the mountain time zone)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:11 pm


Tanasha


Indeed, but for them it's the intentional act of killing another human, and feel compeled to intervene on the grounds that murder is grounds to intervene. To them it is murder, and to have it be legal is no better than legalizing murder itself.

It all comes back to the crux of their argument - the personification of a parasite that one day might become a person. Too many people on the pro-choice side fail to realize that, and it makes winning the argument that much harder. Understanding your enemy leads to success, while anger ultimately leads to failue - keep your own emotions in check while you enrage others. ... I should probably actually read Sun Tsu's the Art of War sometime... <.< >.>

Yes, I understand that. It's just that biological terms don't support their arguement. I also follow the philosphy of "I think therefore I am." Untill it is thinking rationally I can't call it human as the ability to think is a key to our species and therefore it isn't murder untill it can think rational thoughts. I.E. identifying that it exists.


And, yes, I do understand their position, I just don't see a need to argue it at this moment. And yes, I suggest you read Sun Tsu, it's a good book. Though, it isn't actually his book. The actual title is Sun Tsu. It's just become The Art of War in English Translations.


Quote:

Same with those anti-drug ads, or the "truth" campaign agaisnt cigarettes. (Although those truth ads aren't nearly as bad as the rest.)

It's all designed to whip people up into groups of blind emotion, because those groups will stop thinking about what they hear and will follow orders blindly. In any conflict you can use soldiers, bodies, or both; Soldiers need to be smart, bodies need to be dumb. Guess which has a bigger impact on politics - Skilled and rational debate, or a large voting block?

Ah, but I'm ranting again.

That's why I tend not to like those ads. Which is why I wish they were actually more information based rather than scare tactic. That way people would make an informed decision not to smoke, not just because T.V. says the big bad goverment is going to get you.

On that note, I laugh at our new food pyramid. I never knew we were supposed to eat excercise.

Jahoclave


MercuryChaos

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:13 am


Libertarian2008
wouldnt seem like it would cost alot of extra money, It'd just be penciled under murder or malpractice and people will be punished if caught. I can almost understand first trimester abortions being legal, but during the second trimester fetuses become thinking creatures. (my brother played with my mom when he was 5-6 months in the womb)
I think it would solve alot if people understood what the morning after pill was (that it's not an abortion pill, it takes 2-3 days for the egg to be fertilized and the morning after pill prevents this proccess from occuring) if that was better understood i think there would be less teen pregnancies(which im sure make up for most abortions)

I always laugh when I hear peole talking about the "abortion pill"... because it's so inaccurate. It also annoys me when people parade around Planned Parenthood clinics with those pictures of aborted babies, first because only about 4% of Planned parenthood's clients come there for abortions (the rest come for birth control [which prevents unwanted pregnancies] and OB/GYN exams.) Secondly, most of those pictures they're carrying arouns are of thord trimester abortions, which aren't legal in most places anyway. I do wish people would get their facts straight.
Anyhow, I think that abortion should be allowed without any restrictions up until the third trimester. At that point, the fetus is viable in most cases (meaning it has developed a nervous system and can feel pain.) At that point the only reason it should be allowed is if having the baby would pose a health risk to the mother or the baby. Also, the third trimester would be when the fetus is more likely to survive a premature birth, because it's more able to survive outside the womb. They've ceased to be simply a parasite in my book, and moved into the realm of "potential humans".
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:40 am


Sinew

Also, many libertarians would support eliminating regulations and restrictions to "streamline the adoption process, getting government out of the way of the best solution to unwanted pregnancy... oppose tax funding for abortion... (and) oppose federal mandates that require companies provide abortion as a health care benefit" (Badnarik).


My position exactly-- and I also happen to be "pro-life".

MrsMica


GIoom
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:57 pm


I think the federal government has a decent time cut off at the moment. I don't really want to change that. Basically this one of the very few areas where I support the status quo. I think that women should be able to have abortions if they see fit in some of the early stages of pregnacy. It's not like it's a simple surgery. Women pay the price in more than one way, so I say that if a women wants to deal with the cost and the emotional/physical pain they should be able to. I don't think anyboby really has the right to judge the women who get abortion. So I'm not really pro-abortion, I'm pro-choice.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:31 am


There isn't a word yet for what I am.

I am politically pro-choice.

My personal preference is pro-life.

XiangMiyu


GIoom
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:40 pm


XiangMiyu
There isn't a word yet for what I am.

I am politically pro-choice.

My personal preference is pro-life.
I guessing here. So you believe that people should be able to have an abortion by law, but you are against having one yourself?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:04 am


XiangMiyu
There isn't a word yet for what I am.

I am politically pro-choice.

My personal preference is pro-life.


That means you're pro-choice. What choice you make doesn't affect that.

Tanasha


XiangMiyu

PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:13 am


I am against having one myself, yes. Also I don't think it should be a knee jerk reaction or RELIED upon as birth control.

"Oh we don't have a condom? That's ok I'll just get an abortion."

To me, that's just not right. When my sister who was EXTREMELY pro-life suddenly flipped and decided to have one, I had concerns she was being coerced by her boyfriend. I didn't think she should have one then, because I offered to adopt. Personally I feel that choices such as giving the child up for adoptions in a healthy woman should be explored first.

I think abortions should be done for heatlh reasons, a response to rape, or incest. The relying upon it as a form of birth control, or just because "I don't want to be incovienced with a child right now" to me are wrong. There are so many good people wanting a child who can't have them.

On the same hand the law has no right to dictate to me, my sister or any woman if she can nor can not have an abortion OR enforce the above restrictions. I think a woman or women in general should be responsible to do that themselves.

I don't agree with women having abortions as I truly belive they are killing a living being, but I fully support thier right to do so as I am not the boss of them.

Hope that further explains my position.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:01 pm


XiangMiyu
I am against having one myself, yes. Also I don't think it should be a knee jerk reaction or RELIED upon as birth control.

"Oh we don't have a condom? That's ok I'll just get an abortion."

To me, that's just not right. When my sister who was EXTREMELY pro-life suddenly flipped and decided to have one, I had concerns she was being coerced by her boyfriend. I didn't think she should have one then, because I offered to adopt. Personally I feel that choices such as giving the child up for adoptions in a healthy woman should be explored first.

I think abortions should be done for heatlh reasons, a response to rape, or incest. The relying upon it as a form of birth control, or just because "I don't want to be incovienced with a child right now" to me are wrong. There are so many good people wanting a child who can't have them.

On the same hand the law has no right to dictate to me, my sister or any woman if she can nor can not have an abortion OR enforce the above restrictions. I think a woman or women in general should be responsible to do that themselves.

I don't agree with women having abortions as I truly belive they are killing a living being, but I fully support thier right to do so as I am not the boss of them.

Hope that further explains my position.

yup, i think you and 99.9% of pro-choicers feel that its wrong to get an abortion, but it doesnt trump out a right to control your own body.

thats the key factor to the debate. whats more important, the baby's right to life or the woman's right to choice. i cant think of another debate that has such a lose-lose feeling tied to either answer.

Sinew
Vice Captain


Periathien

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:39 pm


I am pro-choice. Don't get me wrong; I hate the idea of killing what might have a soul. When it comes down to it, though, if I were to ever get raped or something like that (God forbid), I'd like the opportunity to not have to go through the pain of childbirth because it was never on my to do list in the first place. I don't want children. In the end I don't know if I'd choose to get an abortion or put my baby up for adoption (because it's not fair to the baby to be raised by a teenage mother), but I would still like to have that choice. Thus, pro-choice.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:52 am


Periathien
I am pro-choice. Don't get me wrong; I hate the idea of killing what might have a soul. When it comes down to it, though, if I were to ever get raped or something like that (God forbid), I'd like the opportunity to not have to go through the pain of childbirth because it was never on my to do list in the first place. I don't want children. In the end I don't know if I'd choose to get an abortion or put my baby up for adoption (because it's not fair to the baby to be raised by a teenage mother), but I would still like to have that choice. Thus, pro-choice.


well, in terms of fairness, i think the baby would probably prefer living with foster parents than not living at all. adoptioin doesnt always give the baby the best life, but its certainly the most attractive solution to me.

since you seem to think that unborn children have souls at some point (some people don't, i can't think of a way to prove unborn babies do have souls) i have trouble trying to imagine how avoiding an inconvenience (admittedly a very painful, somewhat risky inconvenience) is more important than a human life.

women have rights over their own bodies, but is the baby part of the mother or its own body with its own rights?

Sinew
Vice Captain


Tanasha

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:26 pm


Sinew
women have rights over their own bodies, but is the baby part of the mother or its own body with its own rights?


I see it as a question of the rights of the mother versus the rights of the fetus.

Does the fetus have the right to do harm to the mother for nine months, followed by a short period of severe harm and suffering? Does the mother have the right to defend herself from said harm and suffering at the cost of the fetus's dubious life?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:16 am


Tanasha
Sinew
women have rights over their own bodies, but is the baby part of the mother or its own body with its own rights?


I see it as a question of the rights of the mother versus the rights of the fetus.

Does the fetus have the right to do harm to the mother for nine months, followed by a short period of severe harm and suffering? Does the mother have the right to defend herself from said harm and suffering at the cost of the fetus's dubious life?

That's a very interesting way to put it. I meant no offense by what I wrote earlier, and looking back on it, I didn't exactly communicate what i meant to say. There are reasons that I disagree with the whole adoption thing as well. That's why this would be such a difficult choice for me. I'd rather the baby not live than have to spend the most important years of their lives possibly getting abused or raped or something worse. I'd like to be able to spare them from that. If I had complete faith in the adoption process, I don't think I would have an issue with having the baby (even with it being an extreme poblem for me and my future), but I don't for good reason. I don't know if unborn children have souls and never specified that i believe that they do because I don't. I'm very much a thinking person and occasionally doubt the existence of souls altogether. I used the word "if" and meant it.

Periathien


Sinew
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:16 pm


Periathien
Tanasha
Sinew
women have rights over their own bodies, but is the baby part of the mother or its own body with its own rights?


I see it as a question of the rights of the mother versus the rights of the fetus.

Does the fetus have the right to do harm to the mother for nine months, followed by a short period of severe harm and suffering? Does the mother have the right to defend herself from said harm and suffering at the cost of the fetus's dubious life?

That's a very interesting way to put it. I meant no offense by what I wrote earlier, and looking back on it, I didn't exactly communicate what i meant to say. There are reasons that I disagree with the whole adoption thing as well. That's why this would be such a difficult choice for me. I'd rather the baby not live than have to spend the most important years of their lives possibly getting abused or raped or something worse. I'd like to be able to spare them from that. If I had complete faith in the adoption process, I don't think I would have an issue with having the baby (even with it being an extreme poblem for me and my future), but I don't for good reason. I don't know if unborn children have souls and never specified that i believe that they do because I don't. I'm very much a thinking person and occasionally doubt the existence of souls altogether. I used the word "if" and meant it.


*nod* i can respect that opinion, but i'll continue to hold my own (although a tad pacifist) i think i would rather a baby live and be risk abuse than die if it was alive in the first place... and i'll echo the "if" because i suppose none of us know for sure the nature of souls. Until we do, any government policy will seem evil to a great deal of people.

Quote:
you can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time - lincoln
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